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Ned had condemned Theon to failure.


Jon's Queen Consort

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I wrote it in another thread but I thought that it might deserve its own thread.

I believe that even if it was the safe thing to do, Ned by keeping Theon for this long he condemned him to fail as an Iron Born High Lord and eventually his death. Ned maybe had provided him with the average highborn education but Theon was much more than just an average Lord. He was the heir of a High Lord who ruled over a culture known for their brutality and cruelty. Once Theon would had became the Lord he should had been able to lead them and in order for that to happen he would had prove that he was strong enough and not a weak person from the mainland who would had never known what a true Iron Born mean. By keeping them for so long and not allowing him to go home, be around his future Lords, get to know them make friends with them, prove his power to them he made him a outcast who would never been accepted as their true High Lord.

Do you agree or not?

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I agree with you that it would cripple Theon's ability to rule the Iron Born effectively in the future, because of the reasons you've stated.

 

But, it cannot be blamed on Ned. All Ned did was follow his King's decree that he take the Rebel Balon Greyjoy's son as hostage, and keep him as collateral until Robert decided otherwise. The fault lies solely with Robert Baratheon and his extremely neglectful reign as King. It seems like after Balon's attempted rebellion, Robert never thought about them again - there were certainly no attempts to rebuild the fractured relationship between the Crown and the Iron Islands. 

 

IMO Ned went above and beyond what treatment most hostages (highborn, noble or no) can be expected to recieve at their captors hands. Theon was treated as a member of the Stark family, in some ways he was treated better than Jon himself. He had great freedom of movement and agency of his own in Winterfell, and no one is ever seen trying to restrict his movements (ie: he frequents the brothels in Winterstown whenever he chooses). It was never Ned's obligation to make sure that Theon would be a great ruler of the Ironborn, in fact having the next ruler of Pyke have Northern sympathies and sensibilities would probably have been a bonus for both the Crown and North, not to mention the other greenlands that are always being raided.

 

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Not to be condescending, but that is actually what happened when Theon returned to Iron Islands.

When he returns to the Iron Islands, people look at him like he is weird. When he shares Robb's proposal with his father, Balon, and uncle, Aeron, they decline it and insult his mainland and Northern ways. Theon even has to get baptised again because they want proof that he is still Iron Born.

Asha, his older sister, has this conversation with him:

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Ten years a wolf, and you land here and think to prince the islands, but you know nothing and no one, Why should men fight and die for you?

I am their lawful prince.

By the laws of the green land, you might be. But we make our own laws here, or have you forgotten?

 

His family and people's rejection of him because he spent ten years in Winterfell is the reason why he decided to betray the Starks in the first place. To them, he is no longer Iron Born.

Religion and/or morality is a huge reason why a lot of the characters do what they do to begin with, but we have seen in real life, both in the past and today, that people are reluctant to have a leader with a different religion than them.

 

I'm sorry, but looking at how Theon is treated when he returns, and knowing that people are more likely to follow a leader who shares their religion, it's hard to not agree that, yeah, Ned kind of screwed Theon over by raising him exclusively in the North.

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I don't think Ned would ever send back Theon to the islands as long as Balon lived. He was sent as a ward to Winterfell to keep Balon quiet. And I think Balon knew this: Ned or whoever would send back Theon when Balon died, to pose a claim as lord Greyjoy and to -maybe- secure an ally on the Isles. Asha saying 'we make our laws here' sounds to me as an intended bashing on Theon's rightful claim as lord. SHE WAS raised as the unofficial heir, after all. And this mirrors a lot what happened to Rhaenyra Targaryen. Anyways, that's why they treat him like dirt when he lands, both Balon and Asha. The rest of the ironmen seem to have a cautious obedience to him. As to legitimate succesion, Theon was the rightful heir. He sailed with an old and veteran warrior, Dagmer, and brought along other reputed warriors to Winterfell (Black Lorren). Even if he went to the Stony Shore to raid 'fisher villages', he sailed with experienced people who commanded respect.

Balon was in a tight spot if I think of it. If he planned his attacks on the north the minute Robb went south, he needed his fellow ironmen to BELIEVE Asha was a leader to be followed: that's why -again- bashed Theon by sending him to the Stony Shore and Asha down to take a castle. 

As to the initial question, I don't think Theon was denied being lord Greyjoy, in the future, by being a ward in Winterfell. Balon played his cards to cleanly take that away from him. Quellon Greyjoy, Theon's grandfather, was a good leader and he was more akin to these 'greenlands' Balon appears to be hatin' so much out of the blue.

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I think the biggest obstacle was always Balon though. He was the one who was such a radical traditionalist. Had Balon had a heart attack or something, Theon might have had a better chance returning the Iron Islands. Aeron, Victarion and Asha might have supported him, especially if Euron entered the picture.

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37 minutes ago, GallowsKnight said:

I think the biggest obstacle was always Balon though. He was the one who was such a radical traditionalist. Had Balon had a heart attack or something, Theon might have had a better chance returning the Iron Islands. Aeron, Victarion and Asha might have supported him, especially if Euron entered the picture.

Balon wanted Asha to be his heir and was grooming her for years, which goes massively against Ironborn tradition.

Both Aeron and Victarion were strongly against a woman ruling and would have always supported Theon over Asha.

Theon is not stupid, he would have gone through some baptizing rituals and pretended to be a pious follower of the Drowned God to get support of Aeron and the people.

Victarion is a loyal traditionalist without ruling ambition and would back Theon over any pretender, especially Euron and Asha.

 

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22 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

Yea they should of sent him to Tywin, his ideology is more in line with something the IB would respect and he'd of been close to the sea and could actually learn to run a ship and maybe even interact with other IB.

It's quite possible Tywin has the kid placed in an oubliette or something as punishment for burning the Lannister fleet.

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2 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

It's quite possible Tywin has the kid placed in an oubliette or something as punishment for burning the Lannister fleet.

Not likely, he's a valuable pawn that can spread his influence and secure his coast. 

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5 hours ago, fenr1s said:

Balon wanted Asha to be his heir and was grooming her for years, which goes massively against Ironborn tradition.

Both Aeron and Victarion were strongly against a woman ruling and would have always supported Theon over Asha.

Theon is not stupid, he would have gone through some baptizing rituals and pretended to be a pious follower of the Drowned God to get support of Aeron and the people.

Victarion is a loyal traditionalist without ruling ambition and would back Theon over any pretender, especially Euron and Asha.

Yeah fairpoint on the Asha things. It's strange he was progressive on that one point.

I agree Aeron and Victarion would likely back Theon and I think Asha is rational enough to come around to backing Theon, especially as he might be a bit more malleable/progressive than Vic and Aeron.

And ultimately Euron's return would act to unite all 4 I think.

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I agree, pretty much theon had no chance to rule the iron born, even if balon died, aeron would just take the throne by force, and since he was not a northern lord, the best scenario that theon could ever hoped, was robb winning the war, and he getting some land in the westerlands or north, and becoming a minor lord, which is a huge fall from the next in line to rule an entire region(and de facto kingdom) to a minor lord of who knows where and forever be known as the kraken who became a stark lackey

the fault as pointed, lays with robert and balon himself who started the whole damm thing., but yes, theon was pretty much set to fail.

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14 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I wrote it in another thread but I thought that it might deserve its own thread.

I believe that even if it was the safe thing to do, Ned by keeping Theon for this long he condemned him to fail as an Iron Born High Lord and eventually his death. Ned maybe had provided him with the average highborn education but Theon was much more than just an average Lord. He was the heir of a High Lord who ruled over a culture known for their brutality and cruelty. Once Theon would had became the Lord he should had been able to lead them and in order for that to happen he would had prove that he was strong enough and not a weak person from the mainland who would had never known what a true Iron Born mean. By keeping them for so long and not allowing him to go home, be around his future Lords, get to know them make friends with them, prove his power to them he made him a outcast who would never been accepted as their true High Lord.

Do you agree or not?

You seem to have a very strange definition of success and failure. If Theon had been raised to be Balon 2.0, the Ironborn would have loved him, and that would have been an utter failure. Innocents would be raped and murdered, and Ironborn put to the sword once again.

Instead Ned tried to raise Theon to live a better way. Theon was educated, given the friendship of the Heir to Winterfel, and set up to have relatively non-ridiculous beliefs. Many of the Ironborn would have hated him, absolutely, and that's fine. If, at 40 or 50, Ned had to crush another Ironborn rebellion, well, at least this time they kept it to the islands. And Theon wouldn't have no allies, as you claim - I think that, in another context, he could have reached an understanding with Asha and Rodrick the Reader and what Preston Jacobs calls "The Alliance of the Reasonable" In the meantime he could run some iron mines and some fishing fleets, go on diplomatic missions to Winterfel where people like him, and if he had to launch a big raid on foreigners, maybe he could direct it to beyond the wall, where there's no giant fleet and army waiting to retaliate and crush them. Or, in a really optimistic view of things, the Iron Fleet could even be sent out to sail around Westeros and battle pirates in the Narrow sea.  That's what success would have looked like. 

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52 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

 If Theon had been raised to be Balon 2.0

No one said something like that.

52 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Instead Ned tried to raise Theon to live a better way.

True. However what is a good for a mainlander isn't good for the rest.

52 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Many of the Ironborn would have hated him, absolutely, and that's fine.

It's not fine because they would had killed him for being weak.

52 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

what Preston Jacobs calls "The Alliance of the Reasonable"

Is that a joke?

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Well, Ned did not take Theon for Theon's own good, and certainly not with the purpose to raise the ideal IB reaper leader. He took him to secure the safety for all the rest and to, maybe, have one day a lord of the Iron Islands that would be mor in line with the greenlanders' mentality.

Lest we forget, Ned was a medieval lord, not your neighbourhood's social welfare office.

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2 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

He took him to secure the safety for all the rest and to, maybe, have one day a lord of the Iron Islands that would be mor in line with the greenlanders' mentality.

Yet by his actions he wouldn't have him as the High Lord at the end.  The IB would had killed him and they would had a Lord who would remember what they have done to the Iron Isles and he would had attacked them.

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Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Yet by his actions he wouldn't have him as the High Lord at the end.  The IB would had killed him and they would had a Lord who would remember what they have done to the Iron Isles and he would had attacked them.

 

True, perhaps they would, but he had nothing to lose by trying.

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1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Trying would had been to give him the chance to be the best Lord he could be. Ned never gave him that chance. 

Best, again, for whom? If it's the best leader for the traditional IB "business", Ned (and the rest) could do better without. In fact, the potential leadership problem within the IB could be beneficial, for a time.

But thinking about it, it might have been a better idea to take one child of every prominent IB noble family. That way they'd have more leverage, creating an inside opposition to potential Balon's new uprising plans (because not all IB would give up their children for dead like Balon did, that's for sure) and then, they'd have educated and influenced a good part of the IB ruling class' new generation; those children would support Theon in order to support their own position - and again, not all IB families would be willing to undermine their own kin in favour of the "old way" ideal.

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