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Why didn't Stannis personally command the naval fleet at blackwater...????


JWittoBeast

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Title says it all.

He's supposed to be the greatest naval commander in Westeros, even defeating the infamous Iron Fleet off of Fair Isle during their rebellion (IIRC they had more ships than Stannis too, so he was outnumbered aswell), and then landing his soldiers at Great Wyk.

 

So why the HELL did he let Imry Florent, who is a complete tool, command the naval forces? If you're going to use the excuse "Stannis might have commanded the land forces" then why didn't Stannis let Davos Seaworth command his ships?

I guess GRRM just needed an excuse for Stannis to lose, right?

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31 minutes ago, JWittoBeast said:

Title says it all.

He's supposed to be the greatest naval commander in Westeros, even defeating the infamous Iron Fleet off of Fair Isle during their rebellion (IIRC they had more ships than Stannis too, so he was outnumbered aswell), and then landing his soldiers at Great Wyk.

 

So why the HELL did he let Imry Florent, who is a complete tool, command the naval forces? If you're going to use the excuse "Stannis might have commanded the land forces" then why didn't Stannis let Davos Seaworth command his ships?

I guess GRRM just needed an excuse for Stannis to lose, right?

Stannis didn't trust most of his men. Aside from those truly loyal to him from the start, most of his men were either sellswords or turncloaks who had only come to him after Renly's death. Why should Stannis then jump onto a ship and say, "see you all at King's Landing! You better be there when I show up!"
Plus, if Stannis were on the boats during the battle, he would have fallen victim to Tyrion's wildfire and then his storyline would have ended in ACOK.

And as for Imry Florent being put in charge, yes, I agree that was stupid. Lord Velaryon should have been given command. He was loyal first, his family's got a history of brilliant admirals, and he's one of the most high-ranking men in Stannis' army.

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2 hours ago, James Steller said:

Stannis didn't trust most of his men. Aside from those truly loyal to him from the start, most of his men were either sellswords or turncloaks who had only come to him after Renly's death. Why should Stannis then jump onto a ship and say, "see you all at King's Landing! You better be there when I show up!"
Plus, if Stannis were on the boats during the battle, he would have fallen victim to Tyrion's wildfire and then his storyline would have ended in ACOK.

And as for Imry Florent being put in charge, yes, I agree that was stupid. Lord Velaryon should have been given command. He was loyal first, his family's got a history of brilliant admirals, and he's one of the most high-ranking men in Stannis' army.

 

For that matter, put Lord Estermont in charge of the land army. What better way to guarantee loyalty than having your own grand daddy as your land commander?

 

As for Lord Velaryon, that guy was a total asshat. Constantly threatening Stannis and being a general dickhead, I guess Stannis didn't mourn him when he went up in green flames.

 

2 hours ago, Net-Viper X said:

I'm betting that he put the Florent guy in charge to get his harpy wife to quit yammering at him. Isn't Stannis's wife a Florent?

 

That's also true, he could have put Axell or Alester Florent in charge of the land army as well, but Selsye is very subservient to Stannis, so I don't think she would be yammering at him or anything. Maybe Stannis got a little bit cocky and decided to give his brother-in-law command just for giggles.

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4 hours ago, JWittoBeast said:

 

For that matter, put Lord Estermont in charge of the land army. What better way to guarantee loyalty than having your own grand daddy as your land commander?

 

As for Lord Velaryon, that guy was a total asshat. Constantly threatening Stannis and being a general dickhead, I guess Stannis didn't mourn him when he went up in green flames.

 

 

That's also true, he could have put Axell or Alester Florent in charge of the land army as well, but Selsye is very subservient to Stannis, so I don't think she would be yammering at him or anything. Maybe Stannis got a little bit cocky and decided to give his brother-in-law command just for giggles.

Stannis' grand daddy, to use your words, sided with Renly. So did his own father-in-law, Alester. Why should Stannis reward either of those men?

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The naval action was one small part of the battle. Crucial, definately. It's a bit like the vanguard of a land battle. Unlike Robert, Stannis doesn't lead the Van. He recognises, like Tywin does, that a good leader stands back from the fray, commands the reserve, and sees how things go- committing troops when necessary. 

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10 hours ago, JWittoBeast said:

He's supposed to be the greatest naval commander in Westeros

Greatest commander*, no qualifier necessary. 

10 hours ago, JWittoBeast said:

So why the HELL did he let Imry Florent, who is a complete tool, command the naval forces?

It's not like it was a particularly difficult move, he probably didn't think he needed Davos. Though, of course, Davos would have been a better pic, not that it would have mattered much. 

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2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The naval action was one small part of the battle. Crucial, definately. It's a bit like the vanguard of a land battle. Unlike Robert, Stannis doesn't lead the Van. He recognises, like Tywin does, that a good leader stands back from the fray, commands the reserve, and sees how things go- committing troops when necessary. 

This.

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5 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Stannis would have probably done the exact same thing, most men would. 

No one anticipated that much wildfire employed in that way. 

 

Maybe so, but the chain was an obvious sign of a trap. Any commander with half a brain would have taken the chain towers before entering the bay.

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7 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Stannis would have probably done the exact same thing, most men would. 

No one anticipated that much wildfire employed in that way. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

Greatest commander*, no qualifier necessary. 

It's not like it was a particularly difficult move, he probably didn't think he needed Davos. Though, of course, Davos would have been a better pic, not that it would have mattered much. 

Nope, Davos noticed Imry made several crucial tactical blunders, such as not sending in scouts and putting Saan's sellsail ships at the back of Stannis' fleet, and Davos has no real experience with leading fleets, but Stannis did, so anything that Imry did wrong that Davos noticed, Stannis would have noticed twice as much.

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3 hours ago, JWittoBeast said:

 

Nope, Davos noticed Imry made several crucial tactical blunders, such as not sending in scouts and putting Saan's sellsail ships at the back of Stannis' fleet, and Davos has no real experience with leading fleets, but Stannis did, so anything that Imry did wrong that Davos noticed, Stannis would have noticed twice as much.

Sending scouts would be ridiculous, what would you be expecting them to find? The reader's knowledge of the wildfire is the only reason to send scouts. The fleet can see Joffrey's fleet, Stannis army can see the fleet, you'd send scout ships up the river against Joffrey's fleet and through the Red's Keep's gauntlet of fire and to achieve what? To get a closer look at the fleet? Not that they'd get close enough to see that the hulks were crammed with wildfire they'd probably just assume they're crammed with soldiers. Davos was being overly cautious, Imry was already delayed and they could see the enemy fleet, they saw everything they needed to know, if anything the chain boon would likely be used to cut the fleet in half and they'd still have the advantage against Joffrey's fleet. 

The only thing the scout ships would confirm is that there's a chain boon, then there's the option commit to the attack or don't and if Imry had called off the assault and delayed his crossing because there was a new tower with a chain boon at the river mouth and that alone Stannis would have smashed into him for being a fool. 

No scout ship is going to run the gauntlet against enemy warships to find wilfire unless it's from the perspective of the reader, knowing what's there and the threat it represents. Not that they'd ever get close enough to find out, Stannis army can see those ships as well, better than a scout ship would I'd dare, they've been staring at them for days, do you think they thought anything other that that they were crammed with soldiers?

In any other circumstance Imry would have done the right thing and in this circumstance, he'd basically need to have his scouts board a wilfire hulk and inspect it to have good enough information to warrant calling off the assault.

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