Bran. The darkness. And a return to thoughts on that Jon/Ghost/Bran/Weirwood dream from ACOK.

[ravenous reader]

13 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Back to Bran, so his whisper of the word Winterfell is what makes Ned turn and ask who is there yes?

Actually, Dorian the Difficult is 'right' on this one (much as that pains me, although I suspect he's right for the wrong reasons).  We can't ascertain the causality for sure.  The mysterious thing about a causal loop time paradox or predestination paradox is that there is no source for the action in question.  In the article which both @Little Scribe of Naathand I have cited ad nauseum complete with diagrams, there is an example of a person who goes back in time to impart some information to the 'conceiver' of that same information.  This would be like knowing Beethoven's symphony no. 5 in advance and going back in time to give Beethoven his own sheet music, enabling him to write the thing in the first place.  So, with whom did the music originate?  An analogous situation might arise if Bran goes back in time to teach Bran the Builder how to build Winterfell, armed with the foreknowledge of the architecture of the architect.  So when Bran whispers and Ned turns around it's difficult to trace the source of Ned's action.  Was Beethoven always going to write the music; was Ned always going to turn around?

This is the Song of the Earth -- music without source, preceding action, informing the question, the thought that moves the waters.

I don't know who spoke first -- but contact was made.

[Macgregor of the North]

13 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Aaaahh my lil tartan. You mock me. Shame. I said the ellipsis cannot be discounted.  As in the sentence is incomplete. I don’t know which year Bran was viewing. Eddard has been home in WF for 15 years.

The sentence is incomplete as in Ned was going to say more after he turned no? 

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning … "

It can't be someone approaching as Ned would just look up but he turns to the face of the tree where the noise comes from doesn't he? As in to say 'who's there?' Who said that? Or What was that?. 

Seems straight forward to me.

[Clegane'sPup]

7 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Seems straight forward to me.

Cool

[Macgregor of the North]

@Bironic

Sorry about wait, I look at this forum very very little at the weekend. 

As to Ned hearing somebody approaching, it is clear that Ned always sits on his moss covered stone, with the tree face directly behind him. His back is to it. If people approach Ned it is coming directly at him, not from behind as the next quotes will show. So the noise, which I believe is caused by Bran whispering through the tree, manifests itself at the other end as possibly a nature sound, yes, but it is very very clear that it comes from right behind him, as in the direction of the tree itself. 

Now, if we say that somebody crept into the Godswood, circled round Eddard, and made a sound while he was cleaning a massive Valyrian steel sword he uses to lop people's heads off, then while that is possible(I suppose) I just find that very unbelievable. I think Ned always gets left alone after executions, Cat only breaks that protocol grudgingly to tell him of Jon Arryns death. In any event I think the quotes below debunk any notion that the noise comes from an approaching human into the Godswood.

"Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone."

"Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms"

"the red eyes of the weirwood seemed to follow her as she came. "Ned," she called softly. 

He lifted his head to look at her. "Catelyn," he said. His voice was distant and formal. "Where are the children?"

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning … "

[Macgregor of the North]

On 24 September 2016 at 6:25 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Cool

Cool like you see where I'm coming from? Or Cool like....?

[Macgregor of the North]

On 23 September 2016 at 9:35 PM, Bironic said:

 

3. We don't even know if Weirwood trees can speak at all (in the present I mean). While we have evidence in the books that Bloodraven/Bran can speak through ravens, we have only one occasion when a tree "speaks", when Theon hears his own name in Winterfell. And we know that theon isn't actually mentally sane in that moment...

The evidence we use to claim Bran is talking through the Raven(which I do believe) is maybe even weaker than evidence really that we use to claim Bran is communicating with Theon through the tree, because it actually takes on Brans face, which Theon sees, and even murmurs the word Bran.

Also, GRRM points out twice that when Bran talks to Theon through the tree, there is no wind, the leaves are rustling with no wind. Brans words are actually rustling the leaves on the tree.

Im in disagreement that Theons mind has snapped, he is mentally stable, he simply had an identity crisis and Bran has actually helped him regain his identity.

I'll end by saying, I have never claimed that Bran will reach back through time to change the past, that's impossible. But I do believe wholeheartedly that when Bran whispered 'Winterfell' that made his father turn, and when Bran called out to him the second time, that also made Ned look up and frown at the tree for a long time.

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Cool like you see where I'm coming from? Or Cool like....?

 

It means that I don’t care if the heart tree was in front of, in back of or to the left or right of Eddard. It means that I’m gonna go with what Bloodraven told Bran as it was written in DwD.

If I’m gonna obsess about sumtin it’s gonna be about how the hell Bloodraven came to be in the CotF cave. Maybe Martin will slip a novella into one of those anthology books him & Dozois edits.

[Macgregor of the North]

On ‎23‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 7:57 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

Someone may have been approaching Eddard while he sat cleaning Ice in the godswood.

You see how i could assume that you were at least speculating at Ned being approached by someone entering the godswood yes? Which means you did care about what direction the noise came from as that is a big part of the evidence for such an assumption.

I believe i have debunked the idea he was approached by somebody entering the godswoood leaving the only possibility for the direction of the noise that makes him turn is for it to have came from behind him, which incidentally is where the tree is.

So do you not care because i have disproved that Ned was talking to somebody approaching him in the godswood, as in like, oh well i no longer care to talk about this. Or do you simply just not care, whatever that may mean?

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Macgregor,

You cannot make those see, who don't want to see.

[Clegane'sPup]

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

So do you not care because i have disproved that Ned was talking to somebody approaching him in the godswood, as in like, oh well i no longer care to talk about this. Or do you simply just not care, whatever that may mean?

Believe what you want to.

[Macgregor of the North]

On 24 September 2016 at 7:50 AM, ravenous reader said:

Actually, Dorian the Difficult is 'right' on this one (much as that pains me, although I suspect he's right for the wrong reasons).  We can't ascertain the causality for sure.  The mysterious thing about a causal loop time paradox or predestination paradox is that there is no source for the action in question.  In the article which both @Little Scribe of Naathand I have cited ad nauseum complete with diagrams, there is an example of a person who goes back in time to impart some information to the 'conceiver' of that same information.  This would be like knowing Beethoven's symphony no. 5 in advance and going back in time to give Beethoven his own sheet music, enabling him to write the thing in the first place.  So, with whom did the music originate?  An analogous situation might arise if Bran goes back in time to teach Bran the Builder how to build Winterfell, armed with the foreknowledge of the architecture of the architect.  So when Bran whispers and Ned turns around it's difficult to trace the source of Ned's action.  Was Beethoven always going to write the music; was Ned always going to turn around?

This is the Song of the Earth -- music without source, preceding action, informing the question, the thought that moves the waters.

I don't know who spoke first -- but contact was made.

Ravenous reader

I have not been ignoring this post, I simply haven't been able to word my reply as good as I'd hope until now. And even now I'm not fully confident with it, although I do grasp what I'm trying to get across.

In regards to the two incidents at the Winterfell heart tree where Ned reacts to sounds. I believe the answer is in the books text already and it does indeed point to Bran who causes these reactions. 

First up. How do Weirwood trees see 'time'. We know that time for a Weirwood tree is different than time for man.

"Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different."

"A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one."

If the past, present and future are one for the tree, then anything said or noise originated through the tree from what we may class as the 'future', is not classed as the future for the tree, it is all one time.

So if we think of Bran and his ability that is becoming apparent, such as the ability to send communications through Weirwood Heart tree's that manifest on the 'other side' as understandable noises/whispers/voices in 'real time', as seen with Theon. 

Then if we remember that time is not the same for the trees as it is for humans, and that past, present and future are one, then we can look at the instances of Brans attempted communication with his father on two different occasions at Winterfell as not Bran sending a noise/whisper from the 'future' to the 'past' to change Neds actions. 

But Brans whispers always have manifested as noises on the 'other side' for Ned to hear and turn to ask who is there(on the 1st occasion) and frown for a long time at the tree(on the 2nd occasion).
This is not Bran changing the past, time is all one for the tree, them noises were always made at that time and it always happened that way. 

There is no different version of the past, it only happens once. And because time literally means nothing to the tree really, Ned always turned at that time, and always looked up frowning the second time, and Brans whispers through the wind always caused him to do so. 

So Bloodraven is most certainly correct. Bran can not change the past. 

[ravenous reader]

12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Ravenous reader

I have not been ignoring this post, I simply haven't been able to word my reply as good as I'd hope until now. And even now I'm not fully confident with it, although I do grasp what I'm trying to get across.

Hi Macgregor,

I empathize with what you're saying.  Talking about time in this way tends to tie ones tongue in knots!   As humans, we are stuck in the river of time, and with it our language systems, so the syntax we use in order to describe 'reality' has an intrinsic, built-in 'time'-bias. For example, we find it difficult to think ourselves out of the causality implied by the sequence subject-verb-object.  You'll notice, the deeper we venture into exploring the time 'rabbit-hole,' the trickier and more convoluted our tenses tend to become, and identities inevitably break down and fragment, leading to circumlocutions bordering on the nonsensical like 'Bran from the future in the past' (it's my contention that GRRM is alluding to this sense of emergent ridiculousness attendant with the sci-fi elements he's included in his story by inserting silly neologisms like 'nennymoans,' in order partially to designate the magical facility at work, as well as to toy with his reader of course!).  

In my previous post, I was alluding to just such a breakdown in the distinction between a clear 'subject' and 'object' defining the action, when I said that I couldn't tell you 'who spoke first,' in other words who initiated the given action and 'response.'  Even if we accept that Bran initiated the sound causing his father to turn around to look at the tree, it's nevertheless a bit difficult to conceive of how someone who has not yet been conceived (i.e. Bran has in all likelihood not yet been conceived let alone born at that point in Ned's trajectory; he doesn't even exist as a 'sperm') could have an effect on anything or anyone!  

GRRM intends us to ponder such mindbending questions, deliberately giving Bran an additional vision of a much younger version of his father (following upon the first vision in which Ned physically appeared to Bran as Bran remembers him), the circumstances of the second vision implying the scene could only have taken place before Bran's birth.  We can deduce this both from Ned's natural hair color (no hint of grey) and from the subject matter, praying to the tree (his unborn son!) about how he hopes Robb and Jon will become close as brothers as they grow up, and that Catelyn will forgive him in time.  

By the way, note how the vision kicks off with Bran staring into the flames and 'dreaming' without closing his eyes (flame gazing is a kind of greenseeing)-- it's a fire vision combined with 'skinchanging' the tree, so Bran's magical abilities are not restricted to 'weirwood magic' alone-- an observation previously made by the wonderfully astute and text-savvy @evita mgfs, whose presence is dearly missed on this forum.  Bran -- supposedly the avatar of the Great Wolf who should, according to all expectations, be diametrically  opposed to the 'man wreathed in flames' in the presumed dichotomy-- can read flames like a practitioner of R'hllor!  Putting the image of wolf, tree and fire together, perhaps the 'hellhound' gargoyle of the hellhound-and-wyvern combo (Cressen's 'old friends'..'.if only stone tongues could speak...') is representative of Bran's powers, making the 'wyvern' Bloodraven his 'partner in crime', down in the cave of weirwoods slowly petrifying whilst preserving them, like stone.  Incidentally, this magical confluence is what I and others such as @Cowboy Dan have been debating with @LmL lately, whereby it's my assertion that greenseeing can not so easily be broken down into strict categories of fiery vs. non-fiery, heretic vs. non-heretic, etc. 

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow."

Hodor carried Bran back to his chamber, muttering "Hodor" in a low voice as Leaf went before them with a torch. He had hoped that Meera and Jojen would be there, so he could tell them what he had seen, but their snug alcove in the rock was cold and empty. Hodor eased Bran down onto his bed, covered him with furs, and made a fire for them. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes.

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

"Father." Bran's voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. "Father, it's me. It's Bran. Brandon."

Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak. He cannot see me, Bran realized, despairing. He wanted to reach out and touch him, but all that he could do was watch and listen. I am in the tree. I am inside the heart tree, looking out of its red eyes, but the weirwood cannot talk, so I can't.

Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood's? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?

 

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In regards to the two incidents at the Winterfell heart tree where Ned reacts to sounds. I believe the answer is in the books text already and it does indeed point to Bran who causes these reactions. 

I agree.  No need to belabor that point any further!

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First up. How do Weirwood trees see 'time'. We know that time for a Weirwood tree is different than time for man.

"Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different."

"A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one."

 

 this is a key passage.  Another clue is given by Bloodraven's hollow/cave which is described as 'timeless,' hinting it's an underworld space independent of conventional time, yet perhaps capable of serving as a portal onto many times at once.

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If the past, present and future are one for the tree, then anything said or noise originated through the tree from what we may class as the 'future', is not classed as the future for the tree, it is all one time.

Hmmm...the plot thickens... Except, just to play 'devil's advocate,' can one really talk about 'origin' when there is no past, present, or future differentiation; implying there's no room for concepts such as 'before' and 'after,' so how can one talk about 'beginning' and 'end,' respectively? (you see what I meant about these kinds of discussions inevitably tying our discourse in knots..).

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So if we think of Bran and his ability that is becoming apparent, such as the ability to send communications through Weirwood Heart tree's that manifest on the 'other side' as understandable noises/whispers/voices in 'real time', as seen with Theon. 

Then if we remember that time is not the same for the trees as it is for humans, and that past, present and future are one, then we can look at the instances of Brans attempted communication with his father on two different occasions at Winterfell as not Bran sending a noise/whisper from the 'future' to the 'past' to change Neds actions. 

But Brans whispers always have manifested as noises on the 'other side' for Ned to hear and turn to ask who is there(on the 1st occasion) and frown for a long time at the tree(on the 2nd occasion).
This is not Bran changing the past, time is all one for the tree, them noises were always made at that time and it always happened that way. 

There is no different version of the past, it only happens once. And because time literally means nothing to the tree really, Ned always turned at that time, and always looked up frowning the second time, and Brans whispers through the wind always caused him to do so. 

So Bloodraven is most certainly correct. Bran can not change the past. 

On one level, he's 'correct,' like our own 'Dorian the Difficult' who also doggedly asserts this dogma.  On another level, an alternative way of viewing this is that Bran has always changed the past.  Therefore, Bran is capable of changing the past, and has, and will!   It's not about 'fixing' or 'resetting' anything, though he may try -- in fact, whatever damage and/or repair has been done is destined to be done, even before Bran's birth, and, should he be capable of contacting the 'future,' he could also presumably have an effect on events following his own death. Lots of paradoxes abound.

Let me remind you of my earlier post on the 'Jon's weirwood sapling dream' thread, in which I posited that this confluence of times is being visually represented by GRRM by the eye contact made between the weirwood tree (Bran's 'future' self) and 'flying'/ 'god's-eye' /coma-dream Bran (his 'present' self at that point in the story).  By a 'circular logic,' this means that Bran's already opened his 'third eye,' even before he opens it!  In case we didn't 'get' it, GRRM includes the imagery of the weirwood's mirror reflection, 'brooding over itself' in the black pool, symmetrically juxtaposed with the weirwood turning its face upwards towards Bran (water-tree-sky: Yggdrasil).  Self-reflection ad infinitum (and by 'self-reflection,' I mean the optics of mirrors held up against each other mise-en-abyme, together with the brain's mechanism of self-reflexive thought, plus GRRM's time games). 

The future is interwoven with the past.  Hence, my description of 'the song of the earth' being music without source...no-one can be identified as speaking, or 'singing', or 'rustling' first per se, yet paradoxically contact is made between people, places and times.  The 'contact' to which I'm referring can be conceptualized as a magical 'seam' in which two or more times 'rub up against each other,' forming a complex interdigitation (interlocking) or imbrication (overlapping/overlayering) with one another. As you've suggested, the trees provide this continuity.  Being textually interwoven into the fabric of a time and place (implying one can not easily separate the intertwining, contributing threads), to the point where you are having an effect on the consciousnesses of others, is not the same as watching a movie.

The trees, aka greenseers, do not 'just watch.'  They act on others.  There's plenty of suggestive foreshadowing to back this up, for example below (I've added commentary in purple):

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A Dance with Dragons - The Wayward Bride

"To the walls," Asha Greyjoy told her men. She turned her own steps for the watchtower, with Tris Botley right behind her.

The wooden watchtower [greenseers in the wolfswood...this scene takes place at Deepwood Motte] was the tallest thing this side of the mountains, rising twenty feet above the biggest sentinels [greenseers as the watchers, guards] and soldier pines [fighters] in the surrounding woods. "There, Captain," said Cromm, when she made the platform. Asha saw only trees and shadows, the moonlit hills and the snowy peaks beyond. Then she realized that trees were creeping closer. "Oho," she laughed, "these mountain goats have cloaked themselves in pine boughs." [wearing cloaks like skinchangers, or greenseers donning symbolic gowns of tree leaves.  As @Wizz-The-Smith has identified, magical greenseeing loci are associated with hollow hills, so the 'mountain goats' could be a metaphor for the horned lords as @LmL has coined the 'naughty greenseers'] The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. [I love this one best!  Here is a further example of textual evidence supporting the 'green sea=green see' pun I've identified (introduced at length on this 'nennymoan' thread).  The image of trees transforming into seas reminds me of greenseers bringing down the 'hammer of the waters,' as well as the impending wave of dead men rising in the north encroaching on the kingdom (in geological terms, a glacier like 'the Milkwater' is a sea of ice, and glaciers despite being ice and seemingly stagnant, move).  So, together with the 'drowned men' type, tree camouflage the Others wear, and the 'Milkwater' which evokes 'milk glass' and the pale swords of the Others, it's tempting to think of them as the tree-turned-sea beings referenced and likened to a 'slow green tide', akin to the mobilization of Tolkien's tree forces in the LOTR, as @Wizz-The-Smith and I have mused. 'Calling down' the Waters is the inverse of 'calling up' the Walkers, and each is a kind of martial flood], She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors  "We cannot fight so many," Tris Botley said..[We're left with the same question we've always had: Why now?  Who is responsible for the Walkers rising?  Does this 'tale' or myth Asha's thinking about even refer to the Walkers (?), who would be Tolkienesque 'tree walkers' or 'night walkers' ...those who walk in the long night, to which GRRM drops cryptic references in the text:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

Dany had laughed when he told her. "Was it not you who told me warlocks were no more than old soldiers, vainly boasting of forgotten deeds and lost prowess?" [once politically powerful, greenseers have gone underground, both literally and figuratively, to practise their insurrections (and resurrections!)]

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. [night walker = white/wight walker (sigh...another one of GRRM's witty, alliterative, punning word-games!)] Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane [ghost grass = animated trees or white walkers?  Ghost grass is foreshadowed to cover the Dothraki Sea and the entire world, therefore grass/trees again aligned with massive flood/sea...The Dothraki Sea was historically once an actual inland sea, before it dried up and became savanna, so maybe the reverse to occur in future restoring the sea!], phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way [possible metaphor for greenseers in caves which are windowless houses, could also refer to the windowless High Tower in Oldtown...the 'phantom tortoises' is an interesting image (see the wikipedia article quoted below for symbology of tortoises and turtles)], and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. [ouroboros image, also punishment for the abomination of disrespecting guest right] The wife of Mathos Mallarawan,[not sure about his one] who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe,[Bloodraven, Grey King, and other greenseers frequently have frayed, tattered, drab, greyish clothes.  The 'moths' eating them could refer to the weirwoods/nennymoans/Children...I guess one might also think of the greenseers sitting in their hard, woven weirwood shells as 'turtles' or 'cocooned' by the weirwoods, like incubating silkworms-moths themselves, a cocoon being a symbol of transformation and rebirth, reflecting the 'pact' the greenseers have made with the weirwood] has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as though a thousand insects were crawling [can't help but think of Bloodraven and his 1000 skin-crawling eyes!] on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again [greenseers, the blind sages who engage in 'dark-seeing' under a sunless sea.  It's intimated that greenseeing is related to eating, requiring a blood sacrifice to 'awaken the powers and wed one to the tree'], or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. [not only in Qarth] And strange times are bad for trade. It grieves me to say so, yet it might be best if you left Qarth entirely, and sooner rather than later." Xaro stroked her fingers reassuringly. "You need not go alone, though. You have seen dark visions in the Palace of Dust, [likewise, a greenseer's cave is just another version of the house of the undying, and located underground 'palace of dust' is fitting] but Xaro has dreamed brighter dreams. I see you happily abed, with our child at your breast. Sail with me around the Jade Sea, [Jade Sea = green sea = green see; sailing around the Jade Sea is like greenseeing!  Alternatively, in this context, it would refer to Dany's Valyrian greenseeing equivalent, namely dragonriding]and we can yet make it so! It is not too late. Give me a son, my sweet song of joy!"

Give you a dragon, you mean. "I will not wed you, Xaro."

 

A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

"False is all you were. How is it you still breathe?"

"The gods are not done with me," Theon answered, wondering if this could be the killer, the night walker who had stuffed Yellow Dick's cock into his mouth and pushed Roger Ryswell's groom off the battlements. Oddly, he was not afraid. He pulled the glove from his left hand. "Lord Ramsay is not done with me."

The man looked, and laughed. "I leave you to him, then."

 

 

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From: Cultural Depictions of Turtles, wikipedia

Turtles are frequently depicted in popular culture as easygoing, patient, and wise creatures. Due to their long lifespan, slow movement, sturdiness, and wrinkled appearance, they are an emblem of longevity and stability in many cultures around the world. Turtles are regularly incorporated into human culture, with painters, photographers, poets, songwriters, and sculptors using them as subjects. They have an important role in mythologies around the world, and are often implicated in creation myths regarding the origin of the Earth. Sea turtles are a charismatic megafauna and are used as symbols of the marine environment and environmentalism.

As a result of its role as a slow, peaceful creature in culture, the turtle can be misconceived as a sedentary animal; however, many types of turtle, especially sea turtles, frequently migrate over large distances in oceans.

[Because Bran is symbolically 'under the sea,' according to my paradigm, if Bran or another greenseer is the 'phantom tortoise,' then he is more accurately a 'turtle' which is the sea-going, and importantly swifter version of the two, reflecting his greenseeing powers of communication, etc.!  'Tortoise' and 'turtle' correspond to my green see vs. green sea dialectic, as do terrestrial vs. marine anemones ('nennymoans')]

The tortoise is a symbol of wisdom and knowledge, and is able to defend itself on its own. It personifies water, the moon, the Earth, time, immortality, and fertility. Creation is associated with the tortoise and it is also believed that the tortoise bears the burden of the whole world.

The turtle has a prominent position as a symbol of steadfastness and tranquility in religion, mythology, and folklore from around the world.  A tortoise's longevity is suggested by its long lifespan and its shell, which was thought to protect it from any foe. In the cosmological myths of several cultures a World Turtle carries the world upon its back or supports the heavens. The mytheme of a World Tortoise, along with that of a world-bearing elephant, was discussed comparatively by Edward Burnett Tylor (1878:341).

Turtles were presented in rock art.

For alchemists, the tortoise symbolizes chaos, or massa confusa. [that sounds about right, when it comes to describing both the chaos the greenseers (the alchemists) seek to heal, as well as the chaos they create]

The four stages of alchemy -- (1) nigredo (black, massa confusa,darkness, the night, putrefaction, spiritual death); (2)  albedo (white, ablutio, purification, division into two opposing principles to be united later, moon, 'feminine'); (3)  citrinitas (yellow, the solar dawn or awakening, transmuting silver into gold, or reflective lunar into solar light, 'masculine');  (4)  rubedo (red, coincidentia oppositorum=the unification of opposites, the crowning achievement, transmuting base metals into gold, representing the forging of 'the philosopher's stone', conferring immortality) -- might be symbology GRRM would find relevant to adapt.  Please feel to theorise away!  All your responses are welcome.

[Macgregor of the North]

 

@ravenous reader

When you talk about Bran not even being conceived yet, or born yet so he can't have an effect on anything or anyone, these are issues that do not effect the tree and by the trees logic, not something it understands in any case. 

"Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. "

When Bran is wed to the trees, anything that passes through that conduit would play by its rules then, it would seem.

"The lives of trees are different."

We can go on about all sorts of time loops and paradoxes etc but the one constant here is that this magical Weirwood tree does not understand time, it means nothing to it. Bran not existing 'yet' does not matter to it because as seasons fly by like the flutter of a moths wing, time is absolutely of no consequence whatsoever, the past, present and future are all one to the tree.

" To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one."

Quote

On one level, he's 'correct,' like our own 'Dorian the Difficult' who also doggedly asserts this dogma.  On another level, an alternative way of viewing this is that Bran has always changed the past.  Therefore, Bran is capable of changing the past, and has, and will!   It's not about 'fixing' or 'resetting' anything, though he may try -- in fact, whatever damage and/or repair has been done is destined to be done, even before Bran's birth, and, should he be capable of contacting the 'future,' he could also presumably have an effect on events following his own death. Lots of paradoxes abound.

No, we are not viewing Bran as "changing" the past though, not in any sense ever, as the "changes" you're making to the past were what "already" happened anyway. In other words, there was no "first time around" - the past only happened once, there were no different "versions" of it. 

Because the magical Weirwood tree does not understand 'time', it is all one to it, past, present and future, so Bran has always caused the reactions. Bran can not change the past, in TWOW I believe there will be other situations that will show this clearer than I can.

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎22‎.‎08‎.‎2016 at 3:21 PM, DutchArya said:

Through her imposed darkness, Arya's skinchanging is found, and she does it easily, slipping into an animal that is hard to control. She skinchanges the cat in her sleep, [...]

Makes me wonder if Arya's magic capabilites (as a skinchanger and Warg) are much higher than - at least I - realizied until now.

• Skinchanging a cat without any training.
• Having strong dreams in the skin of Nymeria over a very long distance (Braavos to Riverlands).
• Maybe even controlling Nymeria:
  • when Nymeria's pack attacks Arya's pursuitors after fleeing Harrenhal
  • when pulling Catelyn's corpse from the river

Seems to be even stronger than Jon Snows abilities.

[a black swan]

Just now, Greywater-Watch said:

Makes me wonder if Arya's magic capabilites (as a skinchanger and Warg) are much higher than - at least I - realizied until now.

• Skinchanging a cat without any training.
• Having strong dreams in the skin of Nymeria over a very long distance (Braavos to Riverlands).
• Maybe even controlling Nymeria:
  • when Nymeria's pack attacks Arya's pursuitors after fleeing Harrenhal
  • when pulling Catelyn's corpse from the river

Seems to be even stronger than Jon Snows abilities.

I think that is a very interesting idea. Especially when you consider she has tried to stop the Wolf Dreams and failed:

Quote

Cat sat with her legs crossed, fighting a yawn and trying to recall the details of her dream. I dreamed I was a wolf again. She could remember the smells best of all: trees and earth, her pack brothers, the scents of horse and deer and man, each different from the others, and the sharp acrid tang of fear, always the same. Some nights the wolf dreams were so vivid that she could hear her brothers howling even as she woke, and once Brea had claimed that she was growling in her sleep as she thrashed beneath the covers. She thought that was some stupid lie till Talea said it too.

   I should not be dreaming wolf dreams, the girl told herself. I am a cat now, not a wolf. I am Cat of the Canals. The wolf dreams belonged to Arya of House Stark. Try as she might, though, she could not rid herself of Arya. It made no difference whether she slept beneath the temple or in the little room beneath the eaves with Brusco’s daughters, the wolf dreams still haunted her by night. and sometimes other dreams as well.

The fact that she growls in her sleep... would this be something the FM would not have noticed while she slept among them? Plague Face did call her out and told her she had the eyes of a wolf and a taste for blood.

 

Her control over Nymeria is curious.

While making their plans to escape Harrenhal Arya says she will howl as her signal to Gendry/Hotpie after she gets rid of the guard:

Quote

"There's a guard on that postern," said Gendry quietly. "I told you there would be."

"You stay here with the horses," said Arya. "I'll get rid of him. Come quick when I call."

Gendry nodded. Hot Pie said, "Hoot like an owl when you want us to come."

"I'm not an owl," Arya said. "I'm a wolf. I’ll howl."

...

 

When he stopped moving, she picked up the coin. Outside the walls of Harrenhal, a wolf howled long and loud. She lifted the bar, set it aside, and pulled open the heavy oak door. 

We know that Nymeria is close by with her pack. Arya said she would howl once the guard was dead and it was safe to come out. Does Arya will Nym to howl there? 

[Greywater-Watch]

16 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

The fact that she growls in her sleep... would this be something the FM would not have noticed while she slept among them? Plague Face did call her out and told her she had the eyes of a wolf and a taste for blood.

This is a point I thought about as well. Does Arya successfully keep secrets from the Faceless Men or not?:

• she does not tell the Kindly Man about how she was able to identify him as the one beating her with the stick (thinking for herself that he needed no to know everything)
• she hides her identity as Arya deep inside (and Needle as well at a hidden place) hoping it would be even hidden from the Kindly Man

I think it is important. If Arya can keep things secret from the FM, she may be able to escape their full control over her. If not she depends fully on the plans the FM have with her.