Ned had condemned Theon to failure.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

22 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

What skills should Ned have taught Theon, than?

What Lords responsibilities are, to take him during councils in order to understand how ruling works. We have a whole chapter (AGOT, Jon VI) about how an heir is trained and when Jon mentions Robb he hadn't mentioned Theon.

[John Doe]

16 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What Lords responsibilities are, to take him during councils in order to understand how ruling works. We have a whole chapter (AGOT, Jon VI) about how a heir is trained and when Jon mentions Robb he hadn't mentioned Theon.

Exactly. Instead he frightens him by making him his sword bearer and has him beaten up for accidents. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, John Doe said:

Exactly. Instead he frightens him by making him his sword bearer and has him beaten up for accidants. 

Also before anyone claims that he did and Jon just doesn't mention it, Jon is jealous of Theon and during that part of GoT is a whiny and entitled brat. There is no way that he wouldn't have mentioned how Ned treated him better than his bastard.

[BricksAndSparrows]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

What Lords responsibilities are, to take him during councils in order to understand how ruling works. We have a whole chapter (AGOT, Jon VI) about how a heir is trained and when Jon mentions Robb he hadn't mentioned Theon.

Well you spoke at length in the other thread about how foolish it would be to empower someone who is likely to betray you...

Theon did not enjoy the full benefit of Ned's tutelage, but he wasn't left to muck the stables either. He was educated in many other ways as well. He carried Ice for Ned and would have had the opportunity to learn much. You forget that Ned Stark himself wasn't raised as the first son of Rickard, yet he grew into a wise and capable lord.

Many people have done great jobs in roles they were not trained for.

When you run a failed rebellion, it does not entitle you to have your heir tutored by the better lords that defeated you.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

15 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Well you spoke at length in the other thread about how foolish it would be to empower someone who is likely to betray you...

There was no reason to kill Theon in order to secure the Realm's peace. On the other hand all that Aegon needed for example was someone ambitious enough like the Tyrells to start a war. Hence he had to die.

15 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

He carried Ice for Ned and would have had the opportunity to learn much.

Much about beheading?

15 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

You forget that Ned Stark himself wasn't raised as the first son of Rickard, yet he grew into a wise and capable lord.

Because he had a good tutor.

15 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

He was educated in many other ways as well.

True learning the past Lords of WF is so useful for the High Lord of the Iron Isles.

15 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Many people have done great jobs in roles they were not trained for.

And yet we are not talking about an average Lord, we are talking about the future High Lord of a culture known for their cruelty. 

15 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

When you run a failed rebellion, it does not entitle you to have your heir tutored by the better lords that defeated you.

True. If it was any other King, Theon along with Asha and the majority of the Iron Borns would had died.So you can say that it was Robert's generosity that caused Balons second rebellion. 

15 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

it does not entitle you to have your heir tutored by the better lords that defeated you.

That is bs. Balon didn't wanted for his son to become a typical Westerosi Lord so by training Theon how to be a Westerosi Lord was the last thing Balon wanted. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

1 minute ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Much about beheading?

He who passes the sentence should swing the sword..
 

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And yet we are not talking about an average Lord, we are talking about the future High Lord of a culture known for their cruelty. 

True learning the past Lords of WF is so useful for the High Lord of the Iron Isles.

 

What King taught Aegon the conqueror how to rule the reach, westerlands, stormlands, etc?

 

The principles of leadership are universal.

Quote

That is bs. Balon didn't wanted for his son to become a typical Westerosi Lord so by training Theon how to be a Westerosi Lord was the last thing Balon wanted. 

And according to you, his wish was granted.

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

He who passes the sentence should swing the sword..

Very important lesson. It is way more important for a lord to learn how to cut someone's head than to teach him how to rule.

16 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

What King taught Aegon the conqueror how to rule the reach, westerlands, stormlands, etc?

That doesn't make sense. He didn't ruled those regions according to their rules. He was a tyrant.

16 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

The principles of leadership are universal.

How the eff is family history a "principle of leadership" and important for a Lord from a completely different area? It's not like Theon was a Stark or a lord from the North, he was a foreigner. The names of formel Lords was useless to him. To quote myself

Quote

 

According to Plato the ideal leader should rule with some leadership principles:

Moderation
Unity
Reforming
Judgment
Dialectic
The virtues that a leader must have:

Wisdom-discipline to his instincts
Prudence-Moderation is the best
Bravery
Justice

 

Point me where family history of a foreigner is one of the principles.

16 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

And according to you, his wish was granted.

Whose wish? Balon's? His wish was for his son to be an Iron Born which he wasn't.

[BricksAndSparrows]

3 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Very important lesson. It is way more important for a lord to learn how to cut someone's head than to teach him how to rule.

 

That doesn't make sense. He didn't ruled those regions according to their rules. He was a tyrant.

How the eff is family history a "principle of leadership" and important for a Lord from a completely different area? It's not like Theon was a Stark or a lord from the North, he was a foreigner. The names of formel Lords was useless to him.

Whose wish? Balon's? His wish was for his son to be a true Iron Born which he wasn't.

Your whole argument is based on a narrow-minded false pretense. That you cant lead the iron born unless you are trained to lead the iron born. This is false. 

Your whole argument is built upon this rickety, narrow-minded concept. It is false.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

9 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Your whole argument is based on a narrow-minded false pretense. That you cant lead the iron born unless you are trained to lead the iron born. This is false. 

He wasn't trained to rule at all, especially with a culture like the Iron Borns. If you cannot see how the fact that someone hasn't trained to rule is a destined to fail at ruling then good for you. For me that is utter  and completely ridiculous. If you are right why Ned had taken Robb with him in order to meet his bannermen and his bannermen to be familiar with Robb?

9 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Your whole argument is built upon this rickety, narrow-minded concept. It is false.

Sure if you say so.

[BricksAndSparrows]

19 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He wasn't trained to rule at all, especially with a culture like the Iron Borns. If you cannot see how the fact that someone hasn't trained to rule is a destined to fail at ruling then good for you. For me that is utter  and completely ridiculous. If you are right why Ned had taken Robb with him in order to meet his bannermen and his bannermen to be familiar with Robb?

Sure if you say so.

Do you really think Theon's failures all stem from a lack of ability to rule?

If Theon was inclined to learn about leadership and learn about being a Lord he could have. If you can't see that, I'm sorry for you. 

[Jon Fossoway]

When the saga starts Ned gets almost inmediatly requested at King's Landing, so there isn't actually any proof of him teaching Theon. But save for the 'the man who pass the yadda yadda', we get no insight of Ned teaching anything to anyone, lest of all, rule the north, which he was doing for some quite time now. Theon do get along well with Robb, the heir to Winterfell and that may mean something. But having a guy who is the heir of the overlord of another region as a ward was an excellent asset for Ned, so I think it's same to assume he treated him well. He was a potential ally when Balon was gone.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

When the saga starts Ned gets almost inmediatly requested at King's Landing, so there isn't actually any proof of him teaching Theon. But save for the 'the man who pass the yadda yadda', we get no insight of Ned teaching anything to anyone, lest of all, rule the north, which he was doing for some quite time now. 

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

 We have a whole chapter (AGOT, Jon VI) about how an heir is trained and when Jon mentions Robb he hadn't mentioned Theon.

Before anyone claims that he did and Jon just doesn't mention it, Jon was jealous of Theon and during that part of GoT is a whiny and entitled brat. There is no way that he wouldn't have mentioned how Ned treated him better than his bastard.

so I think it's same to assume he treated him well.

He did treated him well but cold. But we are talking about the training to be the Lond not how he treated him.

[MinotaurWarrior]

3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I didn't meant in universe. I meant during the discussion here.

Oh, ok.

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Sure it would be better for them but do you think that in so many centuries someone hadn't already tried to do it?

No, not really, not the way Theon / Ned / Robb would have. Prior to 1AC the Ironborn had absolutely no interest in adopting a lifestyle of peaceful cohabitation, because war and conquest and raping and pillaging was going really well. Then Vickon gets the isles, and Greyjoy, the third-kingliest house, appears to concern itself with consolidating power at home. Around the turns of the first and second centuries AC, we hear of returns to raiding in the midsts of larger Westerosi civil wars. Presumably, after each of these revolts, the Ironborn were put down by the other high lords had more pressing matters to attend to in the recovery, rather than attempting to permanently pacify the ironborn. Quellon was something of a reformer, but not as much as Ned / Theon / Robb would have been - Quellon brought maesters to the Isles, but he also sacked faircastle.

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That would made them to hate him even more than before. 

So be it. Let their hate blind them. If he has to decorate the steps to the Seastone chair with the heads of his enemies, that only frees up more seats to grant to his allies, and perhaps even spares more innocents of the crimes men like Victarion Wife-Killer and his cronies Ralf and Nute would have otherwise committed. 

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Ned hadn't taught him how to be a ruler the fact that he knew how to read, to write and the sigils doesn't mean that he was trained to become a ruler. From what I recall he hadn't took him during councils and stuff like that.

He was seated at the high table where Ned met with his men, invited to participate in justice (he, not Robb, is given the honor of handling Ice), invited to hunt with the king, train with the crown prince, et cetera. There are no scenes of him sitting with Ned at council, but Cat confides with him after the 2nd Bran assassination attempt.

The most important things here are that he was shown the way Ned treated smallfolk with dignity (in contrast to, y'know, having thralls) and participating in beheadings. Those are the two greatest gifts he could have given to Lord Reaver Theon. Give the thralls and smallfolk a taste of respect, and they'll love you. Give the Lords of the Iron Isles their father's heads, and they'll either make peace or die out.  

[Arya_Stupid!]

10 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Trying would had been to give him the chance to be the best Lord he could be. Ned never gave him that chance. 

You keep blaming Ned for this situation. Not one part of any of it is remotely Ned's fault. Balon Greyjoy rebelled against, and was punished by, Robert Baratheon. The King. 

It was the King's reponsibility to get his kingdom in order and keep it that way. He was neglectful. I has been something like 10 years since Balon rebelled, and no plans were laid out to foster better relations between the Crown and Pyke. No plans were stated of when Theon would be returned or if he ever would be at all. 

None of these decisions were Ned's to make - they were Robert's, and he couldn't be arsed. Ned was a glorified babysitter to Theon, and he raised him to be a part of his own family. It was never in his job desciption to make sure Theon would be the best Kraken there ever was.

He was meant to keep the King's Hostage safe, alive and out of his father's reach. I'd say he succeeded.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

8 hours ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

snip

That is utter nonsense! Theon was Ned's ward, it was his obligation to train him just like what it happens to wards. You cannot blame Robert for Ned's actions.

9 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

So be it. Let their hate blind them. If he has to decorate the steps to the Seastone chair with the heads of his enemies, that only frees up more seats to grant to his allies, and perhaps even spares more innocents of the crimes men like Victarion Wife-Killer and his cronies Ralf and Nute would have otherwise committed. 

Ned's men and Theon would had died the moment they had put at the shore and then they would had continued to plunder Westeros. Even if this didn't happened immediately it would happened in a year or so. Also by sent swords at the Iron Isles instead of training a good Lord, Ned would had been a tyrant and the hate between the Iron Isles and Westeros would had been much *bigger*

9 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

No, not really, not the way Theon / Ned / Robb would have. 

 

Ned killed a person which is what executioners are for.True and that is why I say that Ned should had trained Theon to rule. Ned needed a good neighbor who could at least try to change the Iron Born society. If he wanted a good neighbor since Theon was his ward he needed to train him to be a wise and strong leader.

9 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

He was seated at the high table where Ned met with his men,

I don't recall that and Jon never mention it.

 

9 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

invited to participate in justice (he, not Robb, is given the honor of handling Ice),

Ned killed a person which is what executioners are for. 

9 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

invited to hunt with the king, train with the crown prince, et ceter

How those are important about learning how to rule the Iron Borns?

9 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Give the thralls and smallfolk a taste of respect, and they'll love you.

That would mean that he would had the power to do it. If the was considered weak he would had been dead and he wouldn't had been able to do anything.

9 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Give the Lords of the Iron Isles their father's heads, and they'll either make peace or die out.  

If you were right the Iron Borns should had died centuries ago and yet they were not.

[Ser Knute]

On 8/18/2016 at 4:37 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I wrote it in another thread but I thought that it might deserve its own thread.

I believe that even if it was the safe thing to do, Ned by keeping Theon for this long he condemned him to fail as an Iron Born High Lord and eventually his death. Ned maybe had provided him with the average highborn education but Theon was much more than just an average Lord. He was the heir of a High Lord who ruled over a culture known for their brutality and cruelty. Once Theon would had became the Lord he should had been able to lead them and in order for that to happen he would had prove that he was strong enough and not a weak person from the mainland who would had never known what a true Iron Born mean. By keeping them for so long and not allowing him to go home, be around his future Lords, get to know them make friends with them, prove his power to them he made him a outcast who would never been accepted as their true High Lord.

Do you agree or not?

No, I don't agree.  You seem to look at this as if Theon was wronged by Ned and that's the premise you begin from, when in actuality Theon was wronged by his own father.  Ned didn't make Balon rebel, Ned didn't shape the Iron Born as raiders and pirates stealing and pillaging from other kingdoms within the Crown's domains... Balon fostered that tradition and chose to take his shot and failed, thus dooming his own son's future.  The blame lies with him.  Are we to presume Balon was unaware of what happens when you lose a rebellion?  Is he oblivious to the notion that hostages will be taken as a means to prevent future acts against the crown?  I don't believe for one minute Balon wasn't aware, he just didn't give a damn.  He didn't think of the consequences or think on them enough to stay his hand for his children's sake.  No he had glory in mind... glory for himself first, then maybe some for 'his people'.

Theon was treated fairly by Ned and it could even be said better than what could be expected.  He was a hostage, beyond being given the basics Theon was owed nothing by Ned and in fact was owed a lot by Balon for putting him in that position.  Does Balon lament his part in Theon's upbringing as a ward at Winterfell?  Not once to my recollection.  Instead he laments that Theon shows some Northern traits, which he despises.  Let's flip the equation and ask, would Balon have treated any other mainlander highborn hostage similarly to how Theon was treated?  I don't believe that for a minute either.

Balon knew the potential risks or should have and he chose as he did anyway.  He risked the future's of his children and his people.  Robert could have had them all executed and it would've been no big deal.  Instead he only took one hostage, the one that would most likely be the next possible Balon in the future in Theon.  Lest we forget too that when Theon does go back to the II's, he immediately tries to gain acceptance by parroting the Ironborn way of life, even though he realizes deep down that it's dishonorable.  Now I don't necessarily blame Theon, he wanted to relate to his kin, especially so considering his being a hostage wasn't of his own making or doing.  However, he too had the same notions as Balon, glory.  He doesn't think, what's going to be best for the future generations of IB, he thinks of and for himself first.

I'd also posit that Balon naming Asha as his heir was not because he was progressive but quite simply because it was his only way of continuity of Greyjoy rule, his way.  He most likely hated Euron and since he was MIA, he's out... Victarion seems able enough so what's the difference between him and Asha?  She's his offspring and not his brother.  Balon was a selfish ass who led his people into poverty instead of using what they had to strengthen their position within the Kingdom.  

So no... Ned isn't to blame for Theon, that rests on Balon's shoulders and maybe the practice of taking hostages, whomever started that 'tradition'.  Could've been a lot worse, Theon could've lost his head for his father's actions, instead he was just taken as hostage and treated as one if the family... yet when he returns to the II's his father rebuffs him as if it was his fault for being a hostage or that he should've stayed a true-blue Iron Islander like his father... and just look at what that got Balon?  Talk about visions if granduer...

[Jon's Queen Consort]

12 minutes ago, Ser Knute said:

snip

That isn't what I meant. Ned's ward and hostage Theon was the heir of the Iron isles. When someone is a heir like Theon he has to be trained to become the Lord and this is the guardian's obligation to train him for the future. That is what happens. Ned hadn't trained him as an heir who will become the next Lord hence he condemned to fail as the next Lord.

On 19/8/2016 at 1:53 AM, GallowsKnight said:

I think the biggest obstacle was always Balon though. He was the one who was such a radical traditionalist. Had Balon had a heart attack or something, Theon might have had a better chance returning the Iron Islands. Aeron, Victarion and Asha might have supported him, especially if Euron entered the picture.

True but I am talking about Theon's education to be the next High Lord. He lacked the education to be a useful Lord and without the training he would had been consindered as weak. 

[MinotaurWarrior]

3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Ned's men and Theon would had died the moment they had put at the shore and then they would had continued to plunder Westeros. Even if this didn't happened immediately it would happened in a year or so.

What leads you to believe this?

Ned and company easily crushed Balon's first revolt. Pyke is nearly unassailable by ironborn techniques. The only entrances to the Great Keep are easily defensible narrow bridges. Robert and Ned brought siege engines, but as far as we've seen, the Ironborn don't have them. If Theon invested Pyke with soldiers loyal to him, I believe (and I suspect Eddard believed) he could hold out against any rebels for long enough to be rescued by his allies.

I base my belief on history (the ironborn consistently lose) and physical practicalities. What do you base your belief upon?

 

Quote

Also by sent swords at the Iron Isles instead of training a good Lord, Ned would had been a tyrant and the hate between the Iron Isles and Westeros would had been much *bigger*

I agree that the hatred between the Greenlands and the die-hard pirates, raiders, and rapists would grow. Could you explain why you believe that is a bad thing?

But most of the people living on the iron islands aren't like that. There are those, like Rodrick the Reader, who are noble born and smart enough to realize the Old Way is doomed; the Farwynds, who are crazy in an entirely different way from the rest of the ironborn; and, there are the thralls, salt wives, and smallfolk - aka the actual people of the iron isles. 

Quote

Ned killed a person which is what executioners are for.

Not true either in the North or the Iron Islands. Theon's men specifically demand that he be the one to personally drown their captives. Theon personally shoots Todric to enforce his rule against drunkenness, and then immediately thinks, "now they know they mean what I say." And Victarion seems to be under the consistent belief that crimes against your personal honor need to be avenged with your own hands, though Victarion is so thoroughly insane I really can't be sure how generalizable that is.

Quote

True and that is why I say that Ned should had trained Theon to rule. Ned needed a good neighbor who could at least try to change the Iron Born society. If he wanted a good neighbor since Theon was his ward he needed to train him to be a wise and strong leader.

I think he did.

Quote

I don't recall that and Jon never mention it.

AGoT Jon I
 

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The last of the high lords to enter were his uncle, Benjen Stark of the Night's Watch, and his father's ward, young Theon Greyjoy. Benjen gave Jon a warm smile as he went by. Theon ignored him utterly, but there was nothing new in that. After all had been seated, toasts were made, thanks were given and returned, and then the feasting began.

Theon sat at the big table with all the other guests of honor.

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How those are important about learning how to rule the Iron Borns?

 

Because it provided him the opportunity to develop relationships with other powerful rulers. If, twenty years down the line, Theon needed help putting down a revolt, he'd be better off sending ravens to people who know him and maybe like him, rather than total strangers. It's also generally a huge part of medieval rulership. Face time with the king and future king is huge. 

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That would mean that he would had the power to do it. If the was considered weak he would had been dead and he wouldn't had been able to do anything.

After a short while, I don't think Theon would be considered weak. Or, at very least, Ned didn't raise him to be weak. He trained him in arms, fostered a strong diplomatic friendship between him and Robb, educated him to be a somewhat absurdly good commander (the taking of Winterfell), and was trying to develop his moral compass and headsman's solemnity. Theon does a pretty good job of killing off all sorts of threats to his reign in the midst of the unpredictable chaos that is the way the plot of the books turned out. I think Ned set him up to have a chance at proving his strength in the iron islands.

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If you were right the Iron Borns should had died centuries ago and yet they were not.

Again, where do you see that in the history? We have no records of a case where something like this was attempted. If you're talking about centuries ago, we actually have a pretty good idea of what the first ~40 of the 1st Century AC looked like for the ironborn, and it was a period of Crown-sanctioned regression and internal consolidation of power as the Targaryens primarily concerned themselves with solidifying their own power. If you only meant "a long time ago" I can point to the fact that none of our ironborn characters, not even Rodrick the Reader, ever draws a parallel between Theon and a similar case of an Ironborn crown Prince being raised from a young age among the greenlanders by a High Lord who's incredibly devoted to the prevention of rape and is BFFs with the current king. Ned had a unique opportunity. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Theon sat at the big table with all the other guests of honor.

That is a dinner not a council meeting. For a dinner Theon was the heir of the Iron Isles, of course he would had been seated there. 

3 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

What leads you to believe this?

That they would had killed Theon and the guards?

13 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

If Theon invested Pyke with soldiers loyal to him, I believe (and I suspect Eddard believed) he could hold out against any rebels for long enough to be rescued by his allies.

I disagree. All Theon's enemy needed was to attack them during the night and kill them when they sleep or poison them.

14 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Could you explain why you believe that is a bad thing?

Why hatred and war is better than peace?

16 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

What do you base your belief upon?

Which belief?

16 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

There are those, like Rodrick the Reader,

He belongs to the  minority of the Iron Borns.

17 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Not true either in the North or the Iron Islands. Theon's men specifically demand that he be the one to personally drown their captives. Theon personally shoots Todric to enforce his rule against drunkenness, and then immediately thinks, "now they know they mean what I say." And Victarion seems to be under the consistent belief that crimes against your personal honor need to be avenged with your own hands, though Victarion is so thoroughly insane I really can't be sure how generalizable that is.

Still that isn't a lesson of how someone must rule.

18 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Because it provided him the opportunity to develop relationships with other powerful rulers. If, twenty years down the line, Theon needed help putting down a revolt, he'd be better off sending ravens to people who know him and maybe like him, rather than total strangers. It's also generally a huge part of medieval rulership. Face time with the king and future king is huge. 

So you think that the best thing that should happen is to install tyrany?

19 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

After a short while, I don't think Theon would be considered weak.

It wouldn't take a long. Heck we already have seen what the Iron Borns think of Theon. That he is a weak person and not an Iron Born.

20 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

He trained him in arms, fostered a strong diplomatic friendship between him and Robb, educated him to be a somewhat absurdly good commander (the taking of Winterfell), and was trying to develop his moral compass and headsman's solemnity.

The fact that they were friends wouldn't save Theon when he would had failed to rule Iron Isles. Ned had failed to teach an heir about how a Lord rules. It's that simple.

21 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Again, where do you see that in the history? We have no records of a case where something like this was attempted. If you're talking about centuries ago, we actually have a pretty good idea of what the first ~40 of the 1st Century AC looked like for the ironborn, and it was a period of Crown-sanctioned regression and internal consolidation of power as the Targaryens primarily concerned themselves with solidifying their own power. If you only meant "a long time ago" I can point to the fact that none of our ironborn characters, not even Rodrick the Reader, ever draws a parallel between Theon and a similar case of an Ironborn crown Prince being raised from a young age among the greenlanders by a High Lord who's incredibly devoted to the prevention of rape and is BFFs with the current king. Ned had a unique opportunity. 

So you believe that no one had made the Iron Borns change their ways?

[MinotaurWarrior]

57 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

That is a dinner not a council meeting. For a dinner Theon was the heir of the Iron Isles, of course he would had been seated there. 

OK.

Ned never actually holds a "council meeting" in Winterfell on-page, so I don't know if Theon was included or excluded from those. But Ned's children identify his rotating meals with different members of his staff as being a big part of how he ruled, it clearly was part of how he maintained bonds with the smallfolk, and it's something Theon was included in.

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That they would had killed Theon and the guards?

 

That the traditionalist ironborn would have been capable of mounting a successful revolt.

 

Quote

 

I disagree. All Theon's enemy needed was to attack them during the night and kill them when they sleep

 

Theon, as "Prince of Winterfell" is shown to be a light sleeper (he's awoken by the absence of a noise), who is very mindful of the guard (he can recite their locations immediately after rising) and specifically cautious about nighttime assassination attempts. With fewer than thirty men total, he has a guard at his door and a loyal man at the foot of his bed. He was not raised to neglect defense against nighttime raids or assassination attempts.

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or poison them.

The ironborn hate poison. They frequently show this attitude when talking about the crannogmen, and are never shown to use it. Further, Theon would be under no obligation to eat food from his enemies, and he would likely have the service of the best and most loyal maesters of the Iron Islands (remember that there's a great deal of enmity between traditionalists and maesters.)
 

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Why hatred and war is better than peace?

Why it would be bad for the pirates, raiders, and rapists to hate their Lord.

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Which belief?

The way you keep cutting my quotes consistently makes it much harder for me to have a reasoned discussion with you, but in this case I literally cannot tell what you're asking about because you quoted a single clause that I repeated multiple times in different contexts.

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He belongs to the  minority of the Iron Borns.

 

Yes, Lord Harlaw is not, on his own, the majority of Ironborn. He is only the Lord of the Isle of Harlaw, one of the seven great islands. You cut off the rest of the list of types of people who would be unlikely to rebell against Theon.

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Still that isn't a lesson of how someone must rule.

 

Yes it is. The threat of execution and other forms of punishment is a critical part of medieval rulership. As I've said before, Theon himself provides two great examples of this, when his men implore him to kill the captives, saying "you command here, the offering should come from you," tying leadership among the ironborn to holding people's heads beneath the water, and when he shoots a drunkard to enforce his rule. 

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So you think that the best thing that should happen is to install tyrany?

 

Tyranny is a very subjective label. If you think ending the state sanction of rape, murder, piracy, raiding, and thralldom, and enforcing those basic laws with the assistance of one's friends, allies, and legal overlords is tyranny, then yes, I think that's the best thing.

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It wouldn't take a long. Heck we already have seen what the Iron Borns think of Theon. That he is a weak person and not an Iron Born.

I think you confused the meaning of my tenses when I said:

1 hour ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

After a short while, I don't think Theon would be considered weak.

my apologies for being unclear.

I agree with you that Ned set up Theon to draw initial suspicion of weakness. After Balon died and Theon took the isles, you're right that many ironborn would immediately have decided Theon was weak and foreign. I think that, in short order, Theon would have been able to change their minds on the topic of weakness.

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The fact that they were friends wouldn't save Theon when he would had failed to rule Iron Isles. Ned had failed to teach an heir about how a Lord rules. It's that simple.

 

Yes it would. I mean, I disagree with the premise that Theon wasn't taught to be a lord, but say that he was and he somehow lost control completely. Ned / Robert / Robb could have literally saved him. Like with a giant fleet and rescue parties and such. They had a proven track record of defeating ironborn rebels and walking away with Theon unharmed. 

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So you believe that no one had made the Iron Borns change their ways?

No. For instance, Quellon ushered in the return of maesters to the Iron Isles, as I've mentioned before. But there has been no effort comparable to what Ned was trying with Theon.