Bran. The darkness. And a return to thoughts on that Jon/Ghost/Bran/Weirwood dream from ACOK.

[Dorian Martell]

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

I like your idea of a greendream nested within a wolf dream.  

So, according to your model there is an actual weirwood which ghost encounters in the landscape?

Then Bran takes Jon's attention away -- to where?

Who sees the weirwood growing in fast-forward:  Jon and/or Ghost?

I'm glad you like it. Yes, ghost sees an actual weirwood sapling growing out of the rock. IT is notable that even though it is small, it is in fact growing. Ghost can see that it isn't just a stunted thing, but it is strong with life, reaching for the sky.
Bran takes jon's attention away from Ghost looking at the sapling to Jon speaking directly to Bran 
Noonre sees the Tree growing in fast forward. It is just a growing tree. It is remarkable because the tree is growing out of rock, a seeming impossibility. 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

This strongly suggests that it is growing in fast-forward time lapse:

It starts out slender, then the trunk thickens before his eyes (the age of a tree is represented by the rings in its trunk laid on with each progressive year).  It starts out short and then grows upward 'reaching for the sky.'  So, the tree is maturing in front of him.

I disagree. the trunk thickens as he looks at the tree ie it starts slender and thichens as he looks up the tree.  He sees the branches get thicker the farther up the sapling they go. Mostly, the fast growing tree does not fit with the rest of my ideas, and I never read it as fast growing at all. 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

Good point.  This could have both metaphorical and literal significance.  Regarding the latter, do you think this is the same tree as the one at Bloodraven's cave?  Those weirwoods also spring out of the rock forming the cave.

Al weirwoods are connected by their roots. That is why the weirnet still works with just stumps. there are still roots south of the neck, like the brotherhood cave where sandor fights beric, and in the arianne chapters, there are new weirwood saplings in the rainwood. The weirwoods in bloodraven's cave are just the roots. 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

Fair enough.  So, where is the wolf physically at the time Jon is connecting with Bran?  I guess you would say the mountains.  Then where is the weirwood that the wolf appears to sniff?

Ghost is in the mountains around hte Skirling pass. He finds a wooded area and the weirwood and travels an unknown distance to a cliff where he sees the free folk gathering below. Both places are not far from where Jon and the rest of the rangers are sleeping. 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

If the weirwood is not physically on the mountain with Ghost, then are you saying Ghost has a split consciousness, and he is in two places at once mentally, if not physically?

No, ghost encounters a physical weirwood tree, and that is how Bran reaches out to him and Jon. Jon sees through Ghost's senses until Bran keeps his attention, then after jon returns to Ghost and sees the free folk below the cliff. 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

The text strongly suggests, as I explained above, that it is abnormally fast growing.  It's also the strangest element in the scene, and the one scene we have to account for, if we are to make sense of what's happening here.  This is a key difference between our interpretations.

There is nothing strong in the text. It is ambigious enought that we are having this discussion. It is the a key difference between out interpretations. 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

Initially, that's true: he can only watch.  But then there are hints of progressively more advanced powers, starting with his ability to taste the blood of the Bronze-age sacrifice predating his birth.  Bran moves from watching and listening to his father, rustling leaves in return, which his father is alerted by but can't comprehend; to channeling his father's message to Arya somehow; to reaching out to Theon touching him, opening his third eye, and translating his own message to Theon from the True Tongue to the Common Tongue so that Theon comprehends their respective names.

Not Initially, totally. when Bran asks if physical interaction is possible he is told directly that it is not.  There are no hints. He tries to speak to his dad and fails, and bloodraven explains why.  I am not sure about Arya, but Bran does not speak the true tongue and theon does not hear it. Theon hears his name, in the common tongue. There is not time travel, just watching. 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

It's implied he did attempt to open their third eyes, however the opening may have been partial or 'shuttered' (think of the wooden shutters on a window which can be adjusted so varying degrees of light are filtered through).  In other words, I believe there are different gradations of 'third-eye' opening -- Bran's capability just happens to be more advanced -- and it's not limited to communicating via the weirnet. Sometimes it signifies a moral awakening, e.g. Jaime's 'redemption arc' triggered by the weirwood dream which similarly 'pounds' a path for his third eye, inspiring him to turn the horses around and go back to Harrenhal for Brienne.  In Theon's case, Bran bestows Theon's true name on him, exorcising the ghastly 'Reek' persona which has been brutally thrust on him by Ramsay, whereafter Theon is inspired to reform himself, rescuing Jeyne, and possibly also playing a part in the 'resistance' assassinations attributed to 'a ghost in Winterfell.'  By the way, who do you think the 'ghost' refers to?

I agree he tried to open Jon's, but he is weak and unskilled. there is no gradient to opening a third eye. It is open or it is not. that is why the raven pecks at Bran's head in the coma dream. It does seem bran talks to Theon, but reek is not gone. The Theon winds chapter shows this. Theon struggles with his true self vs reek. Helping Jeyne escape was heroic, but it was brought about by the washer women, not by Bran 
I also disagree about Jamie's moral changes as a third eye opening. The weirwood dream put him back in touch with his younger idealized self   

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

Good point.  However, Bran's more specifically been associated with the tree.  Ned is the one who prays to the tree, but not the one who answers from the tree, so I consider it less likely to be Ned.  

Good point. If it had been a dream with Arya that might be differrent

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

 My point was not a commentary on affecting the past.  You can't deny the fact of the time travel, though.  Bran goes back in time all the way to the Bronze age before his birth and tastes the blood of the sacrifice.  It's in the text -- I'm not making things up!

I am totally denying physical time travel.  Bran never leaves the root ball. the weirnet is like a hig def recorder. if you know how to play it back you can experience everythign the tree saw, heard or tasted. IT is visceral for bran, but he does not go back in time. He only observes.
 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

Yes, he's predominantly watching, but he's not completely passive.  He moves the leaves in an attempt to communicate, he tastes the blood.  There is an intersection of 'time zones' taking place.  In the scene with Theon he reaches down with the branch/leaf to touch Theon's head, so it's implied that he might be able to do this in the past as well.

He is passive though. He didn't move leaves to communicate, he tried to yell at his dad, and his dad heard a rustling of leaves, because bran is not there. The deal with theon is realtime, not interacting with the past. 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

Think of the 'fadeout' as a 'gear shift' -- shifting into another gear of consciousness, as it were, in both cases.  The only problem with the theory of Jon separating from Ghost while he padded around is that the text describes the wolf padding around the sapling/tree and sniffing the trunk, etc.  So how do you account for that if the connection between the wolf and Jon is broken, and the wolf is not at the sapling site, if that even physically exists (I'm not convinced it's not all in Jon's mind).

Jon never seperated from Ghost. He just wasn't paying attention. Ghost is Jon's link. That is why he went back to Ghost when he stopped focusing on Bran. The Sapling is real. It is the weirnet connection.

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

The explanation that he is projecting his desires and fears 'works' for people, scenes, and events Bran's already encountered, but not for those scenes going back in time of people he could never have witnessed personally.  How was he able to see Lyanna and her brother playing at swords, the pregnant woman praying, the woman with the bronze sickle making the sacrifice at the tree.  Who are those people? Why would Bran be thinking of them?  He doesn't love them or miss them, so what's that about?  And the weirwoods grow younger ('die in reverse') in that sequence, which hasn't been fully accounted for in your more purely-psychological version.

You misunderstand me. His desires are not the reason he sees things. The things he sees are plot poonts for the reader. A young ned speaking about two boys being raised as brothers indicates they are not actually brothers (Robb and Jon.) The boy and the girl playing with swords could be Lyanna and Benjen and it shows her martial inclinations and her strength (the opposite of Elia Martell) that would tie into the story of the knight of the laughing tree. The sacrafice at the tree with the bronze sickle shows what the ancient north was like, and how blood sacrifice was important to the worship of the old gods. The weirwoods "growing in reverse" is Bran watching them , like a VHS tape on rewind. 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

Ultimately, all fantasy is a psychological projection, isn't it?  Due to his troubled childhood, specifically his strained relationship with his biological father, GRRM received an early push to create alternate realities for himself, as I've speculated before:

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423

  Wow, I have never seen that interview before. 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

GRRM is explicit about a lot of things, then goes on to contradict himself.  I already explained how he deconstructs the 'fire consumes, ice preserves' supposed dichotomy to Little Scribe of Naath upthread.  We can't take everything he says at face value.  Bloodraven may be unable to contact his family; however, that doesn't mean Bran will be unable to.  Perhaps he's a more powerful greenseer than Bloodraven. Perhaps Bloodraven suspects it's possible; perhaps he even succeeded with disastrous consequences, which he's trying to pre-empt with Bran.  Another example of GRRM's playful disingenuousness: 'Dead men sing no songs.'  This is also not true.  The weirwood conglomerate is awash with the songs of the dead, provided one knows how to tune in.  A spiritual remnant of the singers remains in the ravens -- Bran even senses one of the singers in the raven he learns to fly -- hence presumably they may be able to 'speak' or 'sing' via the birds.  If Bran were able to eavesdrop on one of Rhaegar's Summerhall songs, and were he musical enough, he could 'bring the song back with him' and replicate it in the present, giving voice to a dead man's song, one no-one else living may have heard.  There are many possibilities.

It is a fantasy novel, so anything is possible, but with what the author has said about it I can't believe that affecting hte past will come into play 

 

On 8/27/2016 at 5:38 PM, ravenous reader said:

To reiterate, I'm not insisting that the past can be changed.  I believe, as I stated above, it's a fixed time loop.  Paradoxically, any modifications made have already been integrated, so they're not really intrusions so much as 'interweavings' which are already part of the fabric.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.  I was trying to make a point that no matter how hard one might try to change the past, one might end up with the same outcome anyway -- just like in the anecdote about the guy who wanted to avoid his death but just ended up precipitating it in that fashion, with a twist.   It's a caution that intervening isn't as simple as it may seem.  Not conflation -- illustration.

I get the single timeline theory, It just does not make sense to me in the book story. It makes sense in the TV show as they cannot go into the details that the books can. Bookwise, it seems like a cheap Mcguffin 

 

 

[Dorian Martell]

On 8/27/2016 at 6:09 PM, LynnS said:

Except for the slight contradiction in Jaime's weirwood stump dream.  He sees Cersei, Tywin and Joffrey and shadows of his ancestors going back to Lann the Clever.  Tywin and Joffrey will soon be dead and Cersei will no doubt lose her life as well.  Tywin's shade also says that he has already given Jaime a sword.  All these things are foreshadowings of future events.  Tommen and Myrcella are missing from this dream.

It's possible to enter someone's dreams using a glass candle and I suspect that her dreams are being manipulated.  She has an old recurring dream of Maggy the Frog but they take on a more sinister tone after Qyburn arrives.  In her last dream, she herself is being tortured in the black cells in the same fashion that the Blue Bard is tortured by Qyburn.  

Is it a question of entering the mind and reading what is there?  Her dreams have a completely different quality.  Nobody knows about Maggy except Cersei and whomever has been watching her dreams.

I do not get the stump dream as foreshadowing. I understand the Glass candle, but I think If Qyburn has one, we would have seen it. They are very large, very heavy and very sharp. Since he came to KL win almost nothing, I have to say he does not posess one. 

[Kienn]

Midday vs twilight

Sunny vs snowing

Treeless mountains vs vast forest

@Dorian Martell This really isn't ambiguous at all.

[Venus414]

I'm saying Baelish started the rumor that Lyanna was abducted and taken to Dorne right before Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, the love of his life.  He was successful in spreading a rumor that got the guy killed, just like with Jon Arryn, and similar to what he did to Ned.  It is absolutely within his character to do so. 

 

He he had the motive.

[Venus414]

I have to apologize, I'm new to the forum and I'm still ill getting aquainted with navigating it.

ipretty much have no idea what I'm doing at this point (on my phone) 

[Dorian Martell]

6 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Midday vs twilight

Sunny vs snowing

Treeless mountains vs vast forest

@Dorian Martell This really isn't ambiguous at all.

context please 

 

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

I do not get the stump dream as foreshadowing. I understand the Glass candle, but I think If Qyburn has one, we would have seen it. They are very large, very heavy and very sharp. Since he came to KL win almost nothing, I have to say he does not posess one. 

I'm don't think that Qyburn has a glass candle but a connection to someone who does.  But that's another thread altogether.

 When Jaime asks for a sword; the shade of Tywin says that he has already given him one.  Both Brienne and Jaime then have swords; both glowing with a tracer of blue light.  That would point to Ned sword Ice; reforged into two swords.  When Cersei's shade tells Jaimie that when the light goes out; he will as well; she is talking about death.  He sees Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey in a line up with the shades of dead ancestors going back to Lann the Clever.  Twyin and Joffrey die soon after he returns to KL.  Cersei is on her way out at some point as well.  This seems very much like forshadowing to me.  Even if you don't factor in Brienne in the bear pit.   

[cgrav]

But Jaime doesn't end up wielding either of Ice's daughter swords. He gives Briennr Oathkeeper, and we aren't told about Widow's Wail. I'd say the sword represents the chivalrous nature that Brienne has taught him he should possess. Without the ability to fight, chivalry/honor is the only thing he has left to live for, just as Brienne lives for honor. He has to wield honor as he once wielded a sword.

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

Mostly, the fast growing tree does not fit with the rest of my ideas, and I never read it as fast growing at all. 

Dorian, your words here are very suggestive.  It's often the things we discount that hold the key.  Our 'blind spots' -- we all have them, readers and authors alike (I include myself here of course)!  I don't think we can turn a blind eye to the fast-growing tree -- it doesn't 'fit' because we haven't understood it properly -- it's the key to the dream.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

Ghost is in the mountains around hte Skirling pass. He finds a wooded area and the weirwood

Did you see @Kienn's excellent observation that this cannot be happening physically, because the Skirling pass is above the tree line -- there are no forests, only patchy bits of lichen and straggly plants; weirwoods may not even be able to grow there.  I did ask the question whether weirwoods may be an exception to which no-one here has yet provided an answer, but that still wouldn't account for the forest.  Also, he points out the discrepancy in times, indicating that the 'first half' of the dream cannot be concurrent with what Ghost is actually doing, with reference to the fact that Jon is taking a nap earlier during the day than the twilight conditions of the dream. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

Sometimes they would see a few weeds struggling from some crack in the rock or a splotch of pale lichen, but there was no grass, and they were above the trees now.

 

40 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Midday vs twilight

Sunny vs snowing

Treeless mountains vs vast forest

@Dorian Martell This really isn't ambiguous at all.

I agree; your acute observations have wiped away the ambiguity.  Not sure about the second clue, though.  Jon/Ghost hears 'the sigh of snow blowing' indicating there's wind moving around the snow on the ground but not necessarily that's it's snowing per se.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

No, ghost encounters a physical weirwood tree, and that is how Bran reaches out to him and Jon. Jon sees through Ghost's senses until Bran keeps his attention, then after jon returns to Ghost and sees the free folk below the cliff. 

After the discussion on this thread and others like Heresy, I'm tending to the idea that Bran entered Jon's dreams another way -- similar to Bloodraven entering Bran's 'coma dream' in which he appeared as a 'three-eyed crow,' analogous to Bran's 'three-eyed weirwood sapling' avatar.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

I am totally denying physical time travel.

Please see my comment to @aryagonnakill#2 regarding my thoughts on the relative importance of 'physical' vs. 'non-physical' aspects here.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

when Bran asks if physical interaction is possible he is told directly that it is not.  There are no hints. He tries to speak to his dad and fails, and bloodraven explains why.  I am not sure about Arya, but Bran does not speak the true tongue and theon does not hear it. Theon hears his name, in the common tongue. There is not time travel, just watching. 

How does Theon hear his name in the 'common tongue' at all?  Who is speaking 'the common tongue'?  Bran is in the weirwood; he should not be able to speak using the common tongue.  So what's happening?

Interaction doesn't have to be 'physical' per se in order to qualify as transformative, as I tried to explain in the comment I linked for you above.  Also, advances in physics have shown us that 'just watching' is less 'just'/straightforward than we thought.  The observer may play a role in constituting the observed.  As an example, the Night's 'Watch' is supposed to take no part in politics, supposedly remaining neutral 'watchers'; however that hasn't strictly been the case.  I take it you may be one of those who looks askance at my poetic contributions, but here's a thought by a great poet, for what it's worth:

Quote

O chestnut tree, great rooted blossomer, 

Are you the leaf, the blossom or the bole? 

O body swayed to music, O brightening glance, 

How can we know the dancer from the dance?

 

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

there is no gradient to opening a third eye. It is open or it is not. that is why the raven pecks at Bran's head in the coma dream. It does seem bran talks to Theon, but reek is not gone. The Theon winds chapter shows this. Theon struggles with his true self vs reek. Helping Jeyne escape was heroic, but it was brought about by the washer women, not by Bran 
I also disagree about Jamie's moral changes as a third eye opening. The weirwood dream put him back in touch with his younger idealized self   

You may have inadvertently demonstrated my point via your argument...!  Indeed, were there no 'gradient' to third eye opening, were it not difficult, a journey, a quest with highs and lows and setbacks along the way -- Theon would not struggle caught between Theon and Reek, nor Jaime caught between 'his idealised self' represented rightfully or wrongly by Ser Arthur Dayne/Brienne vs. his 'Smiling Knight/Cersei' persona. Regarding Jaime -- one of my favorite characters -- GRRM does seem to be exploring some form of 'moral' reckoning with him:

From the same Rolling Stone interview:

Quote

Both Jaime and Cersei are clearly despicable in those moments. Later, though, we see a more humane side of Jaime when he rescues a woman, who had been an enemy, from rape. All of a sudden we don't know what to feel about Jaime. 

One of the things I wanted to explore with Jaime, and with so many of the characters, is the whole issue of redemption. When can we be redeemed? Is redemption even possible? I don't have an answer. But when do we forgive people? You see it all around in our society, in constant debates. Should we forgive Michael Vick? I have friends who are dog-lovers who will never forgive Michael Vick. Michael Vick has served years in prison; he's apologized. Has he apologized sufficiently? Woody Allen: Is Woody Allen someone that we should laud, or someone that we should despise? Or Roman Polanski, Paula Deen. Our society is full of people who have fallen in one way or another, and what do we do with these people? How many good acts make up for a bad act? If you're a Nazi war criminal and then spend the next 40 years doing good deeds and feeding the hungry, does that make up for being a concentration-camp guard? I don't know the answer, but these are questions worth thinking about. I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what's the answer then? [Martin pauses for a moment.]

 

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

IT is visceral for bran, but he does not go back in time. He only observes.

If you've made yourself conscious to someone in a past time, who reciprocally is able to have an effect on you, then an argument can be made for some form of 'time travel' that goes beyond mere 'movie-watching playback'.  

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

He didn't move leaves to communicate, he tried to yell at his dad, and his dad heard a rustling of leaves, because bran is not there.

To quote President Bill Clinton, 'that depends on what your definition of is is'..!

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell said:

I get the single timeline theory, It just does not make sense to me in the book story. It makes sense in the TV show as they cannot go into the details that the books can. Bookwise, it seems like a cheap Mcguffin 

Perhaps we should wait and see what he does with 'Hodor' and then revisit our discussion!  GRRM is tickled by some strange plotlines, it must be said.  A while ago, while musing on Euron, I found this:

https://mossfilm.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/george-r-r-martins-nightflyers-film-review/

 

[Kienn]

Quote

Jon/Ghost hears 'the sigh of snow blowing' indicating there's wind moving around the snow on the ground but not necessarily that's it's snowing per se.

On reread I guess the snow specifically is slightly ambiguous (since there are snowdrifts around the real Jon & Ghost) but I still prefer the interpretation that this portion of his dream is indicative of the "Long Night" coming again and is actually snowing.

Still sunny and bright before & after Jon sleeps and zero trees mentioned on the journey from their camp to when they find Ghost hiding after his injury.

[Venus414]

2 hours ago, cgrav said:

But Jaime doesn't end up wielding either of Ice's daughter swords. He gives Briennr Oathkeeper, and we aren't told about Widow's Wail. I'd say the sword represents the chivalrous nature that Brienne has taught him he should possess. Without the ability to fight, chivalry/honor is the only thing he has left to live for, just as Brienne lives for honor. He has to wield honor as he once wielded a sword.

I thought one went to Jamie now bri and one went to Joffery now Tommen?

Kindof like a dragon dream?  I swear by the old gods and the new, Aerys fathered his enemies "perfect" twins ..

 

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Kienn said:

still prefer the interpretation that this portion of his dream is indicative of the "Long Night" coming again and is actually snowing.

Yes, definitely.  I like that interpretation.

[cgrav]

34 minutes ago, Venus414 said:

I thought one went to Jamie now bri and one went to Joffery now Tommen?

Kindof like a dragon dream?  I swear by the old gods and the new, Aerys fathered his enemies "perfect" twins ..

 

The issue is that in the dream they are both wielding swords, while only one of them at a time is ever in possession of a post-Stark blade. The blue flame likely has some symbolic value, but I don't see any connection to Ice.

I think the dream is due to Jaime sleeping on a weirwood stump. 

[Dorian Martell]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Dorian, your words here are very suggestive.  It's often the things we discount that hold the key.  Our 'blind spots' -- we all have them, readers and authors alike (I include myself here of course)!  I don't think we can turn a blind eye to the fast-growing tree -- it doesn't 'fit' because we haven't understood it properly -- it's the key to the dream.

Did you see @Kienn's excellent observation that this cannot be happening physically, because the Skirling pass is above the tree line -- there are no forests, only patchy bits of lichen and straggly plants; weirwoods may not even be able to grow there.  I did ask the question whether weirwoods may be an exception to which no-one here has yet provided an answer, but that still wouldn't account for the forest.  Also, he points out the discrepancy in times, indicating that the 'first half' of the dream cannot be concurrent with what Ghost is actually doing, with reference to the fact that Jon is taking a nap earlier during the day than the twilight conditions of the dream. 

 

I agree; your acute observations have wiped away the ambiguity.  Not sure about the second clue, though.  Jon/Ghost hears 'the sigh of snow blowing' indicating there's wind moving around the snow on the ground but not necessarily that's it's snowing per se.

It is perfectly reasonable to discount something that is too strange to fit a theory. Especially when so many assumptions have to be made for the time travel theory to work in any form. As for @Kienn's observations:

Here is the quote:
“There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.”

Ghost is in the mountains, looking down over the haunted forest as night is falling. It was never "sunny" in Jon's wolf dream. Then they find the remarkable little Weirwood frowing out of the rocks. Nothing about looking out over a forest is contradictory to being in the pass. It is what makes the lone weirwood remarkable. 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

After the discussion on this thread and others like Heresy, I'm tending to the idea that Bran entered Jon's dreams another way -- similar to Bloodraven entering Bran's 'coma dream' in which he appeared as a 'three-eyed crow,' analogous to Bran's 'three-eyed weirwood sapling' avatar.

Heresy is BS. That is the whole point of it. That is where you have people discussing the idea that Lyanna got knocked up at Harrenhal and carried Bob's baby for almost 2 years until ned found her at the ToJ. Cute, but not really relevant. 
As for Bran contacting Jon like the 3EC, his skills are not developed. In dance bloodraven speaks of a time when he does not need a weirwood to use his greensight, but he is not there yet. Bran contacts Jon in clach when his third eye has just opened. This is why the weirwood has to be physical. Again, the text does not say the sapling was growing at an accelerated rate, just that it was growing in a improbable place
 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Please see my comment to @aryagonnakill#2 regarding my thoughts on the relative importance of 'physical' vs. 'non-physical' aspects here.

I read it, and I disagree. Remember, we have the master telling the student that things are impossible. Maybe they are, but until the author shows us that they are, and he hasn't it is  wanton baseless speculation on the beleivers part.  Bloodraven states that there is no time travel. All the maybes, possibilities and could bes mean nothing until the author shows it to the reader. 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Interaction doesn't have to be 'physical' per se in order to qualify as transformative, as I tried to explain in the comment I linked for you above.  Also, advances in physics have shown us that 'just watching' is less 'just'/straightforward than we thought.  The observer may play a role in constituting the observed.  As an example, the Night's 'Watch' is supposed to take no part in politics, supposedly remaining neutral 'watchers'; however that hasn't strictly been the case.  I take it you may be one of those who looks askance at my poetic contributions, but here's a thought by a great poet, for what it's worth:

Again, speculation, but no actual time travel. 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

How does Theon hear his name in the 'common tongue' at all?  Who is speaking 'the common tongue'?  Bran is in the weirwood; he should not be able to speak using the common tongue.  So what's happening?

why would a weirwood tree prevent bran from speaking in the only tongue he knows? you are making a needless assumption that. If Bran is talking to Theon, he would speak the only language he has ever known. Pure and simple. It could also be bloodraven or leaf as they both speak the Common tongue. 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

You may have inadvertently demonstrated my point via your argument...!  Indeed, were there no 'gradient' to third eye opening, were it not difficult, a journey, a quest with highs and lows and setbacks along the way -- Theon would not struggle caught between Theon and Reek, nor Jaime caught between 'his idealised self' represented rightfully or wrongly by Ser Arthur Dayne/Brienne vs. his 'Smiling Knight/Cersei' persona. Regarding Jaime -- one of my favorite characters -- GRRM does seem to be exploring some form of 'moral' reckoning with him:

From the same Rolling Stone interview:

A character going through a moral dilema, where they are trying to find a better part of themselves is a universal aspect of humanity and has nothing to do with greensight (opening their third eye) so you have actually proven my point. Thanks. 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

If you've made yourself conscious to someone in a past time, who reciprocally is able to have an effect on you, then an argument can be made for some form of 'time travel' that goes beyond mere 'movie-watching playback'.  

Bran did not make himself "conscious" to someone. His dad heard wind and leaves rustling. Bran in his physical body gets to experience everything in the weirnet. It does not mean in any way that he was present for it. Think of it as a VHS tape with smell and taste in addition to sight and sound. 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 To quote President Bill Clinton, 'that depends on what your definition of is is'..!

Cute, but Clinton was trying to cover the fact he was cheating on his wife while bran IS not time traveling. 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Perhaps we should wait and see what he does with 'Hodor' and then revisit our discussion!  GRRM is tickled by some strange plotlines, it must be said.  A while ago, while musing on Euron, I found this:

https://mossfilm.wordpress.com/2014/09/10/george-r-r-martins-nightflyers-film-review/

I am curious if the hodor reveal will be in the books. At this point the books and the show are so far apart in so many ways they are seperate stories. 

 

 

 

[cgrav]

It could be that Bran's third eye opening has a secondary effect on Jon via the "wolfnet". Jon's dream starts out in a pan-direwolf perspective, in which he shares a pack consciousness with all the direwolves and thereby also the one sibling who still has a deep connection to his wolf. When Bran senses Ghost, he also senses Jon and reaches out.

[Clegane'sPup]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

How does Theon hear his name in the 'common tongue' at all?  Who is speaking 'the common tongue'?  Bran is in the weirwood; he should not be able to speak using the common tongue.  So what's happening?

Interesting question.

Indeed why should Theon hear his name. Who is talking to him. Theon went to the heart tree in WF at least three times DwD. Theon seems to think it is the old gods. I think he is hearing a raven.

In A Prince ofWF:

Theon found himself wondering if he should say a prayer. Will the old gods hear me if I do? They were not his gods, had never been his gods. He was ironborn, a son of Pyke, his god was the Drowned God of the islands … but Winterfell was long leagues from the sea. It had been a lifetime since any god had heard him. He did not know who he was, or what he was, why he was still alive, why he had ever been born.

"Theon," a voice seemed to whisper.

His head snapped up. "Who said that?" All he could see were the trees and the fog that covered them. The voice had been as faint as rustling leaves, as cold as hate. A god's voice, or a ghost's.

In the Turncloak:

Snow was falling on the godswood too, melting when it touched the ground. Beneath the white-cloaked trees the earth had turned to mud. Tendrils of mist hung in the air like ghostly ribbons. Why did I come here? These are not my gods. This is not my place. The heart tree stood before him, a pale giant with a carved face and leaves like bloody hands.

A thin film of ice covered the surface of the pool beneath the weirwood. Theon sank to his knees beside it. "Please," he murmured through his broken teeth, "I never meant …" The words caught in his throat. "Save me," he finally managed. "Give me …" What? Strength? Courage? Mercy? Snow fell around him, pale and silent, keeping its own counsel. The only sound was a faint soft sobbing. Jeyne, he thought. It is her, sobbing in her bridal bed. Who else could it be? Gods do not weep. Or do they?

In A Ghost ofWF:

The night was windless, the snow drifting straight down out of a cold black sky, yet the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. "Theon," they seemed to whisper, "Theon."

The old gods, he thought. They know me. They know my name. I was Theon of House Greyjoy. I was a ward of Eddard Stark, a friend and brother to his children. "Please." He fell to his knees. "A sword, that's all I ask. Let me die as Theon, not as Reek." Tears trickled down his cheeks, impossibly warm. "I was ironborn. A son … a son of Pyke, of the islands."

A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness.

Then I get to the Theon WoW chapter where Stannis gets annoyed with the ravens. Which is comical.  I gotta go with it’s dem old gods acting up with their ravens not Bran.

 

 

[Kienn]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

It was never "sunny" in Jon's wolf dream.

This is why we can't have nice theories...

[Clegane'sPup]

10 minutes ago, Kienn said:

This is why we can't have nice theories...

Does that mean that people have to agree with every nut job theory that pops up on public discussion boards as it pertains to Martins ASOIAF.

[Kienn]

18 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Does that mean that people have to agree with every nut job theory that pops up on public discussion boards as it pertains to Martins ASOIAF.

No it means people should actually read things before agreeing or disagreeing.

[Clegane'sPup]

35 minutes ago, Kienn said:

No it means people should actually read things before agreeing or disagreeing.

I agree. Especially since Martin is supposedly the best fantasy writer since, who was that British guy? If Martin has a closed or open time loop in WoW you can whoop my behind. There ain’t no time travelling Bran.