Bran. The darkness. And a return to thoughts on that Jon/Ghost/Bran/Weirwood dream from ACOK.

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Guess who else compared time to a river, btw ?

Quote

I do believe in time travel. Time travel to the future. Time flows like a river and it seems as if each of us is carried relentlessly along by time's current. But time is like a river in another way. It flows at different speeds in different places and that is the key to travelling into the future. This idea was first proposed by Albert Einstein over 100 years ago."

Stephen Hawking

 

Wow, that's beautiful.  Enigmatic, like poetry!  Does he not believe time travel in the opposite direction (namely to the past) is possible, then?  And, exactly how does he conceive this 'flow differential' of the 'river of time' would effectuate time travel to the future?

I think we've all experienced for ourselves, though, the truth of his words that time 'flows at different speeds in different places.'

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Just now, ravenous reader said:

Wow, that's beautiful.  Enigmatic, like poetry!  Does he not believe time travel in the opposite direction (namely to the past) is possible, then?  And, exactly how does he conceive this 'flow differential' of the 'river of time' would effectuate time travel to the future?

I think we've all experienced for ourselves, though, the truth of his words that time 'flows at different speeds in different places.'

Physics today states that time travel to the past is impossible. I think Einstein had the view that if we have to travel to the past, we have to surpass the speed of light.

Well, one can go and gaze at the stars, we'd be seeing them as they were thousands of years ago

I just posted the quote because it proves our man GRRM is knowledgeable (and interested) enough in science (and science fiction) that he straight took it from Stephen Hawking  He absolutely does not write in a vacuum.

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

He always turned to the wind. Bran didn't whisper. He called out to his dad. All ned heard was leaves rustling in the wind. No voice, no whisper, just a noise that he responded to. 
Bloodraven explains how he had tried for ears to communicate with someone in the past via the weirwood tree and he has never been successful. The only thing he has seen was a person reacting to the wind in the unchangable past 

Wrong DM. Tell me where it states that Bran called out? Tell me where it states Ned heard the wind rustling the leaves, tell me where it states anything other than Bran whispering, and it affecting his fathers actions in a completely different timeframe. I agree the past is unchangable, but is it possible Bran has always whispered Winterfell at that point in 'time' and Ned has always wondered who it was who said it. Here's your quote.

"Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below.

Then all at once he was back home again. 

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning … 

… and Bran, frightened, pulled away. His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child. A torch flared to life before him."

[Macgregor of the North]

11 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Which one are you referring to?

I made it clear CP it was the one where Ned was cleaning Ice.

[Dorian Martell]

19 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Wrong DM. Tell me where it states that Bran called out? Tell me where it states Ned heard the wind rustling the leaves, tell me where it states anything other than Bran whispering, and it affecting his fathers actions in a completely different timeframe. I agree the past is unchangable, but is it possible Bran has always whispered Winterfell at that point in 'time' and Ned has always wondered who it was who said it. Here's your quote.

"Bran closed his eyes and slipped free of his skin. Into the roots, he thought. Into the weirwood. Become the tree. For an instant he could see the cavern in its black mantle, could hear the river rushing by below.

Then all at once he was back home again. 

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning … 

… and Bran, frightened, pulled away. His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child. A torch flared to life before him."

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

This. Bran cannot influence the past. Period. As stated by the last greenseer. you can hope all hopes until the series is ended, but it won't make it true. If this changes, feel free to gloat, but as of now, no time travel, no messages no changing the past 

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

"He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it."

This. Bran cannot influence the past. Period. As stated by the last greenseer. you can hope all hopes until the series is ended, but it won't make it true. If this changes, feel free to gloat, but as of now, no time travel, no messages no changing the past 

Yes DM we all know by now that you take this passage from BR as your go to against everybody's statements in this thread. We get it. 

This is from BR afterwards, brushing off Brans assumption as something he thinks as completely impossible because HE believes it, he was not part of the vision and never even knew what Bran was seeing, Bran had to tell him what happened. To which he simply says oh it was a rustling of the leaves etc etc, when it is absolutely clear whichever way you look at it that if Bran had not whispered Winterfell his father would not have asked who was there.

Im not saying Bran will go back and warn his father and change the whole story blah blan blah, nobody is saying Bran will time travel back and change everything lol, but you can not prove whatsoever with anything you say that Ned always turned just because he only heard leaves or the wind with no Bran whisper to instigate it, he hears what he hears and turns because Bran whispers. Period. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

@Dorian Martell

Have you ever considered the idea that BR is actively trying to dissuade Bran from partaking in this kind of activity as it will distract him from the task that BR actually has for him? I'm not saying I totally subscribe to this, Just a thought. 

[Dorian Martell]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Yes DM we all know by now that you take this passage from BR as your go to against everybody's statements in this thread. We get it. 

This is from BR afterwards, brushing off Brans assumption as something he thinks as completely impossible because HE believes it, he was not part of the vision and never even knew what Bran was seeing, Bran had to tell him what happened. To which he simply says oh it was a rustling of the leaves etc etc, when it is absolutely clear whichever way you look at it that if Bran had not whispered Winterfell his father would not have asked who was there.

Im not saying Bran will go back and warn his father and change the whole story blah blan blah, nobody is saying Bran will time travel back and change everything lol, but you can not prove whatsoever with anything you say that Ned always turned just because he only heard leaves or the wind with no Bran whisper to instigate it, he hears what he hears and turns because Bran whispers. Period. 

 

I can and did. You won't admit to it, and that's OK, but it still does not change anything that I have said. Really, if you admit that bran will not time travel or influence the past or was not even able to speak to Ned, what is the point of saying he did. Ned didn't hear Bran. Period. 
Remember, you don't need to prove a negative as it did not happen 

[Dorian Martell]

3 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Dorian Martell

Have you ever considered the idea that BR is actively trying to dissuade Bran from partaking in this kind of activity as it will distract him from the task that BR actually has for him? I'm not saying I totally subscribe to this, Just a thought. 

No. Simply put, being able to communicate with the past would be a more than invaluable tool to fight the impending battle. Why would BR try to disuade bran from using the ultimate communication tool available. Also, BR will die eventually allowing Bran to do whatever he wants so disuading is moot 

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

I can and did. You won't admit to it, and that's OK, but it still does not change anything that I have said. Really, if you admit that bran will not time travel or influence the past or was not even able to speak to Ned, what is the point of saying he did. Ned didn't hear Bran. Period. 
Remember, you don't need to prove a negative as it did not happen 

Hahaha, the hell you did DM. My quoting went weird so my comment is appearing here. 

How on earth could you possibly be of the idea you proved that? I must admit DM, I look forward to our conversations as Winds and Dream are in circulation  Yes I do. 

[Dorian Martell]

52 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

How on earth could you possibly be of the idea you proved that?

mostly with a quote from a character in the books who has specific knowledge of the subject we are discussing.  But hey, what does the last greenseer know? living in a tree, being 125+ years old and having done all the things the 10 year old boy is trying when he just started merging with a tree.  You don't have to take the text from the book as gospel, but then, why read the book? I suppose you can say that Robb is still alive, or that Arya never killed anyone, or that Jon snow never joined the watch. Ignoring text in the novel can lead to interesting places. Tyrion never shot his dad. Jamie never screwed his sister. Hell, Bob never killed Rhaegar.  So what if it is text in the novel? That doesn't mean or prove anything really.........

[Macgregor of the North]

10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

mostly with a quote from a character in the books who has specific knowledge of the subject we are discussing.  But hey, what does the last greenseer know? living in a tree, being 125+ years old and having done all the things the 10 year old boy is trying when he just started merging with a tree.  You don't have to take the text from the book as gospel, but then, why read the book? I suppose you can say that Robb is still alive, or that Arya never killed anyone, or that Jon snow never joined the watch. Ignoring text in the novel can lead to interesting places. Tyrion never shot his dad. Jamie never screwed his sister. Hell, Bob never killed Rhaegar.  So what if it is text in the novel? That doesne't mean or prove anything really.........

Just like Bran whispering and making his dad turn is written in the novel yes??

[Dorian Martell]

9 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Just like Bran whispering and making his dad turn is written in the novel yes??

No, as shown by the quote you are so tired of seeing. Bran not actually being able to communicate with his dad is part of the sadness of his character 

[Macgregor of the North]

8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

No, as shown by the quote you are so tired of seeing. Bran not actually being able to communicate with his dad is part of the sadness of his character 

Since you were talking about text in the novel I thought I'd point that one out since it seems you missed it, and Brans whisper is what makes Ned turn as shown clearly, which is what we are debating yes?. 

[Darkstream]

41 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

mostly with a quote from a character in the books who has specific knowledge of the subject we are discussing.  But hey, what does the last greenseer know? living in a tree, being 125+ years old and having done all the things the 10 year old boy is trying when he just started merging with a tree.  You don't have to take the text from the book as gospel, but then, why read the book? I suppose you can say that Robb is still alive, or that Arya never killed anyone, or that Jon snow never joined the watch. Ignoring text in the novel can lead to interesting places. Tyrion never shot his dad. Jamie never screwed his sister. Hell, Bob never killed Rhaegar.  So what if it is text in the novel? That doesn't mean or prove anything really.........

Hell, I suppose you can say that Wylla and Ned are Jon's parents, and I guess the Hound did kiss Sansa as well. It's all there in the text, direct quotes from the characters who have specific knowledge of the subject.

[Dorian Martell]

56 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Hell, I suppose you can say that Wylla and Ned are Jon's parents, and I guess the Hound did kiss Sansa as well. It's all there in the text, direct quotes from the characters who have specific knowledge of the subject.

Wylla could be, as well as the sisterton fisherman's daughter. Ned has always been his dad, the one who named him, and raised him as a brother to Robb, even if he may not be his biological father. 

[Macgregor of the North]

42 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Wylla could be, as well as the sisterton fisherman's daughter. Ned has always been his dad, the one who named him, and raised him as a brother to Robb, even if he may not be his biological father. 

Why are you taking my thread down this silly road DM?. You have failed to answer my question i posed to you earlier and now you are just being a tad silly if im honest. Yes, if somebody raises a child they could be classed as 'Dad' but they will never be that childs father, this applies in this story and in real life. Drop this subject as its nothing to do with the OP.

If you would like to return to the OP then could you please state whether you think Ned would have turned and asked who was there if Bran had not whispered Winterfell?.

[Darkstream]

51 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Wylla could be, as well as the sisterton fisherman's daughter. Ned has always been his dad, the one who named him, and raised him as a brother to Robb, even if he may not be his biological father. 

Well, there's no "could be" about it. Jon's biological parents are confirmed within the text to be Ned and Wylla, there's really no other possibility. The quote about the fisherman's daughter can be dismissed as it was not from a character who has specific knowledge of the subject.

[Dorian Martell]

6 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Why are you taking my thread down this silly road DM?. You have failed to answer my question i posed to you earlier and now you are just being a tad silly if im honest. Yes, if somebody raises a child they could be classed as 'Dad' but they will never be that childs father, this applies in this story and in real life. Drop this subject as its nothing to do with the OP.

If you would like to return to the OP then could you please state whether you think Ned would have turned and asked who was there if Bran had not whispered Winterfell?.

I am taking this down the path you have set. And I am not sure if you know any adopted people, but the man that raised them would be their Father/Dad. Adopted folks buy gifts for the man that raised them on father's day.
Now, I already answered that but I will give you another go.  Yes, Ned did turn. No, bran can not communicate with the past. He cannot send a message to influence the past. Time goes one way and the weirnet only lets a greenseer look into the past, not influence of change it. That was the point of the OP and what I have been saying for many pages 

[Dorian Martell]

6 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Well, there's no "could be" about it. Jon's biological parents are confirmed within the text to be Ned and Wylla, there's really no other possibility. The quote about the fisherman's daughter can be dismissed as it was not from a character who has specific knowledge of the subject.

No, they are not confirmed in the text. The only person who knows is Ned  and he is dead. He never confirmed anything with Bob. He just lets Bob talk.