Bran. The darkness. And a return to thoughts on that Jon/Ghost/Bran/Weirwood dream from ACOK.

[Clegane'sPup]

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

And when Ghost sniffs the trunk of the tree he can smell death, which I presumed was the smell of Bloodraven's cave,

I'm thinking the smell was the death and destruction at WF after Ramsey put it to torch.

[ravenous reader]

20 minutes ago, Kienn said:

In Jon's dream he speaks to Bran-Tree, THEN Bran-Tree touches him. That would indicate that his "touched Ghost" was an earlier event. The way I read it is that he surfed the skinchange-net and found Ghost first, then Jon, then entered Jon's dream and had those events. The "touch" with Ghost is something we don't see as we don't have Bran's PoV during that. Either way that part doesn't really matter since even if Jon is dreaming of himself as Ghost(making Bran mistake him for Ghost), he's still not actually Ghost since Ghost is awake elsewhere in the mountains.

Jon is basically having a symbolic dragon-dream except he's a wolf not a dragon. Night is falling and the snow is blowing - the Long Night is coming. Bran enters Jon's dream at that point, and his metaphorical representation in Jon's dream is a tree. So either his entrance necessitates the appearance (by growth) of the tree. Or the growth is simply a representation of Bran's rapid growth in his own power as a greenseer in the darkness of the crypts.

'Touching' someone on the head (on the forehead at the site of the 'third eye') may aid in opening someone's third eye.  So, maybe touching Ghost first was a way of establishing the connection to Jon?  Then, the touch we actually witness in the dream is the second touch, this time to open Jon's third eye.  Actually, the chronology of the 'third eye' awakening is confusing, since people and animals seem to have certain powers, even before they are touched.

How do you conclude it's a 'dragon-dream'?  

9 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I'm thinking the smell was the death and destruction at WF after Ramsey put it to torch.

Good point.  I think the smell is described as 'fire and blood' -- the traditional Targaryen and now Ironborn way -- which is anathema to the old gods, of which Ghost is their embodiment.

[a black swan]

 

It's also quite interesting when Bran skinchanges a Raven:

Quote

 

"Then he realized he was not alone. “Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin.

'Some girl. I felt her.'

'A woman, of those who sing the song of earth (Child of the forest),' his teacher said. 'Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.'"

 

Arya wears her first face:

Quote

 

Her cheeks grew warm, flushed. She could feel her heart fluttering beneath her breast, and for one long moment she could not catch her breath. Hands closed around her throat, hard as stone, choking her. Her own hands shot up to claw at the arms of her attacker, but there was no one there. A terrible sense of fear filled her, and she heard a noise, a hideous crunching noise, accompanied by blinding pain. A face floated in front of her, fat, bearded, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage.

She heard the priest say, "Breathe, child. Breathe out the fear. Shake off the shadows. He is dead. She is dead. Her pain is gone. Breathe. "

...

"You may have bad dreams for a time," warned the Kindly Man. "Her father beat her so often and so brutally that she was never truly free of pain or fear until she came to us."

 

The Faces hold the memories of the owners. The faces hanging in Hall speak and whisper among one another and they watch her.

The Trees and skinchanged animals like ravens keep memories of previous occupants, the trees remember, they whisper and watch everything.

 

The magic seems very similar. 

 

The CoTF are listening, actively:

Quote

For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. 

Who is the long lonely howling wolf? 

[Kienn]

5 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

How do you conclude it's a 'dragon-dream'?  

Because it's a prophetic dream by someone with Targ blood. The Targs just call them dragon dreams since they appear as dragons in them. But I can't call Jon's version a wolf dream because that refers to a different type and is explicitly what I'm saying it's not.

[Clegane'sPup]

6 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Good point.  I think the smell is described as 'fire and blood' -- the traditional Targaryen and now Ironborn way -- which is anathema to the old gods, of which Ghost is their embodiment.

Sally forth.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

29 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Because it's a prophetic dream by someone with Targ blood. The Targs just call them dragon dreams since they appear as dragons in them. But I can't call Jon's version a wolf dream because that refers to a different type and is explicitly what I'm saying it's not.

Kienn,

That's a very interesting interpretation. But do Targs appear as dragons in their dreams? Dany has dreams of 'a man with blue lips' kissing her, and another one about her being mounted on dragonback, melting an army at the Trident. Those seem prophetic, but they aren't dragons in them.

The Jon-Bran dream seems to me something more like Dany's interactions with Quaithe - and we know those happen by means of glass candles induced by Quaithe herself. I'd say that this Jon/Bran episode was something similar -  Bran inducing the dream to open Jon's third eye. 

[Venus414]

Am I correct in thinking that Bran couldn't change time before eating Jojen, but he could communicate with Jon via their direwolves.  When the tree touched Ghost, what was that?

[Kienn]

12 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Kienn,

That's a very interesting interpretation. But do Targs appear as dragons in their dreams? Dany has dreams of 'a man with blue lips' kissing her, and another one about her being mounted on dragonback, melting an army at the Trident. Those seem prophetic, but they aren't dragons in them.

The Jon-Bran dream seems to me something more like Dany's interactions with Quaithe - and we know those happen by means of glass candles induced by Quaithe herself. I'd say that this Jon/Bran episode was something similar -  Bran inducing the dream to open Jon's third eye. 

Both Daeron the Drunken and Daemon II assume themselves to be the dragons in their own dreams. I take that to mean that by family lore that is the general format, no it doesn't meant that every dream a Targ has has themselves as a dragon...

[Clegane'sPup]

52 minutes ago, Venus414 said:

Am I correct in thinking that Bran couldn't change time before eating Jojen, but he could communicate with Jon via their direwolves.  When the tree touched Ghost, what was that?

The part you are missing is the raven net.The gnarled branch that touched Jon was the weirwood net. After that Bran could change time. But that was before Bran ate the weirwood seed paste. Be bery careful around dem ravens.

[Venus414]

I know about the weirwood net and I totally buy that theory I'm just confused about how they were able to get the tree to touch Ghost?! Didn't know they could move the trees?

[Venus414]

Clegane- you just completely helped me sort out that part of what's going on there- there is a part of Bloodraben in his Ravens that he refuses to give up to the weirwood network- who use him to serve their own purposes.  Wow!  So now that's settled, if only I could sort out this time issue...

[ravenous reader]

8 hours ago, Kienn said:

Because it's a prophetic dream by someone with Targ blood. The Targs just call them dragon dreams since they appear as dragons in them. But I can't call Jon's version a wolf dream because that refers to a different type and is explicitly what I'm saying it's not.

7 hours ago, Kienn said:

Both Daeron the Drunken and Daemon II assume themselves to be the dragons in their own dreams. I take that to mean that by family lore that is the general format.

 It seems both Targaryens and First Men can have prophetic dreams due to their 'magical genetics'.  But I like your subsequent explanation that Targaryens appear to themselves as dragons in their own dreams, independently of whichever avatar embodies them in someone else's dreams.  Maybe that's why Bloodraven is surprised when Bran first mentions the 'three-eyed crow'...Given his Targaryen blood, maybe he appears to himself as a dragon in his own dreams!  A further implication is that Jon's 'true' identity in his heart-of-hearts is 'Stark.' 

8 hours ago, DutchArya said:

It's also quite interesting when Bran skinchanges a Raven:

Quote

 

"Then he realized he was not alone. “Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin.

'Some girl. I felt her.'

'A woman, of those who sing the song of earth (Child of the forest),' his teacher said. 'Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.'"

 

Arya wears her first face:

Quote

 

Her cheeks grew warm, flushed. She could feel her heart fluttering beneath her breast, and for one long moment she could not catch her breath. Hands closed around her throat, hard as stone, choking her. Her own hands shot up to claw at the arms of her attacker, but there was no one there. A terrible sense of fear filled her, and she heard a noise, a hideous crunching noise, accompanied by blinding pain. A face floated in front of her, fat, bearded, brutal, his mouth twisted with rage.

She heard the priest say, "Breathe, child. Breathe out the fear. Shake off the shadows. He is dead. She is dead. Her pain is gone. Breathe. "

...

"You may have bad dreams for a time," warned the Kindly Man. "Her father beat her so often and so brutally that she was never truly free of pain or fear until she came to us."

 

The Faces hold the memories of the owners. The faces hanging in Hall speak and whisper among one another and they watch her.

The Trees and skinchanged animals like ravens keep memories of previous occupants, the trees remember, they whisper and watch everything.

 

The magic seems very similar. 

 

The CoTF are listening, actively:

Quote

For a long moment there was no sound but the wind and the water and the creak of leaf and limb. And then, far far off, beyond the godswood and the haunted towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, from somewhere out in the world, came the long lonely howl of a wolf. 

Who is the long lonely howling wolf? 

I love your whole post @DutchArya and your feel for your text!  It's not enough to 'know' the text; it's important to 'feel' it too.  Have you seen that film 'Himmel ueber Berlin' remade into the American version 'Wings of Desire'?  Your description of the faces hanging in the hall whispering reminded me of the scene in the library where the angels can eavesdrop on the collective thoughts of all the people sitting there, reading, daydreaming, etc.-- which sounds to them like a beautiful symphony of whispers tinkling and rustling rising and falling; they can also hear natural phenomena like the sound of the sunrise (cf. 'the song of the earth'). Indeed, as you've highlighted, the hall of faces is very similar to a copse of weirwoods or a flock of ravens serving as a dynamic repository 'holding the memories' of and for the collective (un)conscious.  Yes, the magic is similar:  the faceless men have their Hall of Faces and the green men have their Isle of Faces.  

'Who is the long lonely howling wolf' who replies to Arya...?  Certainly sounds like Nymeria, or Ghost, doesn't it?  What's your theory?

RE: 'a shadow on the soul'...

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

"Milk of the poppy, then? And something for your fever? You are still weak, my lord. You need to sleep. To rest."

That is the last thing I mean to do. The moonlight glimmered pale upon the stump where Jaime had rested his head. The moss covered it so thickly he had not noticed before, but now he saw that the wood was white. It made him think of Winterfell, and Ned Stark's heart tree. It was not him, he thought. It was never him. But the stump was dead and so was Stark and so were all the others, Prince Rhaegar and Ser Arthur and the children. And Aerys. Aerys is most dead of all. "Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?" he asked Qyburn.

The man's face grew strange. "Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she'd sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells behind us when we leave a room, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?" Qyburn spread his hands. "The archmaesters did not like my thinking, though. Well, Marwyn did, but he was the only one."

Jaime ran his fingers through his hair. "Walton," he said, "saddle the horses. I want to go back."

 

[Macgregor of the North]

15 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

But Ned would never have heard the rustling of the leaves if Bran had not spoken. That's where it's a closed loop - Bran always speaks from the future, Ned always hears it in the past. Ned wouldn't have heard anything at that point in time if Bran hadn't spoken.

Closed loop time travel is exactly that - Bran cannot change the past. There is no alternate timeline where Ned doesn't hear a rustling of leaves at that point in time, it always happened.

Having a scan through my thread again and this bit got me to thinking on another wee theory I have been thinking on that's a little out there. It follows the line of thought you are talking about on closed time loops and Bran not actually changing the past, as it always happened this way. 

I have been racking my brain over on another thread of mine about how Ned found out about Lyannas whereabouts. 

I fully believe it could not have been from a Kings landing source after the sack such as Varys, or Ethan glover after being freed from the cells etc, or Ned would have just left to get Lyanna right away and left the lifting of the Storms end siege to any of the other capable Lords that could have done it. I mean it didn't have to be Ned Stark really did it. 

Unless there is something significant to Storms end in regards to Ned finding out about Lyannas whereabouts. 

The Heart tree at the Storms end Godswood with the solemn face. 

This is possibly the Weirwood that the young boy who grew to be Bran the builder, passed instruction to Durran Godsgrief on how to finally build his castle  and ward it with magic. 

Everytime without fail I read of this small boy I think of Bran. 

What if we open our imaginations up and imagine Ned praying at the SE Godswood heart tree after lifting the siege. Thanking the Old gods that there was no more bloodshed and asking for some kind of sign where his sister was. Anything, just some sign. 

All he needed really was the rustle of leaves and the wind to pass on the words 'Tower, in the Princes pass' or something to that effect and in his desperate need he could even take that as a message from his Old gods as to where to find his sister. But it's really from his son Bran who at Neds time is not even alive yet. Similar to the time Bran called out to him before and Ned heard something, at that stage in Neds mind he has no son called Bran so will honestly just think this is his old gods sending him instruction. 

I understand this needs a leap to believe in it if you are just not on board with Bran talking and people in another time hearing, such as 'the past', but if we break through that barrier this becomes plausible really. 

Ned takes a handful of trusted companions and races south in haste. All Northmen who follow the Old gods. Maybe something in that? He felt no others would believe him on how he found out? Who knows. 

Or.... Maybe one of the Tyrell and Redwyne ranks knew of Lyannas location and gave the info upon yielding. Or maybe somebody sent a Raven to SE, but then it would be common knowledge and a larger force may have went? 

I'm liking my idea more and more that Bran, sitting in the darkness of the cave on his Weirwood throne, has sent a message to Ned through the wind and leaves on the location of his sister and incidentally Jon Snow who may be needed for something important in the story in the future.

Now people may say that GRRM has said we will not see gods appear etc. to change the story.

Check the wording though. 

GRRM:

" I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays."

Anymore than they already do, Closed time loops, it has always happened that way. 

Food for thought.

[Venus414]

It was a rumor that caused Ned to learn about Lyannas whereabouts.   The rumor stopped Cats wedding... And got Brandon Stark killed.  The same rumor sent Ned to Dorne for his sister, when we all know who's from Dorne,Ashara.  The most interesting part to me is that when Ned left to call his banners and was with the fishermans daughter, he crossed through the fingers. Safe to say, Baelish could have found out some things. 

 

Why send Ned to Dorne? Maybe he thought they wouldn't survive it, or that if Ned loved another he would never marry Cat

 

i think its a closed time loop that has One opportunity to change the past, the future, and but changing the future, he changes everything that's happened in the past. And he's stuck in this loop until he gets everything right.  That's where I'm at right now anyways.

[Tucu]

6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I love your whole post @DutchArya and your feel for your text!  It's not enough to 'know' the text; it's important to 'feel' it too.  Have you seen that film 'Himmel ueber Berlin' remade into the American version 'Wings of Desire'?  Your description of the faces hanging in the hall whispering reminded me of the scene in the library where the angels can eavesdrop on the collective thoughts of all the people sitting there, reading, daydreaming, etc.-- which sounds to them like a beautiful symphony of whispers tinkling and rustling rising and falling; they can also hear natural phenomena like the sound of the sunrise (cf. 'the song of the earth'). Indeed, as you've highlighted, the hall of faces is very similar to a copse of weirwoods or a flock of ravens serving as a dynamic repository 'holding the memories' of and for the collective (un)conscious.  Yes, the magic is similar:  the faceless men have their Hall of Faces and the green men have their Isle of Faces.  

'Who is the long lonely howling wolf' who replies to Arya...?  Certainly sounds like Nymeria, or Ghost, doesn't it?  What's your theory?

 

I don't think that that lonely wolf is Nymeria. She is a pack leader not a lone wolf. Also, Arya senses that that wolf is farther than Nymeria's pack:

She could hear the sound of her own breath, and the wolves as well, a great pack of them now. They are closer than the one I heard in the godswood, she thought. They are calling to me.

By the mix of wolf and trees in that scene, I think it is Summer/Bran. But it could be Ghost as he "belongs to the old gods"

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, Venus414 said:

It was a rumor that caused Ned to learn about Lyannas whereabouts.   The rumor stopped Cats wedding... And got Brandon Stark killed.  The same rumor sent Ned to Dorne for his sister, when we all know who's from Dorne,Ashara.  The most interesting part to me is that when Ned left to call his banners and was with the fishermans daughter, he crossed through the fingers. Safe to say, Baelish could have found out some things. 

 

Why hy send Ned to Dorne? Maybe he thought they wouldn't survive it, or that if Ned loved another he would never marry Cat

It's between Ashara or my crackpot Bran theory how Ned finds out.

Ashara made it out of harms way obviously and escaped Elias fate at KL, possibly with the information of Lyannas whereabouts which she could have gotten to Ned somehow. How though? 

Did she send a Raven to Storms End? There's a chance others could have seen it and more people than Ned knew, which would lead to more heading to the Tower of Joy. 

Ned learns of it in a secretive way I believe that could only be quite a bit after the sack of KL and likely at the time of the siege at SE(see my theory), or even after the siege when he is travelling again, possibly from Ashara somehow. 

[Venus414]

Ned and the fishermans daughter were in the Fingers.  Littlefingers from there who knows everything, the master of rumors and chaos.  He wanted Brandon Stark out of his way.

[Macgregor of the North]

12 minutes ago, Venus414 said:

Ned and the fishermans daughter were in the Fingers.  Littlefingers from there who knows everything, the master of rumors and chaos.  He wanted Brandon Stark out of his way.

LF may think he knows everything but he will be wrong on that count soon enough.

I can see LF's involvement with Brandon heading south, not Ned heading south. LF was travelling to the Vale through the riverlands two weeks after being injured by Brandon in their duel at Riverrun, which makes it possible he has somehow either witnessed something or heard something about Lyannas 'abduction', and relayed this info to Brandon, which resulted in Brandon heading to KL in reckless haste, to his demise. I could believe LF's involvement in that respect but i just cant see him being the one who tells Ned where to find Lyanna just because you think he knows 'everything', thats a pretty thin basis.

[Venus414]

its the same rumor.  Lyanna was abducted and taken to Dorne.  Maybe he only said Lyanna was abducted, one went to KL one went to Dorne to look for her, I don't know, but how you're separating the rumor is beyond me. 

 

And yes, im aware of house Royce and the shoe,  Lol

[Macgregor of the North]

13 minutes ago, Venus414 said:

its the same rumor.  Lyanna was abducted and taken to Dorne.  Maybe he only said Lyanna was abducted, one went to KL one went to Dorne to look for her, I don't know, but how you're separating the rumor is beyond me. 

 

And yes, im aware of house Royce and the shoe,  Lol

How about you make yourself perfectly clear for all to see. State exactly what you are saying regarding Ned, LF and your wee theory here so we are on the same page.

If you are stating what i think you are stating, that LF told Ned or got info to Ned somwehow when he was travelling North from the Vale to raise his banners that Lyanna was at the tower of joy in Dorne, then you are basically saying that right at the beginning of the war, before raising his banners, before the Trident, before the sack of KL, before the siege of Storms end. Basically before everything really, that Ned knew where his sister was but never went to her until like a year later after the siege?

Is that what you are saying?