TheCasualObserver Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 8 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said: Wyman does say that most of them deep down know Roose was behind the RW. Is it even deep down though? Roose was the sole noble survivor of the massacre and is immediately given the wardenship of the north by the enemy. The existence of collusion is common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreOrLess Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 13 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said: Yes, but disaster for plot reasons, not political ones. Militarily and political speaking, Ramsay goes from strength to strength in early season 6 when logic dictates he should be floundering. Murdering his father, mother-in-law and brother is welcomed by his bannermen and he receives the support of the two strongest houses in two successive episodes, without really needing to do anything to get them. You can argue that Ramsay's position was weak, but the show provides no evidence of that being the case - quite the opposite. In the end, neither Ramsay's bloodthirsty nature, nor his political mistakes contribute in any way to his downfall. He loses because LF teleports thousands of enemy knights onto the battlefield. Before that his power was shown to be supreme, which is what I take issue with. The Karstarks and the Umbers though join up not because of any political skill on Ramsays part but due to the Starks being his enemy and the threat of the widlings respectively plus you could argue the odds looking like they favoured the Boltons much moreso than they did when Stannis was marching on WInterfell with his full force. Ramsays bloodthirsty nature as shown in the shows pink letter is what motivates Jon and the Wildings to take him on in the first place, Roose directly advises against threatening the Watch. Beyond that as said Ramsay also takes a risk engaging in open battle when he doesn't really need to, he could stay in Winterfell and even with the Vale forces likely hold it against opponents without large stores for a siege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 Are we believing the most contrived plot line in the show as realistic? I could see the Northern lords shunning the Starks for their failures but I can't see them choosing Ramsay over anyone. Ramsay flayed one of their own lords. It was enough reason not to choose his side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon in the North Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 On August 22, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Stannis is the man....nis said: I'm not saying join him in the middle of the storm I'm saying join him when he was at CB heck for SJ that would of been nor problem Only two chose his side, both with viable reasons. The rest either joined the Starks or stayed neutral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 1 hour ago, khal drogon said: Ramsay flayed one of their own lords. Aerys burned more than a handful of people alive as his court watched, and houses and houses fought a great war for "him". Status quo is not trivial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 6 hours ago, NutBurz said: Aerys burned more than a handful of people alive as his court watched, and housesnd houses fought a great war for "him". Status quo is not trivial. Yeah but Aerys represented a 300 year old dynasty and he had his heir Rhaegar. Boltons got power through the Red wedding which involved murder of the Northern lords. And their heir is a raping flaying bastard. That ain't status quo. If they went for Status quo fighting for the Starks is the right way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 4 minutes ago, khal drogon said: Yeah but Aerys represented a 300 year old dynasty and he had his heir Rhaegar. Boltons got power through the Red wedding which involved murder of the Northern lords. And their heir is a raping flaying bastard. That ain't status quo. If they went for Status quo fighting for the Starks is the right way. So, how do you picture Ramsay Bolton losing his power, could you describe it? He kills Roose, then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khal drogon Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, NutBurz said: So, how do you picture Ramsay Bolton losing his power, could you describe? He kills Roose, then... Maybe ally with the Karstarks and his bitches. Certainly he should not have got as much support as he did. Especially Umber's. Umber hated his father so he gave the sole Stark heir to Ramsay? Instead of declaring himself the regent of the KitN? He must be a moron. The lords should be suspicious of the legitimising factor escaping Winterfell. They should be suspicious of Roose and Walda's untimely death. Glover shouldn't have told a silly ass reason to avoid the fight, then completely make a turn after the battle. Anyway realistically Ramsay should have an edge only because he has the castle of Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 14 minutes ago, khal drogon said: Maybe ally with the Karstarks and his bitches. Certainly he should not have got as much support as he did. Especially Umber's. Umber hated his father so he gave the sole Stark heir to Ramsay? Instead of declaring himself the regent of the KitN? He must be a moron. The lords should be suspicious of the legitimising factor escaping Winterfell. They should be suspicious of Roose and Walda's untimely death. Glover shouldn't have told a silly ass reason to avoid the fight, then completely make a turn after the battle. Anyway realistically Ramsay should have an edge only because he has the castle of Winterfell. ^This Umber joining Ramsay and the logic behind it threw all "realism" out the window Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 1 hour ago, khal drogon said: Maybe ally with the Karstarks and his bitches. Isn´t that what happened? 1 hour ago, khal drogon said: Certainly he should not have got as much support as he did. How much support is that? Karstarks, Umbers and Freys. 1 hour ago, khal drogon said: Umber hated his father so he gave the sole Stark heir to Ramsay? Instead of declaring himself the regent of the KitN? He must be a moron. I don´t think he necessarily hated his father, but that´s what he would say to Ramsey to convince him not kill him for belonging to a house famously loyal to the Starks. Declare himself regent? With 1000 men? Ramsey marches on Last Hearth and he´s dead. He even gives reason for the crown (and other greedy northern Lord) to worry about him, with this talk of regency. That´s being a moron. 1 hour ago, khal drogon said: The lords should be suspicious of the legitimising factor escaping Winterfell. Why? Because you saw it happen? 1 hour ago, khal drogon said: They should be suspicious of Roose and Walda's untimely death. Ok, say they´re suspicious of that, say they know for a fact that Ramsay killed them, what can they do about it? He´s in command of 3500+ men. 1 hour ago, khal drogon said: Glover shouldn't have told a silly ass reason to avoid the fight, then completely make a turn after the battle. Says the person who´s probably never been directly responsible for hundreds of lives. 1 hour ago, khal drogon said: Anyway realistically Ramsay should have an edge only because he has the castle of Winterfell. Yes, the main stronghold in the North (ps-which is also conveniently warm), manned by more and better trained/equipped/fed/rested soldiers than any other house and even the hypothetical combination of several of them. Only that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreOrLess Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 1 hour ago, khal drogon said: Maybe ally with the Karstarks and his bitches. Certainly he should not have got as much support as he did. Especially Umber's. Umber hated his father so he gave the sole Stark heir to Ramsay? Instead of declaring himself the regent of the KitN? He must be a moron. The lords should be suspicious of the legitimising factor escaping Winterfell. They should be suspicious of Roose and Walda's untimely death. Glover shouldn't have told a silly ass reason to avoid the fight, then completely make a turn after the battle. Anyway realistically Ramsay should have an edge only because he has the castle of Winterfell. Umber openly declaring Rickon would have been incredibly foolish, he does that and instantly he becomes a target for the Boltons without the forces to hold them off. Keeping Rickon in secret for potential use in the future should more favourable circumstances present themselves is smart and who's do say that isn't exactly what he was doing? His hand was clearly forced by the Wildings though who outnumbered him, not at all unrealistic he would view that as a massive threat considering his family has been fighting Wilding raiders for generations. In That situation Rickon was useful in creating an alliance with the Boltons, especially as he wouldn't swear to Ramsay either out of personal dislike or dislike of the Boltons from his troops. Seems "logic" is getting confused with "what I wanted to see" or "what happened in the books". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 3 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said: Umber openly declaring Rickon would have been incredibly foolish, he does that and instantly he becomes a target for the Boltons without the forces to hold them off. Keeping Rickon in secret for potential use in the future should more favourable circumstances present themselves is smart and who's do say that isn't exactly what he was doing? His hand was clearly forced by the Wildings though who outnumbered him, not at all unrealistic he would view that as a massive threat considering his family has been fighting Wilding raiders for generations. In That situation Rickon was useful in creating an alliance with the Boltons, especially as he wouldn't swear to Ramsay either out of personal dislike or dislike of the Boltons from his troops. Seems "logic" is getting confused with "what I wanted to see" or "what happened in the books". Yeah no 1) Ramsay himself said the Umbers have the strength to challenge them, 2) Last Hearth is a castle and taking it wouldn't be easy for Ramsay especially with no crown or Frey support, and 3) The Umbers are "the best fighters in the North" so them declaring Rickon definitely would of gotten support from Wyman and Glover and others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreOrLess Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 12 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said: Yeah no 1) Ramsay himself said the Umbers have the strength to challenge them, 2) Last Hearth is a castle and taking it wouldn't be easy for Ramsay especially with no crown or Frey support, and 3) The Umbers are "the best fighters in the North" so them declaring Rickon definitely would of gotten support from Wyman and Glover and others Ramsay does not say that the Umbers have the strength to challenge him themselves, he says that the Boltons, Karstarks and Umbers together have the strength to take on anyone in the North. It might not have been "easy" for Ramsay to take Last Hearth but why give him a reason to have you in his sights? again it makes much more sense to keep Rickon in secret unlike circumstances are favourable to declare him or in this case hand him over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 6 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said: Ramsay does not say that the Umbers have the strength to challenge him themselves, he says that the Boltons, Karstarks and Umbers together have the strength to take on anyone in the North. It might not have been "easy" for Ramsay to take Last Hearth but why give him a reason to have you in his sights? again it makes much more sense to keep Rickon in secret unlike circumstances are favourable to declare him or in this case hand him over. Roose dying and a bastard in control isn't favorable circumstances? Come on anyone who wasn't bound to the script would of been all over Ramsay in this case and still I go back that the time to do something was S5 and no amount of "Stannis has a icky religion" is gonna change the fact that it would of been a 1000 more logical to help him out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 2 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said: anyone who wasn't bound to the script would of been all over Ramsay in this case And yet, no one has explained exactly how this would happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis is the man....nis Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 3 minutes ago, NutBurz said: And yet, no one has explained exactly how this would happen. Declaring Rickon king and gathering everyone else and sieging WF seems to be a logical plan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NutBurz Posted August 25, 2016 Share Posted August 25, 2016 38 minutes ago, Stannis is the man....nis said: Declaring Rickon king and gathering everyone else and sieging WF seems to be a logical plan And what do you suppose the Boltons, the Karstarks, the Freys and the Crown would be doing when they saw massive movement of troops throughout the entire north, or when they heard about this king boy? By the way, the Umbers can´t even handle 2000 wildlings. Antagonizing the Boltons more than doubles the amount of enemies he has to face, with actual soldiers, horses, equipment, provisions, etcc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 On 8/19/2016 at 6:15 PM, Stannis is the man....nis said: Then why did no one side with Stannis? Stannis is a Southerner who did not come to Robb's aid during their battle, actually threatened the North if he became King, and has less of a legitimate right to leading Northerners than the Bolton's, who, while traitorous fiends, were still Northerners who understood the lands and customs better. They didn't even want to side with Jon who was a bastard and Sansa because she had been tainted. All code for, "we just had a war, we nearly got wiped out, we had to go home to another mess, and fight to clean that up, and if we join you the IT and the Lannister's are going to want to beat us...again". Stannis offered no advantage besides a few more sellswords. And lets say they joined him. They ousted Bolton with another King they don't want to follow, who kills his followers for disobedience, who is absolutely sending them to fight Cersie anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 On Friday, August 19, 2016 at 2:41 PM, NutBurz said: Yep. If we didn´t have the books and the series took the path that the books did, I can picture part of the audience complaining it´s "confusing, convoluted plot armor to save the Starks, in a story that tries so hard to be realist and troupe-breaking", or something along the lines of. Plot armor did end up saving the Stark however. What would be much more interesting to me is if Jon had outmaneuvered Ramsay with a smaller army. Isn't that what happened at Agincourt - Henry V outmaneuvered the French with a smaller army? However, I do think that the reaction of the Northern lords is more realistic than in the books and a nice touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinifan Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 On Saturday, August 20, 2016 at 3:56 AM, Future Null Infinity said: IMO, They removed Robb's will from the story in the show and replaced it by killing Rickon which is a bigger mary sue moment Rickon probably dies in the books as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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