Bran. The darkness. And a return to thoughts on that Jon/Ghost/Bran/Weirwood dream from ACOK.

[Macgregor of the North]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell said:

I am taking this down the path you have set. And I am not sure if you know any adopted people, but the man that raised them would be their Father/Dad. Adopted folks buy gifts for the man that raised them on father's day.
Now, I already answered that but I will give you another go.  Yes, Ned did turn. No, bran can not communicate with the past. He cannot send a message to influence the past. Time goes one way and the weirnet only lets a greenseer look into the past, not influence of change it. That was the point of the OP and what I have been saying for many pages 

The path of whether 'dads' are actually the people who 'fathered' the child, no I think you set this path DM and you know it. 

A man can adopt a fatherly role for a boy or girl sure, they may even get the title and get Father's Day cards and even if that child never sees their biological father in its life, nothing will ever change the fact that somebody out there is actually their father, and not this person who has taken on the role. My best friend was adopted, and he calls his old man dad, but he understands that somebody else on this planet is his father.

DM, you keep dancing round the fact that Bran causes Ned to ask who is there. Answer that question straight up with no nonsense- Does Brans 'Winterfell' whisper cause Ned to turn and ask who is there or not. Simple question, do not rabble on about real fathers anymore, just answer that question. I know the answer, I wanna hear you say it though.

[Darkstream]

10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

No, they are not confirmed in the text. The only person who knows is Ned  and he is dead. He never confirmed anything with Bob. He just lets Bob talk. 

Wrong.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

..."You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

[Dorian Martell]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The path of whether 'dads' are actually the people who 'fathered' the child, no I think you set this path DM and you know it. 

A man can adopt a fatherly role for a boy or girl sure, they may even get the title and get Father's Day cards and even if that child never sees their biological father in its life, nothing will ever change the fact that somebody out there is actually their father, and not this person who has taken on the role. My best friend was adopted, and he calls his old man dad, but he understands that somebody else on this planet is his father.

DM, you keep dancing round the fact that Bran causes Ned to ask who is there. Answer that question straight up with no nonsense- Does Brans 'Winterfell' whisper cause Ned to turn and ask who is there or not. Simple question, do not rabble on about real fathers anymore, just answer that question. I know the answer, I wanna hear you say it though.

Since you cannot seem to read the text you quoted in your most recent reply, I will post it again. 

12 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Yes, Ned did turn. No, bran can not communicate with the past. He cannot send a message to influence the past.

Secondly, I doubt your best friend is adopted. If he really was you would know his father was the man who raised him, taught him about life, was there for him when he fell or succeeded. You know, fatherly things. Of course there had to be a man that gives adopted people 23 of their chromosomes. But their father is the man who raised them. If this bothers you so much, why did you bring up Jon Snow's parentage?  


"

 

[Dorian Martell]

6 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Wrong.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

..."You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

No, Bob says Wylla is Jon's mom. Ned Just names her and then refuses to speak of her again.  Ned never says she is Jon's bio mom. He does not deny it either...........

[Macgregor of the North]

2 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Since you cannot seem to read the text you quoted in your most recent reply, I will post it again. 

Secondly, I doubt your best friend is adopted. If he really was you would know his father was the man who raised him, taught him about life, was there for him when he fell or succeeded. You know, fatherly things. Of course there had to be a man that gives adopted people 23 of their chromosomes. But their father is the man who raised them. If this bothers you so much, why did you bring up Jon Snow's parentage?  


"

 

First up, Darkstream brought it up lol, at least follow the thread if you wanna talk in it DM, u just started rambling on about how people who raise kids are the real fathers etc so I stepped in and I'm like, well, their not actually but yes there are people who play great fatherly roles for children. And it's great they do as children need a male and female influence in life.

Second up, don't doubt nowt about people you don't know sunshine, your getting way to cocky on here for my liking. If you wanna take it back to topic, let's do so, but zip it about people's parental situation you have never met ok. We clear on that one?

Back to Bran, so his whisper of the word Winterfell is what makes Ned turn and ask who is there yes?

[Darkstream]

1 minute ago, Dorian Martell said:

No, Bob says Wylla is Jon's mom. Ned Just names her and then refuses to speak of her again.  Ned never says she is Jon's bio mom. He does not deny it either...........

Dude, read the quote. Robert ask ned who is the mother of his[Ned's] bastard and he says "Wylla".

Seriously, is it that difficult for you to admit when you're wrong? Sad really.

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

No, Bob says Wylla is Jon's mom. Ned Just names her and then refuses to speak of her again.  Ned never says she is Jon's bio mom. He does not deny it either...........

Lol. I'm beginning to wonder if you have ever held your hands up and conceded anything in your whole existence. Darkstream had you there, take it on the chin and man up. Your stubbornness on this forum is pretty incredible, it's a shame as you seem an intelligent enough fellow who could make discussions fun if they didn't have to be right all the time.

[Macgregor of the North]

14 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

No, Bob says Wylla is Jon's mom.

When?

[Dorian Martell]

37 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

First up, Darkstream brought it up lol, at least follow the thread if you wanna talk in it DM, u just started rambling on about how people who raise kids are the real fathers etc so I stepped in and I'm like, well, their not actually but yes there are people who play great fatherly roles for children. And it's great they do as children need a male and female influence in life.

Second up, don't doubt nowt about people you don't know sunshine, your getting way to cocky on here for my liking. If you wanna take it back to topic, let's do so, but zip it about people's parental situation you have never met ok. We clear on that one?

Back to Bran, so his whisper of the word Winterfell is what makes Ned turn and ask who is there yes?

First up, you replied to my post on Jon's parentage. Since it didn't seem to bother you when darkstream brought it up, it shouldn't bother you that I replied to it.  What you said about adoptive fathers is dead wrong though, and I felt the need to reply, but since you don't want to speak about it anymore This will be the last of it

Second up, I don't need to know you. I have what you have written. Cocky or no, I am merely replying. Again, if you don't like it, there is no need to reply. So Zip it if you so desire. That is your choice. Are we clear on that one? 

Back to Bran, I am not sure what part of "Cannot influence or communicate with the past" is confusing? you keep asking me to repeat  the answer I have given. So there, I did it again. 

35 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Dude, read the quote. Robert ask ned who is the mother of his[Ned's] bastard and he says "Wylla".

Seriously, is it that difficult for you to admit when you're wrong? Sad really.

Bob asked about Ned's "common girl."  The part about being Jon's bio mom came at the end from. Ned named her. He did not clarify that she is Jon's mom. There was no "Her name was Wylla, and I don't want to talk about my bastard's mother any more." 
That is called subtlety. It is a communication device. It shouldn't be so difficult for you to understand. Sad really........

33 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Lol. I'm beginning to wonder if you have ever held your hands up and conceded anything in your whole existence. Darkstream had you there, take it on the chin and man up. Your stubbornness on this forum is pretty incredible, it's a shame as you seem an intelligent enough fellow who could make discussions fun if they didn't have to be right all the time.

I admit I am wrong all the time. I even did it a few pages back in this thread. Give it a look. I bet you can find it. 
Darkstream wrote somethign on the internet but he is a stranger. While you might enjoy taking something on the chin from a strange man you met on the internet, I do not. It also does not behoove you to tell someone to "Man up" especially when you are being as "stubborn" on a subject as I am. So lead by example, take the high road and admit you are wrong and that bran cannot influence the past or send messages to the past. 

25 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

When?

I though you were really upset with me because someone else brought up Jon's parentage. Why are you now engaging with this?

[Dorian Martell]

3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

My gods, now your just making yourself look like a total ass. I've already supplied the quote, and you still deny it.

Here's the whole passage, read it, it shouldn't be that difficult to understand.

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak ofher."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned was not being honest nor dishonest. For the reason why, look in the general section for a pinned thread with 21 pages of replies. It has als the answers you seek. Also, read this link. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subtle

[Darkstream]

11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Ned was not being honest nor dishonest. For the reason why, look in the general section for a pinned thread with 21 pages of replies. It has als the answers you seek. Also, read this link. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subtle

No thanks, I'm not seeking these answers, I already know what's going on in that passage.

So, you are admitting that just because a character who has specific knowledge of a subject states something, it's not necessarily the absolute truth, or the only possibility? That's good to know.

[Dorian Martell]

15 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I think we are clear buddy boy, you keep it strictly asoiaf books with me from now on son and leave people's personal parental situations out of it. No point taking that topic any further on a forum but suffice to say, coming out your face like that in a real world situation may have had a slightly different outcome but alas, this is a book forum so let's stick to the books as this is why we are here ya?

and what would be that outcome buddy boy? no need to be obtuse. Remember son, if you want to keep something on topic, stop engaging on the off topic subjects. You can do it 

16 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And you most certainly do need to man up DM, Darkstream had you with the Wylla thing, I have you on the Bran thing, but it is obviously excruciatingly painful for you to hold your hands and admit when your wrong but I will persist until you do.

Again, I though the whole parentage talk was off topic. you are contradicting yourself son. the only thing you have on me is focus and fascination. It is why you persist on having me repeat the same answer over and over again.  I am flattered actually. 

19 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

So again. does Robert ever say Wylla was Jons mother? Give me a yes or no.

It is in the quote that darkstream posted. Go back and read it. 

20 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And Ned turns and asks who's there because Bran whispers Winterfell doesn't he? Bear in mind. I am not saying can change the past. Give me a yes or no.

By saying that Ned turns when bran says winterfell, you are in fact saying that bran can influence and therefore change the past. He cannot.

[Dorian Martell]

10 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

No thanks, I'm not seeking these answers, I already know what's going on in that passage.

So, you are admitting that just because a character who has specific knowledge of something states something, it's not necessarily the absolute truth, or the only possibility? That's good to know.

What I am saying is that comparing what ned says to what bloodraven says is falsely equivalent. and not relevant to the discussion about bran. You should really read the link I posted. It will help you figure this out. Plus you are making Mcgregor really upset by derailing his thread with parentage stuff so you should stop.  

[Clegane'sPup]

36 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Now to Bran. Ned turns and asks who's there. It is after Bran whispers Winterfell.

It is Bran whispering Winterfell that has caused Neds action isn't it? 

No it is not fact that Bran caused Eddard to turn. This probably isn’t going to change your mind as you seem to be set in your stance. Which is okee dokee wit me.

In context in the chapter Bran slips his skin as he has done with many times with Summer. This time when Bran slips his skin he goes in roots of the tree. Bran has eaten the weirwood paste prior to this event.

The context is that Bran’s physical body is sitting in the cave. He eats the paste, slips his skin and his essence/spirit is now traveling through this weirnet thingy.

Bran’s internal dialogue seems to be shock and awe;  bing, bang, boom and his mind is back in WF looking out of the heart tree eyes. He sees Eddard cleaning Ice.

Bran also has inner dialogue when he skin changes Summer. This instance you are speaking of while Bran is in the tree is also inner dialogue. “Winterfell,” Bran whispered. Kinda like saying holy mother of god is this really happening.

As a side note: What does Eddard do after he performs the King’s justice? I learned from Cat that Eddard goes to the heart tree to cleanse his soul after he kills someone.

His father looked up. “Who’s there? He asked turning…

The … means the line is incomplete. This ellipsis at the end of the line can’t be discounted.

It is not fact that Eddard heard Bran. Someone may have been approaching Eddard while he sat cleaning Ice in the godswood. I don’t know that for a fact because since this was Bran’s first experience using the weirnet thing he got scared and withdrew.

When his essence/spirit withdrew he returned to his body in the cave and Leaf asks Bran to tell what he saw. The conversation continues DwD c.34 p 458 hard cover US 2011.

As I said, my post in all likely hood will not change your stance. At least I may have shed a bit of light as to why people like myself do not agree.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Clegane'sPup just thought I'd leave this quote, just incase we have to refer to it. If it is this instance that Bran whispers to Ned, then we can be 100%sure that it is not Catelyn approaching that causes Ned to turn and ask who's there. 

As we can see, Cat approaches from the front. As would anybody coming into the Godswood, as when Cat approaches Ned the Weirwoods eyes are looking at her. The tree is behind Ned, anybody approaching would be from the front of the tree. Nobody is gonna sneak up on Ned while he's cleaning a massive Valyrian steel sword in any event are they? That's silly. So really, the noise comes from the tree doesnt it?

 

Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone. The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night. A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet, but the red eyes of the weirwood seemed to follow her as she came. "Ned," she called softly. 

He lifted his head to look at her. "Catelyn," he said. His voice was distant and formal. "Where are the children?"

[Clegane'sPup]

10 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Thanks for that, it was nicely put,

Thank you.

[Macgregor of the North]

Just now, Clegane'sPup said:

Thank you.

It's much better when we're all nice. I'm the first to admit. Stubborn pigheadedness will never get anybody anywhere. 

[Macgregor of the North]

For shits and giggles let's put them one before the other. Let's focus on Ned being distant and formal. Could Ned have perhaps had the Bran whisper incident not too long before Cat comes, and he is distant because he has been sitting wondering what the hell he had just heard?. Interesting to think so.

"Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning … "

 

"Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone. The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night. A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet, but the red eyes of the weirwood seemed to follow her as she came. "Ned," she called softly. 

He lifted his head to look at her. "Catelyn," he said. His voice was distant and formal. "Where are the children?"

[Clegane'sPup]

48 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@Clegane'sPup just thought I'd leave this quote, just incase we have to refer to it. If it is this instance that Bran whispers to Ned, then we can be 100%sure that it is not Catelyn approaching that causes Ned to turn and ask who's there. 

As we can see, Cat approaches from the front. As would anybody coming into the Godswood, as when Cat approaches Ned the Weirwoods eyes are looking at her. The tree is behind Ned, anybody approaching would be from the front of the tree. Nobody is gonna sneak up on Ned while he's cleaning a massive Valyrian steel sword in any event are they? That's silly. So really, the noise comes from the tree doesnt it?

 

Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone. The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night. A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet, but the red eyes of the weirwood seemed to follow her as she came. "Ned," she called softly. 

He lifted his head to look at her. "Catelyn," he said. His voice was distant and formal. "Where are the children?"

Aaaahh my lil tartan. You mock me. Shame. I said the ellipsis cannot be discounted.  As in the sentence is incomplete. I don’t know which year Bran was viewing. Eddard has been home in WF for 15 years.

[Bironic]

Bloodraven tells Bran that he can't change the past. Why should Bloodraven lie (to Bran and us as readers)?

Bloodraven should know if you can change the past, he had all the time in the world to try and he is the last greenseer after all.

I admit that I don't like the whole concept of changing the past, because it leads to too many stupid plots. Bran could go speak to himself to not climb the tower when Robert comes to Winterfell. This would lead to a different timeline etc. Or he could prevent the Wotfk by telling Robert that Joffrey isn't his son. Basically if Bran can change the past, he will change it and when he does this will lead to a different present. Which basically makes the books obsolete. Time changing stories are nice in things such as Star trek etc. I don't need them in ASOIAF.  This ability makes Bran way too powerful, after all he could go 8000 years in the past and prevent the long night etc...

I admit that I can't really proof that Bran can't change the past, but I really hope that GRRM doesn't go down that path.

What makes Eddard turn his head?

1. We don't even know if this is the same time we see him in AGOT.

2. Surely you have been in a wood yourself, so you know that there are a lot of things that you hear in a forest that you can't tell exactly what/where they are. Eddard hears something and turns his head becaues he thought he heard someone. But this isn't true because it could have been anything: A bird, a squirrel, a falling pinecone, a person approaching, Catelyn, an animal, rustling leaves in the wind...

It doesn't have to be Bran.

Furthermore Ned goes in the weirwood "to cleanse his soul" as Cat puts it. He "speaks" to his gods, people who are praying to their respective god, quite often fall in some sort of trance. And they often "hear" their gods. Even if others don't hear or see them.

3. We don't even know if Weirwood trees can speak at all (in the present I mean). While we have evidence in the books that Bloodraven/Bran can speak through ravens, we have only one occasion when a tree "speaks", when Theon hears his own name in Winterfell. And we know that theon isn't actually mentally sane in that moment...