Why didn't Stannis personally command the naval fleet at blackwater...????

[sifth]

52 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

True, but hence them turning up in the nick of time rather than days earlier. 

 

Like I said, a bit too many Continent things seemed to happen to get a Lannister victor. I'm sorry, but the whole thing really needs me to suspend my disbelief a little. Stannis showing up at the Wall so quickly is another example of something that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, when you look at the time window.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

Like I said, a bit too many Continent things seemed to happen to get a Lannister victor. I'm sorry, but the whole thing really needs me to suspend my disbelief a little. Stannis showing up at the Wall so quickly is another example of something that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, when you look at the time window.

GRRM is purposely vague about time and space so that such considerations don't consume people. It's not at all far from the Trident to the Blackwater by my reckoning. 

[Sullen]

14 hours ago, John Doe said:

Quote? 

 

His ability as a commander is repeatedly implied, his supposed numerical superiority isn't. It sounds like he pulled a Salamis-like manouver at Fair Isle. 

World of Ice and Fire, Old Way and New Way.

The Redwyne Fleet and the Royal Fleet both are present and under the control of Stannis at Fair Isle, and the Redwyne Fleet by itself is larger than the Iron Fleet.

[John Doe]

18 minutes ago, Sullen said:

World of Ice and Fire, Old Way and New Way.

The Redwyne Fleet and the Royal Fleet both are present and under the control of Stannis at Fair Isle, and the Redwyne Fleet by itself is larger than the Iron Fleet.

His ability as an admiral is still noted often enough, he is without a doubt one of the best commanders of Westeros. 

[Sullen]

8 minutes ago, John Doe said:

His ability as an admiral is still noted often enough, he is without a doubt one of the best commanders of Westeros. 

Absolutely, I'd say he lost very few ships at Fair Isle, and managed to take out the Iron Fleet quickly.

Unless he made a gravely stupid decision there though, it would have been rather hard to lose considering his numerical superiority and the general quality of his ships.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Unless he made a gravely stupid decision there though, it would have been rather hard to lose considering his numerical superiority and the general quality of his ships.

I don't know about that. Auranne Waters points out that although drummunds are larger than the average Iron Islands longship, some of the Iron Fleet could be a match for them, and the Iron Islanders generally are better sailors. 

[Sullen]

Just now, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I don't know about that. Auranne Waters points out that although drummunds are larger than the average Iron Islands longship, some of the Iron Fleet could be a match for them, and the Iron Islanders generally are better sailors. 

Some of the Iron Fleet, and Aurane is talking only of the Royal Fleet here.

The Ironborn are vastly superiour sailors and more used to fighting on a deck though, so there is something to fear.

[Boarsbane]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

 

Like I said, a bit too many Continent things seemed to happen to get a Lannister victor. I'm sorry, but the whole thing really needs me to suspend my disbelief a little. Stannis showing up at the Wall so quickly is another example of something that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, when you look at the time window.

Stannis killing Renly with a shadowbaby and taking Storm's End so quickly should of already suspended any disbelief, it's a story after all not a hypothetical realistic telling of a war that never happened. 

[sifth]

5 hours ago, Boarsbane said:

Stannis killing Renly with a shadowbaby and taking Storm's End so quickly should of already suspended any disbelief, it's a story after all not a hypothetical realistic telling of a war that never happened. 

He didn't take Storms End very quickly though. Also we knew Mel had dark magic form the get go. It's when the crazy stuff that's not magic related happens that I start to roll my eyes a bit.

[Boarsbane]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

He didn't take Storms End very quickly though. Also we knew Mel had dark magic form the get go. It's when the crazy stuff that's not magic related happens that I start to roll my eyes a bit.

He took it quickly relative to how long it would of taken it to fall without magic, Stannis himself held out in it for a year and everyone was expecting it to hold out much longer than it did.

[GallowsKnight]

9 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

GRRM is purposely vague about time and space so that such considerations don't consume people. It's not at all far from the Trident to the Blackwater by my reckoning. 

It's not the distance from the Trident to the Blackwater, that's achievable it's the perfect eleventh hour timing to hit Stannis whose army is split on two banks and committed by complete surprise

Had Stannis' boats been delayed by another day, Stannis would have a full army in the field intact and be able to give battle under better conditions or withdraw. Or if they arrive a day late, Stannis would have his men behind the walls of Kingslanding making it harder to outright surprise them.

And it has been raised that had the storms not delayed Stannis he would have 2 weeks earlier taken it.

5 minutes ago, Boarsbane said:

He took it quickly relative to how long it would of taken it to fall without magic, Stannis himself held out in it for a year and everyone was expecting it to hold out much longer than it did.

But that's Sifth's point. You can't apply realism to magic inside the universe, but you can to conventional/non-magical things.

[JWittoBeast]

On 24/08/2016 at 1:41 PM, Sullen said:

Stannis had waaaay more ships than the Iron Fleet at Fair Isle.

Not that the victory isn't impressive, but to act as if the odds were against him is disingenuous. 

 

Really? Source? 

To be honest, I don't really have a source either, but I am really interested in the Iron Fleet vs Royal Fleet battle.

[GallowsKnight]

34 minutes ago, JWittoBeast said:

Really? Source? 

To be honest, I don't really have a source either, but I am really interested in the Iron Fleet vs Royal Fleet battle.

I don't know if there is a source (I can't remember what the WOIAF says about it).

It's something that comes up with a generally anti-Stannis vibe. Even if he had naval superiority, I tend to think Fair Isle is regarded so well in universal because of how he managed to so resoundingly beat the Iron Fleet. Taking probably very few causalities and letting no Ironborn ships escape.

It established complete naval superiority to the Crown and allowed them to capture each Island.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

It's not the distance from the Trident to the Blackwater, that's achievable it's the perfect eleventh hour timing to hit Stannis whose army is split on two banks and committed by complete surprise

That was achieved by Tywin and co taking advantage of Stannis's lack of scouts wasn't it? You have to imagine that Tywin saw how the battle was playing out, and timed it so that his attack struck when it would have the most devastating impact. 

[GallowsKnight]

18 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

That was achieved by Tywin and co taking advantage of Stannis's lack of scouts wasn't it? You have to imagine that Tywin saw how the battle was playing out, and timed it so that his attack struck when it would have the most devastating impact. 

Very true, the Clansmen taking out the scouts makes the surprise part that smallest part more believable. I still have issues with the timing.

Your suggestion that Tywin was hiding waiting for the right moment letting Tyrion fight Stannis, while sounding like a very Tywin like thing to do, starts to make less sense if you think about it. There's no way killing some scouts lets you hide an army of 80,000 men from being detected for more than a little time. It's just too huge. Stannis was camped there for 2 weeks awaiting his ships to arrive. It's not like the show where Stannis arrives and immediately attacks.

But as I said before it was necessary for the plot to advance.

[Sullen]

15 hours ago, JWittoBeast said:

 

Really? Source? 

To be honest, I don't really have a source either, but I am really interested in the Iron Fleet vs Royal Fleet battle.

World of Ice and Fire, Old Way and New Way chapter.

Redwyne and his fleet were at the battle, so it was the Iron Fleet vs. the Redwyne Fleet (which by itself outnumbers the Iron Fleet considerably) and the Royal Fleet (which is arguably as strong as the Iron Fleet or stronger)

15 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

It's something that comes up with a generally anti-Stannis vibe. Even if he had naval superiority, I tend to think Fair Isle is regarded so well in universal because of how he managed to so resoundingly beat the Iron Fleet. Taking probably very few causalities and letting no Ironborn ships escape.

What do you mean anti-Stannis sentiment? I did concede that it was impressive, simply that it wasn't the against-all-odds impossible-to-achieve victory that a lot of people make it to be. It was the deciding encounter in the rebellion after all, and despite the odds of defeat being extremely low, should Stannis have bungled up the war would have been lost. 

[JWittoBeast]

4 hours ago, Sullen said:

World of Ice and Fire, Old Way and New Way chapter.

Redwyne and his fleet were at the battle, so it was the Iron Fleet vs. the Redwyne Fleet (which by itself outnumbers the Iron Fleet considerably) and the Royal Fleet (which is arguably as strong as the Iron Fleet or stronger)

What do you mean anti-Stannis sentiment? I did concede that it was impressive, simply that it wasn't the against-all-odds impossible-to-achieve victory that a lot of people make it to be. It was the deciding encounter in the rebellion after all, and despite the odds of defeat being extremely low, should Stannis have bungled up the war would have been lost. 

That doesn't mean much, because the Iron Fleet could have been much larger back then, and after the rebellion there were repatriations to limit it's size, and the Royal Fleet of the crownlands isn't that big.

Plus, I have doubts that the entire fleets of both the Redwynes and the Royal fleet were deployed in this battle, especially the latter.

[GallowsKnight]

5 hours ago, Sullen said:

What do you mean anti-Stannis sentiment? I did concede that it was impressive, simply that it wasn't the against-all-odds impossible-to-achieve victory that a lot of people make it to be. It was the deciding encounter in the rebellion after all, and despite the odds of defeat being extremely low, should Stannis have bungled up the war would have been lost. 

Thank you for your concession. That wasn't entirely directed at you. There's just a trend I notice sometimes of minimising Stannis' victories. "Anyone could have held Storm's End for a year, the wall do the work", "Anyone could have beaten the ironborn with that many ships" and of course "Anyone with knights could have beaten the Wildlings they're poorly trained savages".

Like I get it. People don't like Stannis. He's a divisive character. But you can dislike someone and acknowledge their talents.

[Trigger Warning]

To be honest I  think those criticisms aren't necessarily diminishing Stannis' accomplishments.

I think it's more reactionary to the trend of aggrandising Stannis which is very prominent on the forum, all of his achievements tend to paint a picture of a solid commander but they're often used by Stannis fans to make him out to basically be a military genius. 

I think it's less that "anyone" could have held Storm's End and that not only Stannis could hold Storm's End, it doesn't diminish Stannis' accomplishment of doing it but it doesn't make him singularly brilliant for doing it either which people often make him out to be and a victory will be celebrated as that regardless of the odds, Stannis outnumbering the enemy at Fair Isle doesn't make it any less of a huge and decisive victory but I think people assume that Stannis was outnumbered because it's a great victory, there's a trend of people thinking a victory is only great if it's somehow against the odds which is just wrong. 

Stannis is one of my favourite characters but I think the fandom fanboys him more than any other character, I think he's good, I just don't think he's some sort of military super jesus.