Bran. The darkness. And a return to thoughts on that Jon/Ghost/Bran/Weirwood dream from ACOK.

[Macgregor of the North]

13 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

there is a diference between having an opportunity vs having time traveling super powers. Arya had the former, Bran did not havethe latter. 

Ah but of course there is a difference, thanks for clearing that up, even though the discussion never called for you to do so. 

If you are reading the thread nobody has been claiming Bran had the latter either. Only that we believe in the possibility that through the trees Bran has shown to, and will grow to be able to, send subtle word messages along through the trees and the wind that people will actually be able to comprehend in time as the trees as his conduit do not view time like man, therefore time means nothing really I suppose. 

And the reason I am mentioning Arya is that I am pointing out a similarity between the Stark kids in the sense that we the reader are teased with the idea that there may even be a way that they could influence the outcome of the whole story in an unfair way, rendering the story quite boring in a way, which you stated yourself. 

But of course GRRM wrote it in a way for Arya that never went down that route, because thankfully he also sees the mistake that would have been in giving one Stark that capability and making the story one sided and boring. 

Then we have Bran and his powers. Now the tease is there and the possibility too(or else why would you even take part in the discussion) that GRRM could write it in that Bran could reach through the trees through time to manipulate events to suit his family and himself. 

Now we know that doesn't happen obviously because the history is there and we have also read most of it on page. But, I believe along with others that there will be a reveal that Bran has, can, and will been/be able to send subtle messages through the trees to certain people that will alter their path slightly. If you don't believe it thats fine, lets all keep reading. 

I hope at least you finally understand the comparison I was making and don't feel the need to tell me Arya can't time travel, or Bran can't time travel. I know Bran can't time travel. This is not the mummers version we are watching. It is the books. 

[Dorian Martell]

On 9/1/2016 at 11:26 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

If you are reading the thread nobody has been claiming Bran had the latter either. Only that we believe in the possibility that through the trees Bran has shown to, and will grow to be able to, send subtle word messages along through the trees and the wind that people will actually be able to comprehend in time as the trees as his conduit do not view time like man, therefore time means nothing really I suppose. 

And that would be time travel. Influencing the already written past and changing it. 

On 9/1/2016 at 11:26 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

And the reason I am mentioning Arya is that I am pointing out a similarity between the Stark kids in the sense that we the reader are teased with the idea that there may even be a way that they could influence the outcome of the whole story in an unfair way, rendering the story quite boring in a way, which you stated yourself. 

But of course GRRM wrote it in a way for Arya that never went down that route, because thankfully he also sees the mistake that would have been in giving one Stark that capability and making the story one sided and boring. 

And that is the reason why Bran can never influence or change the past. Single timeline or no.

On 9/1/2016 at 11:26 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

Then we have Bran and his powers. Now the tease is there and the possibility too(or else why would you even take part in the discussion) that GRRM could write it in that Bran could reach through the trees through time to manipulate events to suit his family and himself. 

The point of all of this is to show limitations. Those limitations will add drama to the story later on and show that while bran will be come incredibly powerful he won't be all powerful. His limitations will add complexity to his character and make what he can do more important. 

On 9/1/2016 at 11:26 PM, Macgregor of the North said:

Now we know that doesn't happen obviously because the history is there and we have also read most of it on page. But, I believe along with others that there will be a reveal that Bran has, can, and will been/be able to send subtle messages through the trees to certain people that will alter their path slightly. If you don't believe it thats fine, lets all keep reading. 

I hope at least you finally understand the comparison I was making and don't feel the need to tell me Arya can't time travel, or Bran can't time travel. I know Bran can't time travel. This is not the mummers version we are watching. It is the books. 

I have understood the comparison the whole time, I just don't believe it.  it is stated in no uncertain terms by the last greenseer that what you suggest is impossible. That is that. 

[Macgregor of the North]

On 3 September 2016 at 10:56 PM, Dorian Martell said:

And that would be time travel. Influencing the already written past and changing it. 

And that is the reason why Bran can never influence or change the past. Single timeline or no.

The point of all of this is to show limitations. Those limitations will add drama to the story later on and show that while bran will be come incredibly powerful he won't be all powerful. His limitations will add complexity to his character and make what he can do more important. 

I have understood the comparison the whole time, I just don't believe it.  it is stated in no uncertain terms by the last greenseer that what you suggest is impossible. That is that. 

Been busy on other threads but remembered I hadnt replied to this. 

I was curious. When Bran whispers Winterfell to Ned as he's cleaning his blade and he turns and asks who's there, do you think Ned has done that in the already written past you are talking about or did that never happen?

 

[Dorian Martell]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Been busy on other threads but remembered I hadnt replied to this. 

I was curious. When Bran whispers Winterfell to Ned as he's cleaning his blade and he turns and asks who's there, do you think Ned has done that in the already written past you are talking about or did that never happen?

 

Ned heard a breeze. That is all. Wether it was bran's voice causing it does not matter as it was only a breeze.  

[Macgregor of the North]

35 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Ned heard a breeze. That is all. Wether it was bran's voice causing it does not matter as it was only a breeze.  

That's a dreadful response DM. I never asked your interpretation on what he hears, which is Infact a whisper carried along by the wind I'll add. I asked you whether Ned always turned and asked who was there or if he never did until Bran made him.

[Dorian Martell]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

That's a dreadful response DM. I never asked your interpretation on what he hears, which is Infact a whisper carried along by the wind I'll add. I asked you whether Ned always turned and asked who was there or if he never did until Bran made him.

He always turned to the wind. Bran didn't whisper. He called out to his dad. All ned heard was leaves rustling in the wind. No voice, no whisper, just a noise that he responded to. 
Bloodraven explains how he had tried for ears to communicate with someone in the past via the weirwood tree and he has never been successful. The only thing he has seen was a person reacting to the wind in the unchangable past 

[Clegane'sPup]

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I asked you whether Ned always turned and asked who was there or if he never did until Bran made him.

Which one are you referring to?

[Clegane'sPup]

As an after thought I thought that should expound upon the above.

DwD c.34 Bran has two instances of seeing Eddard through the tree.

The first one was after eating the seed paste. “Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree.

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered. His father looked up. “Who’s there?” he asked turning…

 

I’ve been told that … means there is more to be revealed. I’m gonna surmise that it means someone encroached upon Eddard’s alone time.

 

The second time.

 

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.

Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood's? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?

What did BR say:

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

Iffin Bran can move though the space time universe of Westeros bs either Jojen, BR or Martin is lying. Which one is it?

People do not open this reveal if you don’t want to read. You been warned.

Spoiler

It is my opinion the reason the show did what they did is because Hodor can no longer carry Bran on his back in a basket and they needed to dispose of Hodor and get Bran outta the cave.

 

[ravenous reader]

8 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

He always turned to the wind. Bran didn't whisper. He called out to his dad. All ned heard was leaves rustling in the wind. No voice, no whisper, just a noise that he responded to. 
Bloodraven explains how he had tried for ears to communicate with someone in the past via the weirwood tree and he has never been successful. The only thing he has seen was a person reacting to the wind in the unchangable past 

Hi DM.  Thought we would meet again..!  I think Bran will break the mould; it'll be different for him -- and that will be the shocking thing.

[Dorian Martell]

16 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Hi DM.  Thought we would meet again..!  I think Bran will break the mould; it'll be different for him -- and that will be the shocking thing.

It's not like this forum was large enough for the two of us to never cross paths......
Is there any reason why you think bran will do something his teacher explicitly says is impossible, that no other greenseer had ever done before?

 

[ravenous reader]

11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

It's not like this forum was large enough for the two of us to never cross paths......
Is there any reason why you think bran will do something his teacher explicitly says is impossible, that no other greenseer had ever done before?

He he he.  A worthy adversary is the best we can hope for in this life .  

To the second part of your question, I can only offer my inkling that GRRM is a devious devil, who is simultaneously a vulnerable child who dreamed of capturing the world -- and did (or you and I would not be here in virtual space-time 'communicating').  In all seriousness, I used to think GRRM was a cocky individual who identified with Tyrion's antisocial tendencies and fantasized about Daenerys, the blonde cheerleader girl who paid him no heed in high school, a deeply wounding experience demanding fantastical redress.  The more I read, think, and discuss, however, the more I think he is like Bran -- the artist, the storyteller, the child in all of us -- and the more I empathize with him, and like him:

Quote

Was your relationship with your parents close? 
My father was a distant figure. I don't think that he ever understood me, and I don't know that I ever understood him. We didn't use the term then, but you could probably say he was a functioning alcoholic. I saw him every day, but we hardly talked. The only thing that we really bonded over was sports.

Did you get out of Bayonne much before college? 
We never had a car. My father always said that drinking and driving was very bad, and he was not going to give up drinking [laughs]. My world was a very small world. For many years I stared out of our living-room window at the lights of Staten Island. To me, those lights of Staten Island were like Shangri-La, and Singapore, and Shanghai, or whatever. I read books, and I dreamed of Mars, and the planets in those books, and of the Hyborian Age of Robert E. Howard's Conan books, and later of Middle-earth – all these colorful places. I would dream of those places just as I dreamed of Staten Island, and Shanghai.

He wants the world -- just in a different way to Littlefinger.

If you don't understand that GRRM is at heart a romantic, then you don't understand him.

But I think you do -- or you wouldn't still be here, engaging with me now.

 

[Dorian Martell]

7 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

What did BR say:
"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

Iffin Bran can move though the space time universe of Westeros bs either Jojen, BR or Martin is lying. Which one is it?

People do not open this reveal if you don’t want to read. You been warned.

  Reveal hidden contents

It is my opinion the reason the show did what they did is because Hodor can no longer carry Bran on his back in a basket and they needed to dispose of Hodor and get Bran outta the cave.

 

 

Time travel is a cheap cop out. Wether in the flesh or a message sent, if it is possible then the whole story can be upended when treebran explains to his dad the danger of the others, Ned never goes south. Jon never joins the watch. Arya and Sansa never split up. Robb never goes to war and the watch is strengthened to figh the invasion. An envoy is sent to treat with mance and the wildlings move through the wall peacefully. Winterfell never burns ect.  I thing bran will use the weirnet to see how the others were defeated the last time 
 

[Dorian Martell]

23 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

He he he.  A worthy adversary is the best we can hope for in this life .  

To the second part of your question, I can only offer my inkling that GRRM is a devious devil, who is simultaneously a vulnerable child who dreamed of capturing the world -- and did (or you and I would not be here in virtual space-time 'communicating').  In all seriousness, I used to think GRRM was a cocky individual who identified with Tyrion's antisocial tendencies and fantasized about Daenerys, the blonde cheerleader girl who paid him no heed in high school, a deeply wounding experience demanding fantastical redress.  The more I read, think, and discuss, however, the more I think he is like Bran -- the artist, the storyteller, the child in all of us -- and the more I empathize with him, and like him:

He wants the world -- just in a different way to Littlefinger.

If you don't understand that GRRM is at heart a romantic, then you don't understand him.

But I think you do -- or you wouldn't still be here, engaging with me now.

 

So bran doing something specifically impossible in the novels is just your feeling/imagination. That's cool. I do not have the same feeling, and I am backed up by the text 

[ravenous reader]

5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

just your feeling/imagination

Sure.  Don't kid yourself -- we're not constructing 'scientific theories' over here.  This is not 'science' and a far cry from 'theory.'

I think Bran will attempt to intervene, and the consequences will be tragic.  I also think he will have to go up against someone in his own family -- probably Jon -- and no matter what he does to put it right, he will fall short.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you should consult the resident astrologer LmL for 'The Answer To All.'

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Not this again....

Bran cannot change the past....

[ravenous reader]

4 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Bran cannot change the past....

We have no 'evidence' either way.  Period.  Scientific experiment is predicated upon the premise of being capable of disproving, not proving, a hypothesis.  Can we do that?  No.  We are not doing 'science' over here.  This is a work of fantasy, and GRRM can change the rules, without complying with the laws of nature.  

[Little Scribe of Naath]

4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

We have no 'evidence' either way.  Period.  Scientific experiment is predicated upon the premise of being capable of disproving, not proving, a hypothesis.  Can we do that?  No.  We are not doing 'science' over here.  This is a work of fantasy, and GRRM can change the rules, without complying with the laws of nature.  

If my statement is wrong, that would introduce alternate universes, which don't appear to exist as of now in the books.

[ravenous reader]

Just now, Little Scribe of Naath said:

If my statement is wrong, that would introduce alternate universes, which don't appear to exist as of now in the books.

I think you misunderstood me.  I believe in the causal loop time paradox, as you explained it previously, with your diagram.  No alternate universes.  GRRM has a tragic bent, and alternate universes allow one 'a loophole,' which would be too cheesy for him. see this article

[Dorian Martell]

20 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Sure.  Don't kid yourself -- we're not constructing 'scientific theories' over here.  This is not 'science' and a far cry from 'theory.'

I think Bran will attempt to intervene, and the consequences will be tragic.  I also think he will have to go up against someone in his own family -- probably Jon -- and no matter what he does to put it right, he will fall short.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you should consult the resident astrologer LmL for 'The Answer To All.'

I will rub LmL's head for the answer. If that doesn't work I can alweays go back to reading entrails 

15 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

We have no 'evidence' either way.  Period. 

Except for the statement by the emminent master of weirnet and tree visions, The three eyed bloodraven himself 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

4 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I think you misunderstood me.  I believe in the causal loop time paradox, as you explained it previously, with your diagram.  No alternate universes.  GRRM has a tragic bent, and alternate universes allow one 'a loophole,' which would be too cheesy for him. see this article

Causal time travel necessarily means that it's a loop; things always happened the way they did --> ergo, Bran cannot change the past.

Yeah, I've read that  

Guess who else compared time to a river, btw ?

Quote

I do believe in time travel. Time travel to the future. Time flows like a river and it seems as if each of us is carried relentlessly along by time's current. But time is like a river in another way. It flows at different speeds in different places and that is the key to travelling into the future. This idea was first proposed by Albert Einstein over 100 years ago."

Stephen Hawking