Stark name will cease to exist - Spoilers

[Lord_Ravenstone]

5 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

My point was that nobody in the grand scheme of things cares about Bear Island. It's got to a point where the Mormont women can be entirely elusive about who the fathers of their children are and still inherit, because as a distant and poor island off the mainland coast it doesn't have significance.

It's important to note that Westeros is a fiercely patriarchal society where women are second class citizens. This is cruel, sexist and unfair I freely admit, but our only evidence of a son taking the family name of his mother comes from a quiet backwater and a story told to Jon by a woman who wants to get in his pants. We might wish it were otherwise, but legally speaking the Stark name will become extinct when this generation dies of old age. 

It's not just there either. The Cale is just as patriarchal but they're cool with Harrold taking the Arryn name if Robert Arryn dies.

 

It was also suggested in the North (Bran's counsellors) that Beren Tallhart take the House name of his mother in order to inherit Hornwood and Hornwood is actually a significant holding so what you say doesn't hold water.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 20. 8. 2016 at 2:22 PM, TheCasualObserver said:

As far as I can tell the Stark name is finished. The North is not bear island and we've yet to see any kind of legitimate matrilineal marriage. If Sansa or Arya have children, they will have the names of their father, not the mother. Rickon is dead, Jon is a Targaryen (and will have to keep that name if he wants to be king at any point) Bran cannot have chiildren and Sansa and Arya are girls. RIP House Stark.

Jon is not a Targaryen. Not by name or blood. He doesn't want to be KIng either way so at this point stil he got Stark blood in any case.

 

16 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I think I know and maybe you to where this is going after all, atleast for a while.

If you mean Jon and Sansa. No, they won't go there. Funny thing even with his status he was always like Stark, acting and behaving this way so he was always Stark in way even to the point of getting killed. If they make him go Targaryen way, doing incest, babies, sit on iron throne, ride a dragon...yeah not a fan of this. I like him the way he is Snow and going against stigma of being bastard just like Tyrion of being dwarf.

[Darksky]

^err he's got as much Targaryen blood as Stark blood.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 18/8/2016 at 3:55 AM, The Arthur Smith said:

however they won't take on the Stark name.

That is not true. A woman can be a Lady of her own right and pass to her children her name and her inheritance. So if  Sansa is a Lady of her own right and for example marry Harrion Karstark her children can inherit WF having the Stark name.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Not by name or blood

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

he got Stark blood in any case.

Jon is literally 50% Stark and 50% Targaryen, blood has nothing to do with someone's wish.

 

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, Darksky said:

^err he's got as much Targaryen blood as Stark blood.

He is half Stark and half Targaryen not just Targaryen. That's the point. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

4 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Jon is not a Targaryen. Not by name or blood. He doesn't want to be KIng either way so at this point stil he got Stark blood in any case.

 

If you mean Jon and Sansa. No, they won't go there. Funny thing even with his status he was always like Stark, acting and behaving this way so he was always Stark in way even to the point of getting killed. If they make him go Targaryen way, doing incest, babies, sit on iron throne, ride a dragon...yeah not a fan of this. I like him the way he is Snow and going against stigma of being bastard just like Tyrion of being dwarf.

Jon is a Targaryen by blood. That has been pretty much a given and now confirmed for the other .01%.

The show can and will go where they want. Of course this is speculation but I would think at this point her going with LF would be so stupid after all that he as done to her, that and the Hound is headed North and can and most likely will tell all that LF was the one who betrayed Ned which led to his death, starting this whole damn thing.

[Mandzipop]

2 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

He is half Stark and half Targaryen not just Targaryen. That's the point. 

You could say that all of Ned's children were only half Stark as Cat was a Tully. None of Rhaegar's children were full Targaryan. In fact none of the Targaryan's are full Targaryan as they have other blood mixed in.

[Future Null Infinity]

8 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

The show can and will go where they want. Of course this is speculation but I would think at this point her going with LF would be so stupid after all that he as done to her, that and the Hound is headed North and can and most likely will tell all that LF was the one who betrayed Ned which led to his death, starting this whole damn thing.

IMO, at this stage of the story, I'm fully expecting everyone to go crazy, the tale started with some innocent people, and because they were innocent in the brutal world of GRRM they got killed, beheaded, raped and stabbed so they became darker in order to survive (like Daenerys, Arya and Sansa), I think it's the theme of the story :"Innocence doesn't work in Planetos, innocence doesn't give free pass in the story" (in contrast with LOTR maybe?) and because of her early innocence and brutal story, Sansa was the first character to know the hard  truth so I expect that she will go the LF (I don't think she will betray Jon but she will not stay in WF) and Baelish is the best player in the story and he's alive for a reason and there is a reason why the stories of those two are entangled from the beginning, I even have suspicions that things will not end very well between Jon and Daenerys

[A Ghost of Someone]

5 hours ago, Future Null Infinity said:

IMO, at this stage of the story, I'm fully expecting everyone to go crazy, the tale started with some innocent people, and because they were innocent in the brutal world of GRRM they got killed, beheaded, raped and stabbed so they became darker in order to survive (like Daenerys, Arya and Sansa), I think it's the theme of the story :"Innocence doesn't work in Planetos, innocence doesn't give free pass in the story" (in contrast with LOTR maybe?) and because of her early innocence and brutal story, Sansa was the first character to know the hard  truth so I expect that she will go the LF (I don't think she will betray Jon but she will not stay in WF) and Baelish is the best player in the story and he's alive for a reason and there is a reason why the stories of those two are entangled from the beginning, I even have suspicions that things will not end very well between Jon and Daenerys

Like I said, the show is its own beast and as they have proven, any little thing that tickles their fancy, they will do. Sansa with LF though, willingly would be over the top.

[TheCasualObserver]

On 8/21/2016 at 4:43 AM, Lord_Ravenstone said:

Jon has been legitimized as a Stark and no one knows he's a tart nor would anyone believe him. Also there's already been a non-Stark who took the Stark name. Bael the Bard's bastard.

If the series ends with Jon on the throne then he will have no choice other than to take the Targ name. I think I mentioned upthread that Bael's son isn't exactly a good legal precedent; it happened millennia ago and we have no reason to suspect it's true at all - it was a story Ygritte used to flirt with Jon. The naming conventions of an entire society cannot change on a whim. 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

6 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

If the series ends with Jon on the throne then he will have no choice other than to take the Targ name. I think I mentioned upthread that Bael's son isn't exactly a good legal precedent; it happened millennia ago and we have no reason to suspect it's true at all - it was a story Ygritte used to flirt with Jon. The naming conventions of an entire society cannot change on a whim. 

The point you're missing is that they haven't changed.  

It's statistically impossible (ok nothing technically speaking is statistically impossible but we could say the odds are millions to one) that in the thousands of years of the Stark name that there hasn't been at least one case where the name went through a female line.  For there to ALWAYS be a direct male heir to the Stark name for that long would be incredibly unlikely.  

And this is and has always been the case for societies with patriarchal inheritance.  When the name is considered of the highest importance, it will pass through a female to her sons when necessary, regardless of who she marries.  It's still pretty damn patriarchal (except for Dorne).

[braveniler58]

Personally, I think Jon Snow will become Jaehaerys Stark (or whatever his real first name is). A song of ice and fire. He's both, so it makes sense for his name to reflect both. He could take the Targaryen last name, but I don't think he will. He may not have been treated the same as the Stark kids, but he was raised as a Stark. He's the King in the North. At this point, I don't see him taking the Targaryen name, but he may honor the name his mother gave him, which I hope is Jaehaerys. So, half fire half ice, plus the Stark line continues. King Jaehaerys Stark. 

[Runaway Penguin]

On 18. 8. 2016 at 7:10 PM, thi4f said:

House Stark will survive.

Better question is, what happens to Tyrell, Martell and Baratheon? Because in books all three are alive & well.

Tyrells are numerous. Someone survived. Martells have bastards and are moreover fully matrilineal. Baratherons - Gendry gets naturalised by royal decree after Arya spills the beans. Lannisters are numerous as well. Well, not on the show as we are shown just the main players, but then again for the show it is not important.

But whoever runs the Kingdoms at the end will doubtlessly go a lot the Stannis way - making new lords and cutting down the big houses.

[TheCasualObserver]

On 8/21/2016 at 10:33 PM, Future Null Infinity said:

IMO, at this stage of the story, I'm fully expecting everyone to go crazy, the tale started with some innocent people, and because they were innocent in the brutal world of GRRM they got killed, beheaded, raped and stabbed so they became darker in order to survive (like Daenerys, Arya and Sansa), I think it's the theme of the story :"Innocence doesn't work in Planetos, innocence doesn't give free pass in the story" (in contrast with LOTR maybe?) and because of her early innocence and brutal story, Sansa was the first character to know the hard  truth so I expect that she will go the LF (I don't think she will betray Jon but she will not stay in WF) and Baelish is the best player in the story and he's alive for a reason and there is a reason why the stories of those two are entangled from the beginning, I even have suspicions that things will not end very well between Jon and Daenerys

Doesn't that seem simplistic though? I don't believe that is an accurate representation of life in the Medieval era.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

It's more likely Sansa marries Robert Arryn and he dies making the Arryn name extinct. Although someone with Arryn blood would simply become heir and start using the Arryn name. Which is exactly what Sansa would do. If she's the ruler of Winterfell any child she has becomes a Stark. Sure her husband would complain but if she's smart shed marry someone a tad beneath her station that she could push around. No way do the Starks disappear. At least not in THIS story.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 22. 8. 2016 at 8:14 AM, TheCasualObserver said:

If the series ends with Jon on the throne then he will have no choice other than to take the Targ name. I think I mentioned upthread that Bael's son isn't exactly a good legal precedent; it happened millennia ago and we have no reason to suspect it's true at all - it was a story Ygritte used to flirt with Jon. The naming conventions of an entire society cannot change on a whim. 

He'll kep Jon because changing would be a bit over the top and silly.. But definitely Targaryen as surname because it simply holds more power in the South and Stark name matters in the North only so that would be necessary.

[lojzelote]

On 20. 8. 2016 at 4:32 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Bran is alive and will supplant Jon, amicably if/when he arrives to take his rightful seat and bears whitness to Jon and the others who Jon really is. I think the show divereted from the Books with Rickon's death and I think the Stark name will more likely endure in the Books as it is uncertain if Bran will be able to sire children. As far as Sansa goes, there have been some spoilers hinted at by Sophie Turner that seemed a giveaway for Season 7.

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When asked what Sansa would do, she said will she team with LF and be a seductress and manipulator or team up with Jon but that Jon never really was a Stark, he was always a Targaryen. It kinda gave a vibe that the "ickiness" of her and Jon "possible uniting" would not be so icky as they are not sibblings or half sibblings afterall. She then said that she better stop so that she does not give anything away as she claimed that she and the other major characters have received Season 7 scripts already.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi5i9SBm9DOAhVDYyYKHQzBDY0QqQIIIjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvariety.com%2F2016%2Ftv%2Fnews%2Fgame-of-thrones-season-7-sophie-turner-sansa-stark-fate-1201839524%2F&usg=AFQjCNEG3zLEuSWrIloFwe9hrC6L4xlzJA

Why should Bran supplant Jon? The northern lords chose Jon Snow over the legitimate and recognized Stark heir, ie Sansa. If anything, it's more likely that Bran will supplant Sansa as the Lord of Winterfell. Though personally I think they will simply ignore the implications of Bran's return.

Jon/Sansa will never happen. It has no basis in the books (no matter what a number of shippers who miss forrest for the trees would claim), and the show is still supposed to follow the books in its major plot points. Besides, Jon/Dany had some heavy anvils forreshadowing at the end of the last season that I would almost believe it's too obvious if this wasn't GoT... these guys possess the subtlety of an elephant! (See all the Olly reaction shots or Cersei burning/blowing up things. Gee, I wonder who is going to stab Jon in the back? Gee, I wonder how will the High Sparrow vs Cersei conflict climax? Gee, I wonder who will Daenerys marry?) And as opposed to Jon/Sansa, the Jon/Dany union has been speculated about since ACoK came outdue to Dany's blue rose vision in House of the Undying. 

As to OP, no. Sansa's or Arya's children would adopt the Stark name. We can see this with Harry Hardyng, for example, who is eager to become the Lord of the Vale and adopt his grandmother's surname. IIRC in the North itself, this option was brought up regarding Beren Tallhart, who would be expected to adopt the Hornwood name to inherit his maternal uncle's lands and titles.

Sometimes you can see this kind of thing happening iRL as well. The Austrian branch of House of Habsburg passed though Empress Maria Theresa despite her being a woman and marrying a non-Habsburg consort. House of Romanoff has been preserved through female line, too. (Emperor Peter III was the son of a Danish duke and Grand Dutchess Anna Petrovna of Russia, a daughter of Peter the Great.) In nobility, Rasputin's killer, Prince Felix Yusupov is a good example of this. His mother, Princess Zinaida Yusupova, was the last of her line, so her sons were allowed to carry on her family name.

[GHOSTSTARK]

On 8/17/2016 at 9:17 PM, Mandzipop said:

I guess if a man were prepared to give up his name for his children and name them Stark instead of his own. To most men this would be a slight. It wouldn't be an issue if the child was a bastard or the child of a bastard.

the Mormont women did that

[Lord_Ravenstone]

On 8/24/2016 at 2:50 AM, TheCasualObserver said:

Doesn't that seem simplistic though? I don't believe that is an accurate representation of life in the Medieval era.

It's not and neither is how bastards are treated in Westeros. Westeros isn't the same as the medieval era. They have magic, dragons, seasons that least for years etc.