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Do conservative people lack imagination?


NickGOT456

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5 hours ago, Jo498 said:

I do no think there is a simple correlation, neither that most older people have become conservative by experience. Often it is just habit and nostalgia. But my point was that people can be parochial and live in bubbles regardless of their age and political stance and there is a higher probability for somewhat older people to have more experience with social and technological change and most of them also have changed their political attitudes. Again, not alway because of rational decisions but hopefully sometimes.

And I am not sure if a big part of conservatism is about opposing change per se. Most of today's conservatives have no problem with most technological changes. A Burkean conservative will be against some political and social changes but his main point seems to be caution with too rapid changes or especially changing what works pretty good for something that might disastrously fail. Only staunch traditionalists think that there is an objectively better way of organizing society (e.g. Monarchy, strong church, trad gender roles and families etc.) but this way has been mostly lost anyway and they don't really have political power nowadays.

I agree that there is probably very little systematic correlation with entertainment; we all know the notorious essay where Moore claimed Tolkien (and presumably many of his fans) craved a rural, feudal society. There would be a lot to like for reactionaries about a lot of fantasy.

There are some more interesting points. You use the word parochial - do you consider the concept of conservatism intrinsically tied to religious tradition? I was not really thinking from a religious angle at all, only the concept of being more staid, or opposed to change.

Personally, I very much like the saying - I'm not opposed to change, if it is in the right direction. Unfortunately, I don't see much in the right direction anymore - I see more change geared towards greed and individualism than social stability and consider myself conservative in that sense only, not in the religious or technological. The wife, who I mentioned earlier, is technologically conservative, even though more socially progressive. It seems conservatism isn't really an encompassing thing, when you start looking at how individuals think - rather it seems possible that progressives are the more mindless, all encompassing group, jumping on any cause they can find, without having even decided what is important to them yet :D

Another thing this conversation leads me to consider is that perhaps, as much as age, conservatism can be linked to responsibility and accountability - which does often correlate with people getting older. Things like parenthood, home ownership, managerial status in the workplace might make a person more conservative by making them not only more established in a society but established in whatever values they have maintained to get there.

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there can primitivist socialism, sure, which could be considered some kind of conservative.  it's supergross, though, and not marxist, which is generally optimistic, progressive, industrialist, techno-fetishist almost.  

frankfurt marxists are pessimists, normally, at least as regards revolutions and transitions to the future--we had our window and it was missed, &c.  this doesn't make them 'conservative,' as they retain the other common items, supra.

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It seems conservative has become a dirtier word than it is.

I saw a similar change with the term conspiracy theory in the early 2000s. In the 90s, all a conspiracy theory was was what it sounded like - a theory about a conspiracy. You could go to the cops and say, 'I recon those 4 blokes are conspiring to murder this other bloke' - bam, conspiracy theory. Nothing bad, could even start a police enquiry - then somehow the term became a dirty word, a way to belittle or demonise.

I think the same thing happened to conservative somehow.

As mentioned, most people hold some conservative and some progressive values - they are neither fully one or the other. The kind of bulk labelling of ideology is more dangerous, IMO, than people having different ideology.

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8 minutes ago, ummester said:

 

As mentioned, most people hold some conservative and some progressive values - they are neither fully one or the other. The kind of bulk labelling of ideology is more dangerous, IMO, than people having different ideology.

That's a rather banal observation, since hardly anybody is "purely" one thing or another. The Platonic Ideal isn't a thing of common occurrence. Labels and identifications that cover large groups of people are by definition covering up minor differences between members who fall under those labels, and yet, the labels are no less useful for the right applications. Our concept of the world will disintegrate into billions of fractured information if we don't organize with labels and categories.

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'conspiracy' is one of the most charged crimes in the US federal system, up there with money laundering.  all it is for the criminal law is an agreement to commit a crime, with some 'substantial step' taken toward the execution of the offense by one of the members.  that's pedestrian and occurs all the time.

what you mean is david icke styled 'conspiracy theory,' wherein the following elements are found:

a ) world historical scope, extending backward to babylonia and existing throughout the ages in unbroken succession in all known jurisdictions;

b ) extremely localized totalitarian interest, down to the contents of each citizen's respective medicine cabinet and conduct behind closed doors; 

c ) controlled by transdimensional telepathic reptilians who use the carefully constructed and seemingly inexorable world historical conspiracy to indulge in their trifling predilections for hemophagy, unlawful sex acts, and occult ritualism, inter alia; and

d ) due to extreme arrogance or ludic nihilism, the aliens always leave clues of the existence of the world historical conspiracy laying around in plain sight (corporate logos, public monuments, art installations, currency obverse designs, &c.), all there for the lone and clever but always already disbelieved interlocutor to uncover.

 

it's rather like an RSB novel, i suppose.  but no one believes that RSB novels are true. gods, i hope no one believes RSB novels are true.

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12 minutes ago, TerraPrime said:

That's a rather banal observation, since hardly anybody is "purely" one thing or another. The Platonic Ideal isn't a thing of common occurrence. Labels and identifications that cover large groups of people are by definition covering up minor differences between members who fall under those labels, and yet, the labels are no less useful for the right applications. Our concept of the world will disintegrate into billions of fractured information if we don't organize with labels and categories.

And yet the progressive stands against the labelling of people based on physical characteristics?

sologdin,

I come from a country where 67% of people doubt the official 911 story, less than 50% now believe in a Judaeo Christian deity and (hopefully) less than 10% believe in lizard men :D I don't think we've had an actual survey on the lizard men though.

But, for arguments sake, out of those 3 things, many people believe at least 1.

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On August 23, 2016 at 11:33 AM, sologdin said:

'conspiracy' is one of the most charged crimes in the US federal system, up there with money laundering.  all it is for the criminal law is an agreement to commit a crime, with some 'substantial step' taken toward the execution of the offense by one of the members.  that's pedestrian and occurs all the time.

what you mean is david icke styled 'conspiracy theory,' wherein the following elements are found:

a ) world historical scope, extending backward to babylonia and existing throughout the ages in unbroken succession in all known jurisdictions;

b ) extremely localized totalitarian interest, down to the contents of each citizen's respective medicine cabinet and conduct behind closed doors; 

c ) controlled by transdimensional telepathic reptilians who use the carefully constructed and seemingly inexorable world historical conspiracy to indulge in their trifling predilections for hemophagy, unlawful sex acts, and occult ritualism, inter alia; and

d ) due to extreme arrogance or ludic nihilism, the aliens always leave clues of the existence of the world historical conspiracy laying around in plain sight (corporate logos, public monuments, art installations, currency obverse designs, &c.), all there for the lone and clever but always already disbelieved interlocutor to uncover.

 

it's rather like an RSB novel, i suppose.  but no one believes that RSB novels are true. gods, i hope no one believes RSB novels are true.

I don't just believe, I believe with an indominatable conviction. He makes me love!

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