Egg's Reforms Speculation

[Duranaparthur]

This seemed like the best forum to put this, since TWOIAF contains the largest amount of information on what Martin has planned for Dunk and Eggs last adventures. What types of reforms do you Egg pushing for? What kind of reforms could he have successfully started so that his grandson's Hand could make his name repealing them? Which ones would have created the greatest resistances and practically unenforced ? What lords or high lords may have actually supported (in so far as not resisting his implementation) him, and which ones pushed the most for ending them while he was still alive?

Note: this is largely a hodge podge speculation thread using our knowledge of the fictional Westeros and real world historical knowledge of the real world may point towards similar themes as Aegon V's "half-peasant" mind would have.

Here's what information we do know:

-Lords complained that their rights were being infringed upon by these reforms.

-They were at least nominally targeted towards bettering the lives of smallfolk.

-Aegon initially arranged marriages between his kids to the Baratheons, the Tullys, the Tyrells, and the Redwynes.

-The vast bulk of Aegon's reforms were undone by Tywin Lannister under Aerys II.

Right now, I can think of three possible reforms he may have tried instituting, and believe I can estimate at least three kingdoms' possible response to him. I'll only go over the possible reforms I think seem like good candidates right now; we don't have any information on what these reforms might address, but I think they're feasible.

Reform #1: Some kind of tax reform, possibly dealing with either who collects then, or how they are determined. As boring as it sounds, this is arguably the biggest possible change to the feudal order that Aegon could institute; controlling the flow of internal revenue would have earth shaking repercussions. Traditional feudal systems had dozens of lords acting as middle men in the taxation of the realm, and we're not known for being efficient: sheriffs like the ones in the Robin Hood legend collected taxes in England for centuries while allowed to line their own pockets with whatever arbitary amount they demanded from peasants and noble alike, and the French tax system helped kickstart the French Revolution thanks to such bureaucratic nightmares as allowing nobles to collect taxes based off an area's most prosperous historical era, even if it was currently desolate. Aegon could be trying to employ tax collectors who reported directly to him, allowing him to alleviate some areas that were likely to be taxed explosively by some lords, with the side benefit of giving him more control over the purse strings for both public works. And considering matters of property have a habit of causing war even today, the issue would almost certainly be contentious.

Reform #2: The gradual "emancipation", for lack of a better term, of peasants. While peasantry isn't quite equal to slavery, history has numerous records of peasants being restricted to certain holdings, and their labor was generally regarded as tied to the land owned by nobleman. Aegon could have been trying to increase the number of people in the yeoman class of free men. The possible impact this would have on the work-forces lords expected to have at their disposal could be dramatic, though probably only in a gradual sense, as most unskilled laborers would likely remain where they were... Until better oppurtunity opened up. Skilled laborers also might pack up and start seeking better lords. This could very well render whole properties as devalued in the eyes of other lords. The fact that yeoman don't quite hold a place in the accepted social hierarchy of feudal systems would have also no doubt angered some lords, as they then become wild cards in any conflicts or dispute; much like how Westeroes already experiences a healthy foot traffic of hedge knights and sell swords alongside merchants and tradesman, but on a grander scale, with even more of the despised "up jumped" rich middle class challenging lords dependent on being an accepted superior.

Reform #3: Forest Laws. This has a more unique precedent for the English, but the general idea would still apply to Westeros. Vast tracks of land in Westeros may belong to powerful lords, maybe even the Iron Throne itself, not as private capital, but as recreational preserves where peasants are forbidden from living or gathering resources. Famously, killing a deer in a Royal Forest or having the temerity to cut down trees instead of gathering the allowed lumber that fell down dead could get you executed. In a setting like Westeros, where some kingdoms could reap huge harvests in the summer while others would desperately seek to scrape every last edible into storage for brutal winters, Forest Laws seem like a natural fit for some kingdoms and not for others. Still, it was clearly cosndoered a royal right jealously guarded by centuries of monarchs in the real world, so why not in Westeros.

[Lion of the West]

1 hour ago, Duranaparthur said:

This seemed like the best forum to put this, since TWOIAF contains the largest amount of information on what Martin has planned for Dunk and Eggs last adventures. What types of reforms do you Egg pushing for? What kind of reforms could he have successfully started so that his grandson's Hand could make his name repealing them? Which ones would have created the greatest resistances and practically unenforced ? What lords or high lords may have actually supported (in so far as not resisting his implementation) him, and which ones pushed the most for ending them while he was still alive?

Note: this is largely a hodge podge speculation thread using our knowledge of the fictional Westeros and real world historical knowledge of the real world may point towards similar themes as Aegon V's "half-peasant" mind would have.

Here's what information we do know:

-Lords complained that their rights were being infringed upon by these reforms.

-They were at least nominally targeted towards bettering the lives of smallfolk.

-Aegon initially arranged marriages between his kids to the Baratheons, the Tullys, the Tyrells, and the Redwynes.

-The vast bulk of Aegon's reforms were undone by Tywin Lannister under Aerys II.

Right now, I can think of three possible reforms he may have tried instituting, and believe I can estimate at least three kingdoms' possible response to him. I'll only go over the possible reforms I think seem like good candidates right now; we don't have any information on what these reforms might address, but I think they're feasible.

Reform #1: Some kind of tax reform, possibly dealing with either who collects then, or how they are determined. As boring as it sounds, this is arguably the biggest possible change to the feudal order that Aegon could institute; controlling the flow of internal revenue would have earth shaking repercussions. Traditional feudal systems had dozens of lords acting as middle men in the taxation of the realm, and we're not known for being efficient: sheriffs like the ones in the Robin Hood legend collected taxes in England for centuries while allowed to line their own pockets with whatever arbitary amount they demanded from peasants and noble alike, and the French tax system helped kickstart the French Revolution thanks to such bureaucratic nightmares as allowing nobles to collect taxes based off an area's most prosperous historical era, even if it was currently desolate. Aegon could be trying to employ tax collectors who reported directly to him, allowing him to alleviate some areas that were likely to be taxed explosively by some lords, with the side benefit of giving him more control over the purse strings for both public works. And considering matters of property have a habit of causing war even today, the issue would almost certainly be contentious.

Reform #2: The gradual "emancipation", for lack of a better term, of peasants. While peasantry isn't quite equal to slavery, history has numerous records of peasants being restricted to certain holdings, and their labor was generally regarded as tied to the land owned by nobleman. Aegon could have been trying to increase the number of people in the yeoman class of free men. The possible impact this would have on the work-forces lords expected to have at their disposal could be dramatic, though probably only in a gradual sense, as most unskilled laborers would likely remain where they were... Until better oppurtunity opened up. Skilled laborers also might pack up and start seeking better lords. This could very well render whole properties as devalued in the eyes of other lords. The fact that yeoman don't quite hold a place in the accepted social hierarchy of feudal systems would have also no doubt angered some lords, as they then become wild cards in any conflicts or dispute; much like how Westeroes already experiences a healthy foot traffic of hedge knights and sell swords alongside merchants and tradesman, but on a grander scale, with even more of the despised "up jumped" rich middle class challenging lords dependent on being an accepted superior.

Reform #3: Forest Laws. This has a more unique precedent for the English, but the general idea would still apply to Westeros. Vast tracks of land in Westeros may belong to powerful lords, maybe even the Iron Throne itself, not as private capital, but as recreational preserves where peasants are forbidden from living or gathering resources. Famously, killing a deer in a Royal Forest or having the temerity to cut down trees instead of gathering the allowed lumber that fell down dead could get you executed. In a setting like Westeros, where some kingdoms could reap huge harvests in the summer while others would desperately seek to scrape every last edible into storage for brutal winters, Forest Laws seem like a natural fit for some kingdoms and not for others. Still, it was clearly cosndoered a royal right jealously guarded by centuries of monarchs in the real world, so why not in Westeros.

Just some corrections.

For the first part, Tywin did recall most of Aegon's reforms that were standing, yes, but also recall that it was but a trickle of reforms that Aegon was not forced himself to recall due to the immense opposition it provoked among the nobility. Thus Tywins's removal should not be overstated as shattering some egalitarian paradise created by Aegon V. Aegon V had already failed by that point to get much in the ways of reforms through.

Secondly the thing isn't that people are peasants in Westeros, and peasantry is in no way even close to slavery in itself. What you think about is serfhood and being serfs, which has many similiarites with slavery if you want to look at it that way.

[Duranaparthur]

Thanks for the update on peasantry vs serfdom; I'd gotten the two mixed up in my head.

I also didn't think that whatever reforms Egg managed to get started created any kind of egalitarian paradise; I just figured they must have been strong enough that getting them overturned was a little significant. I personally think property related ones like the start of a tax reform and a loosening of forest laws are the most likely culprits; even just beginning preliminary preparations for gradual reduction of noble land and money rights would scare most traditional nobles.

The 3 kingdoms whose Great Houses probably had a predictable reaction are the North, the Westerlands, and the Reach. The North's House Stark probably wouldn't complain that much since 1) they've just resolved a succession crisis, 2) Aegon just deployed food shipments to the North during winter, and 3) they probably know that their distance from Kingslanding lessens the speed reforms will hit them. The Westelands' House Lannister might have some complaints, but nothing significant since Tytos is incompetent enough to rely on Aegon repeatedly saving his ass. The Reach's House Tyrell, on the other hand, is probably the loudest single complainer, since Aegon tried to arrange not just a marriage to the Tyrells, but to another major House in the Redwynes, they're one of the richest kingdoms in terms of capital and resources, and since they seem to be the most competent at playing the game of diplomatic chivalry, they truly don't understand any issues that common folk might have.

[aadam13]

Good ideas and in addition he also probably sent his own judges to determine a peasants punishment instead of the lord. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

They ways the nobility abuses commoners is a major theme in the Dunk and Egg stories. In each novella we see a different way that commoners are taken advantage of, and I think these will be focal points of Egg's reformations. In The Hedge Knight, we see Dunk put on trial for striking Aerion, and in AFFC, Jaime mentions that cutting off the hand of a commoner who struck a nobility was "the old way" of dealing with it, implying that at some point this fell out of favor. In The Sworn Sword, Eustace Osgrey endangers the smallfolk under his charge to settle an old grudge, and Dunk, realizing that this is death sentence, sends them away. If I had to guess,  Egg probably drafted laws that required a judge to preside over cases like Aerion's before any punishments are dealt out, and required lords to provide their smallfolk with sufficient armor and training before sending them into combat. I think this is a continuing trend that we'll be seeing throughout the rest of the novellas.