Ned had condemned Theon to failure.

[Duranaparthur]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

This and since he hadn't been trained how to rule he would had failed. That is my point.

I'm sorry if it seems I keep harping on this, but how much education do you think Ned would have been required to give Theon to make him a high lord? Because it seems to me that the direct mentoring he would have given Robb would have likely involved hands on advice on how to deal with the North specifically, the kind of instruction that will in fact be useless to Theon except in cases of diplomacy with the North. The biggest example we have of fostering education working out excellently would be Ned and Bobby B.'s time under Jon Arryn, and Ned would have likely recieved similar education to Theon (provided, of course, that Ned didn't act coldly with a hostage child, which he seems too merciful to have done), and Ned was an excellent lord.

Again, I'm using "likely" here because we simply don't know enough about what training a High Lord entails to judge Theon's knowledge base. For all I know, it could effectively a PH.D. in comparison to the training Luwin and Ned would give the other boys, or it could be as simple as taking Robb into some sensitive meetings or diplomatic events to help introduce banner men to their future lord, in such a manner that a mature man could succeed without that direct tutoring.

But since this feudal setting tended to favor redundancy thanks to high mortality rates and Ned experienced three versions of unexpected stewardship of  Winterfell in another Stark's hands himself (assuming it himself upon his father's death, leaving Brendan in charge during the Rebellion, leaving Rob in charge when he becomes Hand), it seems likely that you give everyone an education in how to operate a castle with the apparatus of its Maester, skilled laborers, and garrison, with further instruction in how to parley that into compelling obedience of vassal lords.

Theon's greatest weakness in returning to the Iron Islands (again, in the originally envisioned scenario where the true Baratheons sit the Iron Throne with stark support) would be that he would be an outsider to their political apparatus and local bureaucracy, but not that he would be untrained with how to use it. He's a good Maester and some smart political choices away from being grafted onto the exact same spot he would have been removed from, and we can see there's enough conservative political forces in the Islands that he can probably operate with at least a soft mandate thanks to  present force of the North only a few miles away.

[BricksAndSparrows]

This thread presupposes that the only USEFUL training Ned could have offered Theon, was the type he gave to Rob and that anything less "condemns" Theon to failure.

The OP dismisses the value of the education provided and (rather disingenuously, IMO) reduces it to "listing Stark kings." 

@Jon's Queen Consort You do realize that these history lessons were being given by one of Ned's most constant advisor's in Winter fell, right?

I would argue that someone incapable of gleaning valuable lessons on leadership and lordship from Theon's circumstances, was fucked to begin with. That person was simply lacking the ingredients. Some people just don't have it in them.

[Darksnider05]

Wouldn't a successful Ironborn Theon be even more of a scum bag slaver rape pirate?  Why would Eddard want him to be good at any of that.  Ignoring that Eddard had no control of when Theon could go home.  Robert could of sent a random letter saying kill Theon.

[BricksAndSparrows]

Sorry to go off topic, but is there any example of a hostage actually BEING executed? The only one can think of is when Catelyn kills Lord Frey's kid.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Quote

The realm," Maester Luwin said, "and Winterfell. Theon, once I taught you sums and letters, history and warcraft. And might have taught you more, had you wished to learn. I will not claim to bear you any great love, no, but I cannot hate you either. Even if I did, so long as you hold Winterfell I am bound by oath to give you counsel. So now I counsel you to yield."

- Theon VI, ACOK

Make of this quote what you will, but IMO I don't see a reason to suppose that Theon was specially taught only about Northern kings; to me it implies he received the same general history lessons the rest of the kids might have got.

Quote

The Dothraki believe the stars are spirits of the valiant dead," Theon said. Maester Luwin had told him that, a long time ago.

So if Maester Luwin was telling them about the Dothraki, we know he wasn't exclusively sticking to teaching them only about the North.

[Flavia Gemina]

I doubt Ned nor Maester Luwin understood all the finer details of Iron Born culture. Theron's natural temperament may have never gained him the Iron Born's respect.

If Theon had been sent home, Balon would have sent him on yet another failed rebellion and gotten him killed like his brothers. 

Whatever shortcomings the education at Winterfell provided, at least he was alive.

 

[Jon Fossoway]

On 23/8/2016 at 0:05 AM, BricksAndSparrows said:

Sorry to go off topic, but is there any example of a hostage actually BEING executed? The only one can think of is when Catelyn kills Lord Frey's kid.

You mean Aegon Frey? He wasn't a hostage, since he lived in the Twins all along.

In the worldbook, there was a Hoare king that executed two sons of Benarr Justman, which provoked a war that ended with the Justmans defeated. Other than that, can't recall.

[BricksAndSparrows]

41 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

You mean Aegon Frey? He wasn't a hostage, since he lived in the Twins all along.

In the worldbook, there was a Hoare king that executed two sons of Benarr Justman, which provoked a war that ended with the Justmans defeated. Other than that, can't recall.

I forgot his name. The one Cat kills right before they cut her throat. I don't have the books with me and forgot his name. I was kinda joking when I mentioned him. Not a traditional hostage, but... "Rebel against the King and your hostage dies..."

It seems like, in Westeros, you're more likely to come across a White Walker, Dragon, or Resurrected fire zombie, than an executed hostage.

[Runaway Penguin]

Re. education, looking at Earth history, Theon got at least as good an education as most Medieval rulers. Probably far better in the history department. Yes, book learning is scoffed by many (including Theon).

 

As to "teaching to being a lord", Ned is not doing bad job. You can basically only teach it properly by example and by ingraining some basic underlying principles - and rule "do not ask of others what you do not want to do yourself", for example, is pretty solid. There is a reason being attached as aide-de-camp was always viewed as great honor - and as a sign of a. nepotism or b. ability  

Being a sword bearer for an important lord (basically 3rd after King in the hierarchy of 7k) is very similar to what Jon did as Mormont's steward. Yes, it means schlepping the huge ceremonial family sword around - but that also means being present at a large amount of important meetings (swords had great symbolism. Why was it important that Robb greeted Tyrion with naked sword in his lap?). Sword is not just a weapon, it is a symbol of position and when this position is being used, the symbol has to be there. As shown, Catelyn did not hesitate to give out secrets in front of Theon, so him being present at councils is implied. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

20 minutes ago, Runaway Penguin said:

being present at a large amount of important meetings

There is no proof that this ever happened, when Jon who has said that Robb was with Ned during important meetings never mentioned Theon. Also for Theon is always a reminder what he would happen if his father broke the truce.

@Jon's Queen Consort You do realize that these history lessons were being given by one of Ned's most constant advisor's in Winter fell, right?

Really? That change everything! Not really. Of course history is important but the history of Stark family has absolutely no importance about the future High Lord of  the Iron Isles.

[BricksAndSparrows]

13 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Really? That change everything! Not really. Of course history is important but the history of Stark family has absolutely no importance about the future High Lord of  the Iron Isles.

You have no been given evidence confirming that Luwin taught Theon, much more than the history of Stark house:

Quote

The realm," Maester Luwin said, "and Winterfell. Theon, once I taught you sums and letters, history and warcraft. And might have taught you more, had you wished to learn. I will not claim to bear you any great love, no, but I cannot hate you either. Even if I did, so long as you hold Winterfell I am bound by oath to give you counsel. So now I counsel you to yield."

Quote

"The Dothraki believe the stars are spirits of the valiant dead," Theon said. Maester Luwin had told him that, a long time ago."

The fact that you ignore this information, makes it really hard to take your argument seriously, or even talk to you for that matter. You don't need to respond to opinion, conjecture, or "likelihood, but you do need to yield to facts. If you won't do that, than you are really just playing make believe.

[Protagoras]

There is absolutely no way that Theon would have been able to rule the Iron Islands as long as people saw him as a soft greenlander following orders from the mainland. That doesn´t mean you can´t push changes, but you need to do them slow and one at a time or they will never stick.

The traditional aristocracy on the islands want a leader who at least in some instances act the same way culturally and Theon does not. Granted, he can learn but he will come to the islands with no allies, people who want to use him and no real idea how strong each house is or how to appease them. In addition, he might even show up with a soft greenlander wife with no connection at all. Sooner or later, there will be a rebellion and considering the lack of fleet, The North won´t be able to back him up. The Ironborn only have to wait until the rest of Westereos is at war.

Like Asha (if she would rule), Theon needs to compensate for his greenlanderness (being a woman in Ashas case) by holding conservative ironborn positions in most things. If he goes anti-raiding, anti-rape/saltwife, anti-thrall, anti-drowned one etc he will never get the confidence enough to be able to change anything. Maybe a religious fanatic will show up to officially protest against him like last time. But if he pick one of those - say thralls and say something like "I think thralls should have more right and lose their thralldom after 5 years. However, I am still very pro-raiding and pro-saltwifing and of course the drowned one is the only god that should be here" then it could work. Then another leader in 50 years can work with one of the other reformpoints.

Theon also need some local support. I suggest a marriage to one of the greater families - Goodbrother might be the best candidate.

But most importantly - Theon can´t act as The Norths lapdog. He needs to clearly put ironborn interests first, drive hard bargains and say no to suggestions from Ned or Robb which isn´t in their interest (like Robbs deal). No one wants a leader who want to be part of two cultures at the same time (Aquaman is a hilarious example of this - I can´t see US vote forward a president who say "I am proud to be both american and iranian in order to unite our two cultures" yet no one seems to see the problem in that case).

[Little Scribe of Naath]

6 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

[snip]

There is more evidence..

Quote

Theon had to bite his tongue. Deepwood Motte was the stronghold of the Glovers. With both Robett and Galbart warring in the south, it would be lightly held, and once the castle fell the ironmen would have a secure base in the heart of the north. I should be the one sent to take Deepwood. He knew Deepwood Motte, he had visited the Glovers several times with Eddard Stark.

If Theon has been to Deepwood Motte several times, then it could only have been on official meetings with Ned and Robb, there's no other reason for him to go there.

Same for this:

Quote

Perhaps it's a kindness, Theon told himself as he stalked off in the other direction. Stygg was hardly the most expert of headsmen, and Benfred had a neck thick as a boar's, heavy with muscle and fat. I used to mock him for it, just to see how angry I could make him, he remembered. past?That had been, what, three years? When Ned Stark had ridden to Torrhen's Square to see Ser Helman, Theon had accompanied him and spent a fortnight in Benfred's company.

Plus, I don't see where he's really lacking in education of the Iron Islands:

He knows the lords of the Iron Islands well enough, and their sigils:

Quote

The long smoky hall was crowded with his father's lords and captains when Theon entered, near four hundred of them. Dagmer Cleftjaw had not yet returned from Old Wyk with the Stonehouses and Drumms, but all the rest were there—Harlaws from Harlaw, Blacktydes from Blacktyde, Sparrs, Merlyns, and Goodbrothers from Great Wyk, Saltcliffes and Sunderlies from Saltcliffe, and Botleys and Wynches from the other side of Pyke. The thralls were pouring ale, and there was music, fiddles and skins and drums. 

Quote

Theon was more interested in ships than gods. Among the masts of countless fishing boats, he spied a Tyroshi trading galley off-loading beside a lumbering Ibbenese cog with her black-tarred hull. A great number of longships, fifty or sixty at the least, stood out to sea or lay beached on the pebbled shore to the north. Some of the sails bore devices from the other islands; the blood moon of Wynch, Lord Goodbrother's banded black warhorn, Harlaw's silver scythe. Theon searched for his uncle Euron's Silence. Of that lean and terrible red ship he saw no sign, but his father's Great Kraken was there, her bow ornamented with a grey iron ram in the shape of its namesake

He knows the history:

Quote

The islands were too small for awe, and a longship smaller still. If every captain was a king aboard his own ship, as was often said, it was small wonder they named the islands the land of ten thousand kings. And when you have seen your kings shit over the rail and turn green in a storm, it was hard to bend the knee and pretend they were gods. "The Drowned God makes men," old King Urron Redhand had once said, thousands of years ago, "but it's men who make crowns."

Quote

When we still kept the Old Way, lived by the axe instead of the pick, taking what we would, be it wealth, women, or glory. In those days, the ironborn did not work mines; that was labor for the captives brought back from the hostings, and so too the sorry business of farming and tending goats and sheep. War was an ironman's proper trade. The Drowned God had made them to reave and rape, to carve out kingdoms and write their names in fire and blood and song.

Aegon the Dragon had destroyed the Old Way when he burned Black Harren, gave Harren's kingdom back to the weakling rivermen, and reduced the Iron Islands to an insignificant backwater of a much greater realm. Yet the old red tales were still told around driftwood fires and smoky hearths all across the islands, even behind the high stone halls of Pyke. Theon's father numbered among his titles the style of Lord Reaper, and the Greyjoy words boasted that We Do Not Sow.

Quote

Theon was given a suite of chilly rooms with ceilings so high that they were lost in gloom. He might have been more impressed if he had not known that these were the very chambers that had given the Bloody Keep its name. A thousand years before, the sons of the River King had been slaughtered here, hacked to bits in their beds so that pieces of their bodies might be sent back to their father on the mainland.

But Greyjoys were not murdered in Pyke except once in a great while by their brothers, and his brothers were both dead. 

 

Quote

 Lord Balon occupied the Seastone Chair, carved in the shape of a great kraken from an immense block of oily black stone. Legend said that the First Men had found it standing on the shore of Old Wyk when they came to the Iron Islands.

 

He has the perfect measure of his uncles:

Quote

"My uncles pose no threat to me," he declared. "Aeron is drunk on seawater and sanctity. He lives only for his god - "

"His god? Not yours?"

"Mine as well. What is dead can never die." He smiled thinly. "If I make pious noises as required, Damphair will give me no trouble. And my uncle Victarion - "

"Lord Captain of the Iron Fleet, and a fearsome warrior. I have heard them sing of him in the alehouses."

During my lord father's rebellion, he sailed into Lannisport with my uncle Euron and burned the Lannister fleet where it lay at anchor," Theon recalled. "The plan was Euron's, though. Victarion is like some great grey bullock, strong and tireless and dutiful, but not like to win any races. No doubt, he'll serve me as loyally as he has served my lord father. He has neither the wits nor the ambition to plot betrayal."

"Euron Croweye has no lack of cunning, though. I've heard men say terrible things of that one."

Theon shifted his seat. "My uncle Euron has not been seen in the islands for close on two years. He may be dead." If so, it might be for the best. Lord Balon's eldest brother had never given up the Old Way, even for a day. His Silence, with its black sails and dark red hull, was infamous in every port from Ibben to Asshai, it was said.

 

 

He knows what the ironmen are like:

Quote

"The islands are stern and stony places, scant of comfort and bleak of prospect. Death is never far here, and life is mean and meager. Men spend their nights drinking ale and arguing over whose lot is worse, the fisherfolk who fight the sea or the farmers who try and scratch a crop from the poor thin soil. If truth be told, the miners have it worse than either, breaking their backs down in the dark, and for what? Iron, lead, tin, those are our treasures. Small wonder the ironmen of old turned to raiding."

Quote

Once I might have carried you home as a prize, and kept you to wife whether you willed it or no. The ironmen of old did such things. A man had his rock wife, his true bride, ironborn like himself, but he had his salt wives too, women captured on raids."

Quote

The Iron Islands were too sparse and rocky for breeding good horses. Most of the islanders were indifferent riders at best, more comfortable on the deck of a longship than in the saddle. Even the lords rode garrons or shaggy Harlaw ponies, and ox carts were more common than drays. The smallfolk too poor to own either one pulled their own plows through the thin, stony soil.

 

Oh, and apparently Balon was even allowed to write to Theon, albeit rarely:

Quote

A memory prodded at Theon. In one of his rare curt letters, Lord Balon had written of his youngest brother going down in a storm, and turning holy when he washed up safe on shore. "Uncle Aeron?" he said doubtfully.

All the above examples are from Theon I and Theon II, ACOK, and there are more. On reading those chapters, it's apparent Theon actually has a really good measure of what the ironmen and the Iron Islands are like; he just doesn't have practical knowledge of commanding a ship, and he does not know some of the men there personally, both of which could have been easily learnt in time. There's no way Ned could have taught him either of these things.

In fact, there is evidence Theon could have been a better Iron Island king than Balon, due to his time with the Starks:

Quote

Climbing a jumble of stone, Theon looked down on the dead men and dying horses. The horses had deserved better. Tymor and his brothers had gathered up what mounts had come through the fight unhurt, while Urzen and Black Lorren silenced the animals too badly wounded to be saved. The rest of his men were looting the corpses. Gevin Harlaw knelt on a dead man's chest, sawing off his finger to get at a ring. Paying the iron price. My lord father would approve. Theon thought of seeking out the bodies of the two men he'd slain himself to see if they had any jewelry worth the taking, but the notion left a bitter taste in his mouth. He could imagine what Eddard Stark would have said.

Clearly, Ned did try to teach some honor to Theon, considering he is repulsed by this whole 'iron price' nonsense.

Quote

"There is no shame in that. A lord must protect his smallfolk. Cruel places breed cruel peoples, Bran, remember that as you deal with these ironmen. Your lord father did what he could to gentle Theon, but I fear it was too little and too late."

So, no, I don't see any reason to believe Ned ignored Theon at Winterfell or did not try and raise him well; and considering his knowledge of the Iron Islands (as I posted above), he doesn't seem to have been given exclusively Northern education. He  trained under Rodrik Cassel, just like Robb and Jon; and rode with Eddard Stark on his official visits. When all this is being done for him, I don't see why we should assume Ned would not give him the necessary lessons to be a Lord as well. 

 

If Theon's sister and father had accepted him back and given him a chance to be the Lord of the Iron Islands, everything would have worked out extremely well; the Starks had actually raised a Lord who would be friendly to the mainlanders. See below:

Quote

Patrek Mallister was not too ill a fellow; they shared a taste for wenches, wine, and hawking. But when old Lord Jason saw his heir growing overly fond of Theon's company, he had taken Patrek aside to remind him that Seagard had been built to defend the coast against reavers from the Iron Islands, the Greyjoys of Pyke chief among them. Their Booming Tower was named for its immense bronze bell, rung of old to call the townsfolk and farmhands into the castle when longships were sighted on the western horizon.

"Never mind that the bell has been rung just once in three hundred years," Patrek had told Theon the day after, as he shared his father's cautions and a jug of green-apple wine.

"When my brother stormed Seagard," Theon said. Lord Jason had slain Rodrik Greyjoy under the walls of the castle, and thrown the ironmen back into the bay. "If your father supposes I bear him some enmity for that, it's only because he never knew Rodrik."

He would have been a decent leader, better than Balon ever was, and probably would have even tried to reform some of the repugnant beliefs of the ironmen. However, as Theon recognises himself:

Quote

In Pyke, it would seem, the old wars were still being fought. That ought not surprise him. The Iron Islands lived in the past; the present was too hard and bitter to be borne. Besides, his father and uncles were old, and the old lords were like that; they took their dusty feuds to the grave, forgetting nothing and forgiving less.

Another piece of evidence he knows the Isles really well; this is actually the biggest problem with Balon, and in general the Iron Islands as a whole; they aren't willing to change. 

Theon was screwed over by his idiotic, stubborn father unwilling to put his pride and hatred aside, and his sister who didn't want her place stolen by him. If that hadn't happened, Theon would have been the perfect Iron Islands Lord from the perspective of the mainlanders and the Iron Throne, and for the Iron Islands in the long run. I'd say, Ned actually did his job well.

 

[Runaway Penguin]

8 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

There is no proof that this ever happened, when Jon who has said that Robb was with Ned during important meetings never mentioned Theon. Also for Theon is always a reminder what he would happen if his father broke the truce.

 

Well, he was the sword bearer. As such, the sword (as a symbol) - and thus him - would be in on formal occassions. Even if sheathed, lord's sword is an important thing and needs to be seen.

So there are strong indications that it happened. There are no indications it did not happen. 

 

EDIT: On numerous other ocassions you see that being a squire to a Lord / King is seen as an important place - not only of honor, but also of education for leadership. That is where Theon was. And no, it did not consist of formal lessons, it did consist of being able to see the Lord/King in action. Practical education and again, compared to Medieval Europe, with extremely good theoretical element.

[King Ned Stark]

@Little Scribe of Naath, excellent summary.

I think Ned and Robert's plan for the Iron Islands would have succeeded had the Wot5K's had never started.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

I think Ned and Robert's primary aim was to ensure the Iron Islands didn't rebel again by keeping Theon hostage. Perhaps their secondary aim was to raise Theon in a way which would ensure his loyalty if/when he ascended to the Seastone Chair. We don't really know.

To be fair though, if that was their aim it almost worked - Theon was entirely prepared to bring the Islands into the war on the North's side. Victarion in AFFC makes it clear that he would have probably backed Theon if he was still around. Botley and others are clearly predisposed to supporting him as heir after Balon dies. 

[MinotaurWarrior]

6 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Snip

---

Theon was screwed over by his idiotic, stubborn father unwilling to put his pride and hatred aside, and his sister who didn't want her place stolen by him. If that hadn't happened, Theon would have been the perfect Iron Islands Lord from the perspective of the mainlanders and the Iron Throne, and for the Iron Islands in the long run. I'd say, Ned actually did his job well.

:applause: 

[INCBlackbird]

9 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

snip

wow! all very good catches! Before I read this I did think that there might have been a problem with the education but now I don't think so anymore. Though like I said in my previous post, I always thought that the biggest problem is Theon's emotional issues. Which are pretty much unavoidable in the situation Theon was in, no matter how good his education was, no matter how good he was treated.

You brought up this quote though: "Your lord father did what he could to gentle Theon, but I fear it was too little and too late." This was something Luwin said to Bran in clash if I remember correctly? That qoute in particular has always bugged me, in particular because Asha described Theon has a meek, shy child, doesn't sound like a typical iron born does he? that's probably why his father didn't like him and his brothers bullied him. Yet, Ned assumed that he had to be gentled all the same, he prejudiced Theon, which I don't blame him for cause in this kind of world everyone prejudices everyone from other families so it's only normal. But it shows why Theon felt so unwelcome, if Ned did it certainly others did too. It's only normal that he'd internalise that stuff and cling to his iron born heritage even more.

That said, I think people talk very little about Theon's relationship with Ned Stark, probably because they barely even interract in canon. But I think it's a very interesting relationship, I wrote about it in my book on Theon.

So Theon is of course looking for parental figures now that he's lost his parents (at least for the moment) he's looking for affection and he even admits that he wants to be a part of the Stark family, when you look at his a clash of kings chapters he mentions Ned a lot, the moment he is in Winterfell he's constantly trying to emulate him, he seems to want to make him proud even if he's dead. Ned was very important to Theon, he feels like they had an emotional bond, while Ned only mentions Theon once in all his 15 chapters and it's about using him to get his father's support in case of war. While Ned is a pramatist who is very good at separating his emotions from his duty, Theon is controlled by his emotions. And both of them expect the other to be able to think like they do. Theon is Ned's duty, he's neatly put him away in a box that says duty so he doesn't get emotionally attached just in case he has to kill him (obviously he hopes that it never comes to that). He does what is expected of him when it comes to Theon, he feeds him, gives him a bed to sleep in, treats him according to his status, teaches him... but he keeps an emotional distance from him. This is very confusing to Theon because his instincts tell him that if he's treated well that must mean that Ned cares about him in some way, he also desparately wants to believe that he does, not just because he wants to be a part of the Stark family but also because Ned holds his life in his hands and if he cares about him it's easier for Theon to believe that he won't kill him even if his father does rebel again. Theon relies on Ned caring about him while Ned relies on not caring about Theon. It's a really interesting dynamic if you ask me.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

37 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

You brought up this quote though: "Your lord father did what he could to gentle Theon, but I fear it was too little and too late." This was something Luwin said to Bran in clash if I remember correctly? That qoute in particular has always bugged me, in particular because Asha described Theon has a meek, shy child, doesn't sound like a typical iron born does he? that's probably why his father didn't like him and his brothers bullied him. Yet, Ned assumed that he had to be gentled all the same, he prejudiced Theon, which I don't blame him for cause in this kind of world everyone prejudices everyone from other families so it's only normal. But it shows why Theon felt so unwelcome, if Ned did it certainly others did too. It's only normal that he'd internalise that stuff and cling to his iron born heritage even more.

Thanks, @King Ned Stark, @MinotaurWarrior, and INCBlackbird! I think what Luwin meant by that quote "gentle Theon" was - he tried to rectify some of the Ironborn attitudes which Theon had. He says right before that "the ironmen are cruel people from a cruel place", so clearly that's the context. I think I wasn't very clear about it in my post.

Ned seemed to have succeeded though - Theon had enough knowledge about his own culture but could tell which practices were repulsive and which were not, I think. I doubt he would have done things like carrying off women against their will, keeping up hate towards mainlanders and isolating themselves for no reason, and I already provided the quote about how he doesn't like the "iron price" crap. In short, Theon would have been a pretty good lord for the Isles.

37 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

[snip]

Agree with you on all this. I didn't explore this in my post because the topic of the thread was how Ned didn't teach Theon necessary skills - I think we have quite a bit of evidence to prove that Theon received the same education, martial arts training, was allowed to ride with Ned and Robb wherever they went, interacted and befriended Northerners, and was given a place at the table with the Starks. However, Ned and Cat didn't give him parental love, as you say, they just did their duty and did it pretty well (unlike, let's say, Jon Arryn with Ned).

Still, I feel, the real betrayers for Theon were his own family - if Balon had put his stupid pride and hatred aside, and if Asha hadn't been such a jerk to him, rather if she would have supported him like Bran/Jon with Robb, Theon would have turned out a pretty competent, friendly and successful lord from the perspective of both Iron Islands and the Throne (as I showed in many quotes above.). After all, what Theon really really wants is home, family, acceptance - if his father and sister had given that to him, he wouldn't have started yearning to be like the Starks. On rereading Theon, it became clear to me that he took pride in being ironborn and always wanted to return home and lead his people, but did not harbor the old hatred and the dumb ideas of his father. After spending a couple of years in the Isles, he would have had the backing of people there as well as learnt how to captain a ship and stuff, and could have grown into a respected lord.

ETA: You have a book on Theon? Wow!

[INCBlackbird]

4 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Thanks, INCBlackbird! I think what Luwin meant by that quote "gentle Theon" was - he tried to rectify some of the Ironborn attitudes which Theon had. He says right before that "the ironmen are cruel people from a cruel place", so clearly that's the context. I think I wasn't very clear about it in my post.

Ned seemed to have succeeded though - Theon had enough knowledge about his own culture but could tell which practices were repulsive and which were not, I think. I doubt he would have done things like carrying off women against their will, keeping up hate towards mainlanders and isolating themselves for no reason, and I already provided the quote about how he doesn't like the "iron price" crap. In short, Theon would have been a pretty good lord for the Isles.

Agree with you on all this. I didn't explore this in my post because the topic of the thread was how Ned didn't teach Theon necessary skills - I think we have quite a bit of evidence to prove that Theon received the same education, martial arts training, was allowed to ride with Ned and Robb wherever they went, interacted and befriended Northerners, and was given a place at the table with the Starks. However, Ned and Cat didn't give him parental love, as you say, they just did their duty and did it pretty well (unlike, let's say, Jon Arryn with Ned).

Still, I feel, the real betrayers for Theon were his own family - if Balon had put his stupid pride and hatred aside, and if Asha hadn't been such a jerk to him, rather if she would have supported him like Bran/Jon with Robb, Theon would have turned out a pretty competent, friendly and successful lord from the perspective of both Iron Islands and the Throne (as I showed in many quotes above.). After all, what Theon really really wants is home, family, acceptance - if his father and sister had given that to him, he wouldn't have started yearning to be like the Starks. On rereading Theon, it became clear to me that he took pride in being ironborn and always wanted to return home and lead his people, but did not harbor the old hatred and the dumb ideas of his father. After spending a couple of years in the Isles, he would have had the backing of people there as well as learnt how to captain a ship and stuff, and could have grown into a respected lord.

ETA: You have a book on Theon? Wow!

yeah that's probably what he meant and I find that a bit of a prejudice either on Luwin's part or on Ned's or perhaps both. because I don't think that Theon had those attitudes, I think they just assumed that he did, which like I said is only normal, I don't blame either of them for making such assumptions but I do think that Theon felt it.

Oh yeah, Ned definitly succeeded. I actually find it quite ironic that Theon is always telling himself that he's such a typical ironborn and the sea is in his blood and so on (clearly he's trying to convince himself because he's insecure about it) but at the same time he doesn't realise that he completely misunderstands his own culture. I think you also brought up the quote where Theon says that everyone is stealing from the corpses of the people he killed and he doesn't want to cause it leaves a bitter taste in his mouth. that's his completely rejecting the basis of his own culture. I think there's nothing wrong with his moral code, and that has a lot to do with Ned's education but I don't think he'd have been a good leader, mainly because he's too messed up of a person to lead anyone. He would have to learn a lot in order to be a good ruler, I think that if he ends up as the ruler of the iron islands by the end of the story maybe he could be a good ruler cause he's been through a lot now, he's learned a lot and he will learn a lot more by then probably.

yep, I agree they did their duty exactly like they should have. I think that the situation with Ned and Jon Arryn was different though, Ned wasn't a hostage so I don't think there was a problem with him giving Ned parental love. with Theon Ned couldn't really do that.

I don't fully agree with that, I mean, I agree partially, cause his family definitly sucks. Balon is an asshole and he's definitly responsible for how messed up his son turned out (as were his brothers). Asha, while she means well, treated her brother like shit and even if when she was trying to help him she goes about it in the completely wrong way that gets Theon to act in the exact oppesite way then she wanted him to. And it's definitly true that what he wanted was a home and to be accepted, that's very clear, I think that at that point he was already too much of an emotional mess, I think he could come out of it in the long run but I think it'd take a lot of time and a lot of growing up because it's pretty clear to me that he's far from grown up. I think he would have been fine till something went wrong, because Theon can't deal with problems, unless he took the advice from Asha of Dagmar (which I don't think he would in the beginning) things would have gone wrong. Theon has the tendency to deny the truth when it doesn't suit him, you can't do that as a leader. I think he definitly could learn to be a good leader though, and I really hope he gets the chance. Either way, things would have most definitly been better if his family supported him, he wouldn't have needed a reason to desparately grasp back at Winterfell and a proxy Stark by leading it because he'd have had his family.

Yep, I wrote a book on Theon, I finished it almost a year ago now I think. And I gave it to Alfie Allen, he read it (don't ask me how I survived him telling me that) there's a link here: https://www.amazon.com/RISING-HARDER-STRONGER-depth-formation-ebook/dp/B016S9MHIY#nav-subnav

Also, I put up a part of it (an analysis of all his chapters) on here: http://incblackbird.tumblr.com/post/135984800571/what-is-dead-may-never-die-a-theon-greyjoy