Varys Did Not Intend for Tyrion to Kill Tywin

[Absoleas]

I honestly don't think Varys was planning for Tyrion to kill Tywin all along. Granted, when he revealed how to get into the Hand's room to Tyrion he surely knew it wasn't going to end nicely. I like to imagine that even though he had not thought about doing it that way beforehand he decided to seize the moment and see how it would turn out. It's not like it was going to change anything for him, after freeing Tyrion he probably needed to go into hiding even if Tywin hadn't died

[Lord Varys]

On 20.8.2016 at 4:40 AM, chrisdaw said:

Ofcourse Varys didn't, the idea has always been nonsense. That Tyrion is so important to him that he needs to destroy Tyrion's Lannister link is just absurd, and he could have had Tywin offed and gone to ground at any stage he wanted, much more surely in another manner, just as he did Kevan. Varys planned to stay above ground for a while longer atleast, hence why he played Jaime's game in the first place, though he may have had some inclination to save Tyrion from a personal perspective, but it didn't turn out that he could stay in the open, that's ok, he's adaptable.

The problem with that line of reasoning is that Tyrion is actually only of very little use to Varys and Illyrio after Varys sent him to Illyrio. They never really needed him, and they could have forced him to write down his dragonlore knowledge without ever allowing him to travel with Aegon to Daenerys.

The fact that Tyrion is a main character usually blinds one to the fact but there is no reason why the hell Varys should not have cut Tyrion's throat to throw his corpse into the sea after Jaime handed him over to him.

There has to be an explanation for this. And that has either to do with Tyrion's character (or what Varys sees in him) or his true heritage (about which Varys might be informed).

[dariopatke]

On 8/20/2016 at 3:07 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Hmm... Would you please kindly direct me to the relevant passage? 

 Certainly, sorry for late response, I do not have much time these days.

''Your father and I worked more closely than you know ...'' Doran in The Watcher

 ''It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him.''  Doran in The Princess in the Tower

At the moment of Tywins death he had some reasons to die peacefully, almost entire Realm was under Kings peace, his son was home, his problematic grandson is dead and Tommen is King which means only good for 7K, he has strong relations with Tyrells, Cersei is queen mother and Lady of the Rock, Kevan is there to help and Tyrion is fugitive. He most certainly wasnt stripped of all that he holds most dear when he died.

Ofc, this is really open to interpretation, but I got a feeling from all of this that it was not Dorans (and first quote implies it was Oberyns, too) plan to kill Tywin at that point. If he wanted Tywin dead, he could have offered Arianne to Willas after Renly died and seat them on IT.

[dariopatke]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The problem with that line of reasoning is that Tyrion is actually only of very little use to Varys and Illyrio after Varys sent him to Illyrio. They never really needed him, and they could have forced him to write down his dragonlore knowledge without ever allowing him to travel with Aegon to Daenerys.

The fact that Tyrion is a main character usually blinds one to the fact but there is no reason why the hell Varys should not have cut Tyrion's throat to throw his corpse into the sea after Jaime handed him over to him.

There has to be an explanation for this. And that has either to do with Tyrion's character (or what Varys sees in him) or his true heritage (about which Varys might be informed).

Maybe to gain support of Dorne, North and Riverlands that clearly hate Tywin? And dragons, too. But it would be comical if Tyrion knows more about dragons than library in Volantis.

What use will Varys have from Tyrion being Targ when he cant prove it? If Varys doesnt have Tyrek, Tyrion is really important as future Lord of CR, after everything that has happened and will happen Aegon will need loyal Warden of the West and Tyrion owes his life to them, two lives actually, why else did Jon find it so important to save him?

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, dariopatke said:

Maybe to gain support of Dorne, North and Riverlands that clearly hate Tywin?

Tyrion is convicted kingslayer and kinslayer and an ugly dwarf. Nobody is ever going to rally behind him, ever. The West and the Lannisters most certainly will hate him until the day he dies regardless whether he has 'a claim' to Casterly Rock or not.

And neither Dorne nor the North or the Riverlands give a damn about Tyrion. They would most likely want to see him dead, too, considering that he dared to marry Sansa.

1 minute ago, dariopatke said:

What use will Varys have from Tyrion being Targ when he cant prove it? If Varys doesnt have Tyrek, Tyrion is really important as future Lord of CR, after everything that has happened and will happen Aegon will need loyal Warden of the West and Tyrion owes his life to them, two lives actually, why else did Jon find it so important to save him?

Varys doesn't need a future Lord of Casterly Rock anyway. Putting Tyrion in charge of the West would not really help Aegon's cause. Nobody is going to want the dwarf there who not only murdered King Joffrey but also his own father.

But if Tyrion is Aerys' son he has a pretty good chance to become a dragonrider and help the whole Targaryen restoration on that front. Not to mention that he and Varys could thus be (distant) cousins.

[dariopatke]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion is convicted kingslayer and kinslayer and an ugly dwarf. Nobody is ever going to rally behind him, ever. The West and the Lannisters most certainly will hate him until the day he dies regardless whether he has 'a claim' to Casterly Rock or not.

And neither Dorne nor the North or the Riverlands give a damn about Tyrion. They would most likely want to see him dead, too, considering that he dared to marry Sansa.

Varys doesn't need a future Lord of Casterly Rock anyway. Putting Tyrion in charge of the West would not really help Aegon's cause. Nobody is going to want the dwarf there who not only murdered King Joffrey but also his own father.

But if Tyrion is Aerys' son he has a pretty good chance to become a dragonrider and help the whole Targaryen restoration on that front. Not to mention that he and Varys could thus be (distant) cousins.

I agree with this, I was just writing first thins that came in my head, maybe to give him to someone as a gift, like you said a lot houses would want his head. There must be something important about him and I dont know what.

He does need some Lannister who is loyal to certain extent, not hostile at least.

I am not sure if that would hurt Aegon as much as it would Lannisters, Robert let Jaime to keep his cloak (for worse crime I would say, but equal at least) and yet people resent Jaime, not Robert

Tyrion being son of Aerys doen't change many things, Nettles rode a dragon after all and Varys knows it.

Very distant cousins with bad blood between them.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, dariopatke said:

I agree with this, I was just writing first thins that came in my head, maybe to give him to someone as a gift, like you said a lot houses would want his head. There must be something important about him and I dont know what.

He does need some Lannister who is loyal to certain extent, not hostile at least.

Yeah, but Aegon and Varys would be well-advised to offer CR to some Lannister cousin who does not antagonize the West by claiming it or provide Cersei (should she still be alive at this point) with more fuel. That could work especially well if there are Lords in the West/Lannister cousins who are more than happy to team up with a Targaryen at a certain point in the future. Just as Nestor Royce was happy to accept the Gates of the Moon from Littlefinger Daven or Damion Lannister might accept Casterly Rock from Aegon's hands.

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I am not sure if that would hurt Aegon as much as it would Lannisters, Robert let Jaime to keep his cloak (for worse crime I would say, but equal at least) and yet people resent Jaime, not Robert.

It would definitely cause more problems for Aegon than it could solve. Tyrion would only be a good option for a Lord of Casterly Rock if he could actually deliver the loyalty of the Westermen to Aegon. But how likely is that? If Tyrion would need Aegon's help to subdue the West and take possession of CR he would be no help at all. He would be a liability.

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Tyrion being son of Aerys doen't change many things, Nettles rode a dragon after all and Varys knows it.

 

Not sure if Varys knows a lot about Nettles but if he does he might also know that she was as likely to have Targaryen/Velaryon/dragonlord blood as the other lowborn dragonriders. Ulf, Hugh, and Nettles were all Dragonstonians by birth as far as we know, and Addam of Hull was a Velaryon bastard.

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Very distant cousins with bad blood between them.

That depends on the exact degree of relations. But there doesn't seem to be any bad blood between Varys and Selmy, either, despite the fact that the man actually slew Maelys the Monstrous, the last Blackfyre pretender. If Varys is some Blackfyre descendant and ignored that there is little reason to assume he would blame Tyrion for being Aerys' son.

[Dofs]

The problem is that GRRM had personally confirmed that Varys had a role in Tywin's murder that he hadn't revealed:

As to precisely what happened here, that’s something I don’t really want to talk about because there’s still aspects of it I haven’t revealed that will be revealed in later books. But the role of Varys in all of this is also something to be considered.

So what could have been Varys' role in all of this, if Varys didn't intend for Tyrion to kill Tywin?

[dariopatke]

Just now, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, but Aegon and Varys would be well-advised to offer CR to some Lannister cousin who does not antagonize the West by claiming it or provide Cersei (should she still be alive at this point) with more fuel. That could work especially well if there are Lords in the West/Lannister cousins who are more than happy to team up with a Targaryen at a certain point in the future. Just as Nestor Royce was happy to accept the Gates of the Moon from Littlefinger Daven or Damion Lannister might accept Casterly Rock from Aegon's hands.

It would definitely cause more problems for Aegon than it could solve. Tyrion would only be a good option for a Lord of Casterly Rock if he could actually deliver the loyalty of the Westermen to Aegon. But how likely is that? If Tyrion would need Aegon's help to subdue the West and take possession of CR he would be no help at all. He would be a liability.

Not sure if Varys knows a lot about Nettles but if he does he might also know that she was as likely to have Targaryen/Velaryon/dragonlord blood as the other lowborn dragonriders. Ulf, Hugh, and Nettles were all Dragonstonians by birth as far as we know, and Addam of Hull was a Velaryon bastard.

That depends on the exact degree of relations. But there doesn't seem to be any bad blood between Varys and Selmy, either, despite the fact that the man actually slew Maelys the Monstrous, the last Blackfyre pretender. If Varys is some Blackfyre descendant and let that slide there is little reason to assume he would blame Tyrion for being Aerys' son.

Like I said about him being Lord, I was just a random thought, it is really hard to see why would they keep him. If they want dragonblood they have Lys and Volantis, again why have kinslaying kinglsaying demon monkey ride a dragon if you can have handsome Valiryan to do it? You already dismissed him being future Lord (as a matter of fact I think he is among problematic people that Daenerys will bring to Westeros, only Barristan has good reputation from her followers), if they want his head they can take it, library of Volantis has more knowledge about dragons that Tyrion could ever know, other information is not the case since Varys knows everything in KL,...

Because Varys had to play his game, him holding grudges against Selmy raises suspicions. On the other hand he had no obligations to keep Tyrion alive.

And after all since Blackfyres are bastards they would want every other male Targ gone and Daenerys to be wed. Tyrion can even put a claim because if he is a bastard and Aegon descends from bastards... oh and Tyrion would even get a dragon,  really dangerous. He is so full of hate that it is really dangerous to give him be a captian, let a lone a general.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Dofs said:

The problem is that GRRM had personally confirmed that Varys had a role in Tywin's murder that he hadn't revealed:

As to precisely what happened here, that’s something I don’t really want to talk about because there’s still aspects of it I haven’t revealed that will be revealed in later books. But the role of Varys in all of this is also something to be considered.

So what could have been Varys' role in all of this, if Varys didn't intend for Tyrion to kill Tywin?

This could more refer to the reason Shae was there. But then, that would mean that Varys knew Shae was there and chose not to tell Tyrion about that or properly prepared him for that, suggesting he wanted Tyrion to kill Tywin, Tyrion and Tywin to kill each other, Tywin to kill Tyrion (and thus cause further bad blood between the Lannisters) or Tyrion just to find out what Shae and Tywin are, so that he could use him for his own plans.

Varys would have been okay with all that, one assumes, but Tyrion killing Tywin and realizing what sort of twisted piece of shit he was definitely was the preferred outcome. That is pretty easily inferred from Varys tittering and his quite ironic comment 'And now you do' when Tyrion tells him what he has done to Shae and Tywin, and how he finally learned what he - Tywin - was.

Varys is neither surprised about the outcome nor about the things Tyrion discovered.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, dariopatke said:

 Certainly, sorry for late response, I do not have much time these days.

''Your father and I worked more closely than you know ...'' Doran in The Watcher

 ''It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him.''  Doran in The Princess in the Tower

At the moment of Tywins death he had some reasons to die peacefully, almost entire Realm was under Kings peace, his son was home, his problematic grandson is dead and Tommen is King which means only good for 7K, he has strong relations with Tyrells, Cersei is queen mother and Lady of the Rock, Kevan is there to help and Tyrion is fugitive. He most certainly wasnt stripped of all that he holds most dear when he died.

Ofc, this is really open to interpretation, but I got a feeling from all of this that it was not Dorans (and first quote implies it was Oberyns, too) plan to kill Tywin at that point. If he wanted Tywin dead, he could have offered Arianne to Willas after Renly died and seat them on IT.

Thank you. 

[sifth]

I'm not sure if Tyrion killing his father was a part of Varys plans or not. Seems more like a disadvantage to him if anything, since force Varys into the shadows, in place of working in plain sight like he did in the first 3 books.

[Tucu]

My guess is that Tywin was already a dead man and Varys just saw a chance to create a bit more chaos in the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. Tyrion's actions hide Tywin being poisoned (by the Martells?) and brought a potential lord of the Westerlands into Aegon's team.

These little tricks can have long term consequences, take the Highgarden coins he left in Rugen's cell.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, but Aegon and Varys would be well-advised to offer CR to some Lannister cousin who does not antagonize the West by claiming it or provide Cersei (should she still be alive at this point) with more fuel. That could work especially well if there are Lords in the West/Lannister cousins who are more than happy to team up with a Targaryen at a certain point in the future. Just as Nestor Royce was happy to accept the Gates of the Moon from Littlefinger Daven or Damion Lannister might accept Casterly Rock from Aegon's hands.

It would definitely cause more problems for Aegon than it could solve. Tyrion would only be a good option for a Lord of Casterly Rock if he could actually deliver the loyalty of the Westermen to Aegon. But how likely is that? If Tyrion would need Aegon's help to subdue the West and take possession of CR he would be no help at all. He would be a liability.

Or if he had a dragon. 

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

Or if he had a dragon. 

Not sure if a dragonriding Tyrion would even want to claim Casterly Rock. A dragonrider can have it all.

But the point here was what Varys intended to do with Tyrion in relation to the Aegon plan. Not what Tyrion might want to do when he eventually had a dragon. I doubt Varys wants Tyrion to claim a dragon so that he can force the Lords of the West to suffer him as Lord of Casterly Rock.

Aren't you pitching some idea that Tyrion will betray Dany in favor of Aegon for Casterly Rock? I find that less likely than the idea that Tyrion would want to claim the Iron Throne for himself (either as Aerys' son or just because he has a dragon depending the thing grows much larger in the meantime) simply because dragons can mean power and the Iron Throne means real power while the Rock is just a rock, basically.

[chrisdaw]

On 23 August 2016 at 8:24 AM, Lord Varys said:

The problem with that line of reasoning is that Tyrion is actually only of very little use to Varys and Illyrio after Varys sent him to Illyrio.

It's not a problem, Varys doesn't need a reason to not kill someone he doesn't have to.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It's not a problem, Varys doesn't need a reason to not kill someone he doesn't have to.

That is not the full reason of it. Why do he and Illyrio subsequently send Tyrion to Aegon and Daenerys? They must have a reason for that.

[Runaway Penguin]

The reason is simple. He is an apt administrator, smart, knows Westerosi politics, on the other hand poses little threat to their positions... And is a heir to Casterly Rock. Currently disinherited to be sure, but Lannisters would be hard pressed to oppose new Queen's annulation of that, especially if she asks them "You and what dragons?"

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, Runaway Penguin said:

The reason is simple. He is an apt administrator, smart, knows Westerosi politics, on the other hand poses little threat to their positions... And is a heir to Casterly Rock. Currently disinherited to be sure, but Lannisters would be hard pressed to oppose new Queen's annulation of that, especially if she asks them "You and what dragons?"

Aegon/Dany would still be ill-advised to grant Casterly Rock to a convincted kingslayer and kinslayer. Rewarding criminals is never a good idea, even more so if we are talking about unforgivable crimes. What could Aegon or Dany gain by naming Tyrion Lord of Casterly Rock aside from the enmity of the Lords of the West?

Varys himself is much better suited to fill Tyrion's role. He is smarter, knows Westerosi politics much better, and is an apt administrator, too.

[Runaway Penguin]

Varys is not really administrator. He is manipulator, but he does seem to prefer other people to run the kingdom. He knows his limits.

Kingslayer? Well, we have a kinslayer who was not only pardoned, but allowed to still serve in the Kingsguard - and by the time it comes to westeros, Tyrion might have enough evidence to get out of that one. Kinslayer? Well, setting aside the cuckold possibility, there were other famous kinslayers. Imp has bad enough rep anyway, the demon monkey will not suffer much and more. Just look at Brynden Rivers, bearing the kinslayer moniker for so long.