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Counterpoint: It was smart of Balon to attack Robb


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Most people assume that Balon’s primary goal was independence, and thus his rejection of the only other independence faction is idiocy.  I would offer that his primary goal was not independence, but rather the return to the old way.  Independence is obviously requisite for a return to the old way, but if he wanted merely independence there were better ways to get it.

The old way is the way or reaving.  Balon wants to see the ironborn prowling the coasts and raiding the mainland as they did in the old days.  But in order for this to become a reality, he needs a lot more than independence.  For a return to the old way Balon needs to see Westeros divided.  The Ironborn will never be able to prevail if the other six kingdoms are united, for they will always be able to overpower him.  Therefore, Balon’s strategic objective is to keep Westeros divided.

Strategically, the two biggest threats to Balon are the Royal and Redwyne fleets.  Those are the only two fleets capable of challenging the Iron Fleet and threatening the Iron Islands themselves.  He definitely needs to keep them divided, and ideally he wants to keep them focused on something besides the Iron Islands.

Let’s look at the factions vying for control in the beginning of the WotFK.  You have Renly controlling the Reach and the Stormlands (including the Redwyne Fleet), Stannis controlling the Royal Fleet, Robb controlling the North and the Riverlands, and Tywin controlling the Westerlands and the Crownlands.  Dorne and the Vale are sitting it out and can be disregarded.

Robb wants Balon to attack the Westerlands while he confronts Tywin in the Riverlands/Crownlands.  So what would happen if he did?  The best case scenario is that he is successful.  Casterly Rock falls and Tywin is defeated.  But then what?  In all likelihood, Renly will take the Iron Throne.  He’s not going to let the Ironborn hold the Westerlands, and the Ironborn won’t be able to defend them.  Their strength is at sea, not in the mountains.  With the power of the Reach and the Stormlands he would drive them off the continent.  Even if Robb joined his forces to Balon’s in defense of the Westerlands, it is doubtful that they would prevail.  Both levies would have been depleted in the war against Tywin.

But more importantly, Tywin being defeated brings Westeros one step closer to unification.  With Tywin out of the way, Renly is going to look towards either Robb or Balon to bring them back in line.  As long as someone else is on the Iron Throne, Renly will always be looking towards that faction as his primary opponent.

So if he’s not going to attack Tywin, what are his other options?  He could attack Renly, but why provoke the Redwyne Fleet if he doesn’t have to?  Renly is focused on Tywin, so there’s no reason to distract him from that.  Stannis is too far away, and besides, has the Royal Fleet.  Again, no reason to provoke that yet.  He could also just do nothing.  But if he does that, Robb will keep up the pressure on Tywin, allowing Renly to come from behind and seize the Iron Throne.  If he wants Tywin to stay in the war, he needs to prevent that.

 So that just leaves Robb.

How does attacking Robb help keep Westeros disjointed?  First, it gives Tywin breathing room.  With the loss of the North, Robb is forced to retreat from the Westerlands and Riverlands.  This gives Tywin the flexibility to try and prevent Renly from taking the Iron Throne.  Even better, he does it in a way that leaves Robb’s army intact and stuck in the Riverlands, where it will continue to be a distraction to Tywin and Renly.

And yes, the land is good too.  It is easily accessible by sea and has plenty of timber for ships.  It may not be the most fertile, but what does Balon care?  He doesn’t sow.  It’s also not valuable enough for anyone in the South to contest.  The Westerlands are too rich and valuable for the Iron Throne to ever let him keep.  But no one besides Robb is going to go to war over the Stony Shore.

The longer the war goes on, the weaker everyone becomes.  His plan keeps most of his men out of direct combat, and keeps his home base safe.  All he has to do is wait for the others to weaken themselves enough that he can strike without fear.  As we see in ACOK, Stannis loses the Royal Fleet on Blackwater.  That's a huge advantage for Balon!  Not only is one of the major threats to him gone, but now it's impossible for it to join with the Redwyne fleet.  So now, even if the Redwyne fleet turns towards him, at least it will be a more even battle between the Iron Fleet and the Redwyne Fleet.

So what went wrong?  Exactly what he didn’t want to have happen: one of the factions was eliminated.  Renly was assassinated and the Reach joined Tywin. Now instead of a fragmented Westeros he had to deal with a largely united one.  But part of his plan is still working; Tywin is much more concerned with Robb and Stannis than he is Balon.  Unfortunately, with Renly defeated and Stannis' host broken, Tywin no longer has any incentive to make a deal recognizing Balon's control of the North.  He also didn't plan on Theon going rogue and seizing Winterfell, crippling Robb even more thoroughly than was intended.  However, if Robb were still a force and the Reach still with Renly, I bet Tywin would have more carefully considered Balon's offer of alliance.

Tl:dr, Balon wants a disjointed Westeros.  Helping Robb defeat Tywin would just put Renly on the throne, which would lead to a united Westeros.  Attacking Robb gives Tywin breathing room and keeps all the factions in the war, leaving each Kingdom individually vulnerable.

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If Renly lived, he would easily defeat Tywin. Renly was rather weak strategist but with sheer force of reach and stormlands (considering stannis defeated), he would have little problem with Lannisters. Renly would also be willing to negotiate with robb stark as stated in clash of kings.

For me, biggest balon's failure was that he started war before gaining alliance with any faction. If he negotiated with Tywin first, he would have bigger chances to gain independence(at least for short period of time), than by attacking blindly robb and thinking that crown would recognize him as king of iron isles and the north.

And even before theon seized winterfell and attracted Robb's attention, Balon had not enough men to seize north. Houses like Ryswell, Dustin and Manderly still had enough men to fight with ironborn, and even though maybe they hadn't enough men to throw back ironborn invaders into the sea, they still could hold north until robb would come back.

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Poor attempt at a contrarian argument.

What the Lannisters and Tyrells have in common, is that they were both fighting for a united Westeros, with a King on the Iron Throne. Eventually one would win, and Balon's dream of a divided Westeros would be dust. The ONLY way to achieve a permanently divided Westeros, was to join with the North and the Riverlands, who were fighting to achieve that, with the expectation that the Vale would join with the two kingdoms due to family ties to both Robb and Edmure, through House Tully.

And that Dorne would then relish the opportunity to resume its ancient enmity with the Reach and the Stormlands.

Only then would the Iron Throne be brought down, and Westeros divided once again. Any choice other than the above would result in the inevitable reunification of Westeros and subjugation of the Iron Isles once again.

Balon's choice was the wrong one.

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1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

What the Lannisters and Tyrells have in common, is that they were both fighting for a united Westeros, with a King on the Iron Throne. Eventually one would win, and Balon's dream of a divided Westeros would be dust. The ONLY way to achieve a permanently divided Westeros, was to join with the North and the Riverlands, who were fighting to achieve that, with the expectation that the Vale would join with the two kingdoms due to family ties to both Robb and Edmure, through House Tully.

Good point. Sooner or later Balon would end as Dalton the Red Kraken. No country will be divided for eternity. It may take years or even decades, but Seven Kingdoms would unite and would take bloody revenge on ironborn.

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5 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

If Renly lived, he would easily defeat Tywin. Renly was rather weak strategist but with sheer force of reach and stormlands (considering stannis defeated), he would have little problem with Lannisters. Renly would also be willing to negotiate with robb stark as stated in clash of kings.

For me, biggest balon's failure was that he started war before gaining alliance with any faction. If he negotiated with Tywin first, he would have bigger chances to gain independence(at least for short period of time), than by attacking blindly robb and thinking that crown would recognize him as king of iron isles and the north.

And even before theon seized winterfell and attracted Robb's attention, Balon had not enough men to seize north. Houses like Ryswell, Dustin and Manderly still had enough men to fight with ironborn, and even though maybe they hadn't enough men to throw back ironborn invaders into the sea, they still could hold north until robb would come back.

Renly might be willing to negotiate with Robb, but it's not at all clear that Robb was willing to negotiate with Renly.  But that is a side point.

Balon doesn't just want independence.  He wants a free license to raid up and down the coast of Westeros.  No alliance is going to give him that, he has to take it by making sure everyone is weak and divided.

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Poor attempt at a contrarian argument.

What the Lannisters and Tyrells have in common, is that they were both fighting for a united Westeros, with a King on the Iron Throne. Eventually one would win, and Balon's dream of a divided Westeros would be dust. The ONLY way to achieve a permanently divided Westeros, was to join with the North and the Riverlands, who were fighting to achieve that, with the expectation that the Vale would join with the two kingdoms due to family ties to both Robb and Edmure, through House Tully.

And that Dorne would then relish the opportunity to resume its ancient enmity with the Reach and the Stormlands.

Only then would the Iron Throne be brought down, and Westeros divided once again. Any choice other than the above would result in the inevitable reunification of Westeros and subjugation of the Iron Isles once again.

Balon's choice was the wrong one.

Joining with the North and Riverlands wouldn't get him that, even more so if the Vale joined them.  At best that would create two powerblocks, with the North, Vale, and Riverlands on one side and the Westerlands, Stormlands, and the Reach on the other.  If he allied with Robb, do you think he would get free license to raid the southern alliance?  Doubtful, and even if he did, he'd still have to contend with the Redwyne Fleet which would turn its full attention to him.

Again, he his objective is the freedom to raid anywhere and anytime.  In order to do this, he needs a fragmented westeros.  A strong North/Riverlands/Vale is not fragmented.  He wants seven kingdoms, not two or three.

2 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Good point. Sooner or later Balon would end as Dalton the Red Kraken. No country will be divided for eternity. It may take years or even decades, but Seven Kingdoms would unite and would take bloody revenge on ironborn.

Except that Westeros isn't a country, it's seven kingdoms. 

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1 minute ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Renly might be willing to negotiate with Robb, but it's not at all clear that Robb was willing to negotiate with Renly.  But that is a side point.

Balon doesn't just want independence.  He wants a free license to raid up and down the coast of Westeros.  No alliance is going to give him that, he has to take it by making sure everyone is weak and divided.

Robb didn't wanted to negotiate only with lannisters. He had no prejudices against renly.

Being hostile against everyone doesn't give it either. It only makes other more likely to unite against you.

3 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Except that Westeros isn't a country, it's seven kingdoms. 

It is one country with one king. Lord Paramounts are quite independent from king but they are still oblieged to obey him. Times of free raiding fell with Aegon's conquest. 

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1 minute ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Robb didn't wanted to negotiate only with lannisters. He had no prejudices against renly.

Being hostile against everyone doesn't give it either. It only makes other more likely to unite against you.

It is one country with one king. Lord Paramounts are quite independent from king but they are still oblieged to obey him. Times of free raiding fell with Aegon's conquest. 

Robb wanted independence.  I'm not so sure he would have accepted Renly's proposal of merely calling himself King while still swearing fealty to the Iron Throne.

As for Westeros as a Kingdom, it was united by dragons, and as the Greatjon said, the dragons are all gone.  The Iron Islands, The North, and the Riverlands are all interested in being free of the Iron Throne, while Dorne and the Vale felt comfortable ignoring the King's call to arms.  If the war continued on, I could see a growing desire for independence in both realms. 

Balon clearly wants to bring the time of free raiding back.

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8 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Robb wanted independence.  I'm not so sure he would have accepted Renly's proposal of merely calling himself King while still swearing fealty to the Iron Throne.

As for Westeros as a Kingdom, it was united by dragons, and as the Greatjon said, the dragons are all gone.  The Iron Islands, The North, and the Riverlands are all interested in being free of the Iron Throne, while Dorne and the Vale felt comfortable ignoring the King's call to arms.  If the war continued on, I could see a growing desire for independence in both realms. 

Balon clearly wants to bring the time of free raiding back.

Robb's main objective was to avenge his father. Independence was only his second goal.

If Robb's would lose his war, Vale and Dorne would have no point to fight with Iron Throne, specially considering that Doran is aware that he rules over weakest nation and Lysa being actual puppet of Littlefinger.

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Balon wouldn't have profited much from reaving the Westerlands. Sure, he might have gained more plunder, but he wouldn't have gained any lands. The Westerlands are too important for any southern king to disregard and the Ironborn had suffered in the past for provoking the Lannisters. On the other hand, the North had no fleet at all, let alone on the western shore. It was completely unprotected. It wasn't as rich as the Westerlands, but he's used to that by living on the Iron Islands. The North does have timber for ships and people for thralls, it offers new lands and isn't that important to anyone in the south. As the op said, nobody would have went to war over the Stoney Shore, it's quite possible the Iron Islands would have been able to keep some of the gains, even if it's only little, it's better than nothing.

Besides the North was spent, with the northern army miles upon miles away from home. Compare that to Tywin who was really not far away from the Westerlands. 

 

And a Renly win wouldn't have been bad for Balon at all, as he would have been able to keep their title as king. 

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3 hours ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Most people assume that Balon’s primary goal was independence, and thus his rejection of the only other independence faction is idiocy.  I would offer that his primary goal was not independence, but rather the return to the old way.  Independence is obviously requisite for a return to the old way, but if he wanted merely independence there were better ways to get it......

 

Some interesting ideas, Balon certainly wanted a long war which could explain why he invaded the North with only 6-7 thousand men holding back most of his strength.

I dont see how invading the North directly weakened Robb in the Riverlands though.

The original plan of just taking Deepwood Motte, Moat Caillin and raiding the Stoney Shore would not really impact Robbs army in the Riverlands. At the point of the Ironborn invasion Robb still had a combined strength close to 30000 men in the south.

The only benefit Balon could hope for seems to be that by taking Moat Caillin Robb would be more willing to remain in the Riverlands and continue the war against Tywin, than to throw his army against Moat Caillin and withdraw to the North.

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1 minute ago, fenr1s said:

Some interesting ideas, Balon certainly wanted a long war which could explain why he invaded the North with only 6-7 thousand men holding back most of his strength.

I dont see how invading the North directly weakened Robb in the Riverlands though.

The original plan of just taking Deepwood Motte, Moat Caillin and raiding the Stoney Shore would not really impact Robbs army in the Riverlands. At the point of the Ironborn invasion Robb still had a combined strength close to 30000 men in the south.

The only benefit Balon could hope for seems to be that by taking Moat Caillin Robb would be more willing to remain in the Riverlands and continue the war against Tywin, than to throw his army against Moat Caillin and withdraw to the North.

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Exactly, it wouldn't.  Balon didn't want to weaken Robb's army, he wanted it strong and intact so it would remain as a threat against Tywin and Renly.

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20 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Exactly, it wouldn't.  Balon didn't want to weaken Robb's army, he wanted it strong and intact so it would remain as a threat against Tywin and Renly.

We have no evidence in books that he wanted this. If he wanted only to carve piece of north he would act as asha and try to negotiate.

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4 hours ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Most people assume that Balon’s primary goal was independence, and thus his rejection of the only other independence faction is idiocy.  I would offer that his primary goal was not independence, but rather the return to the old way.  Independence is obviously requisite for a return to the old way, but if he wanted merely independence there were better ways to get it.

The old way is the way or reaving.  Balon wants to see the ironborn prowling the coasts and raiding the mainland as they did in the old days.  But in order for this to become a reality, he needs a lot more than independence.  For a return to the old way Balon needs to see Westeros divided.  The Ironborn will never be able to prevail if the other six kingdoms are united, for they will always be able to overpower him.  Therefore, Balon’s strategic objective is to keep Westeros divided.

Strategically, the two biggest threats to Balon are the Royal and Redwyne fleets.  Those are the only two fleets capable of challenging the Iron Fleet and threatening the Iron Islands themselves.  He definitely needs to keep them divided, and ideally he wants to keep them focused on something besides the Iron Islands.

Let’s look at the factions vying for control in the beginning of the WotFK.  You have Renly controlling the Reach and the Stormlands (including the Redwyne Fleet), Stannis controlling the Royal Fleet, Robb controlling the North and the Riverlands, and Tywin controlling the Westerlands and the Crownlands.  Dorne and the Vale are sitting it out and can be disregarded.

Robb wants Balon to attack the Westerlands while he confronts Tywin in the Riverlands/Crownlands.  So what would happen if he did?  The best case scenario is that he is successful.  Casterly Rock falls and Tywin is defeated.  But then what?  In all likelihood, Renly will take the Iron Throne.  He’s not going to let the Ironborn hold the Westerlands, and the Ironborn won’t be able to defend them.  Their strength is at sea, not in the mountains.  With the power of the Reach and the Stormlands he would drive them off the continent.  Even if Robb joined his forces to Balon’s in defense of the Westerlands, it is doubtful that they would prevail.  Both levies would have been depleted in the war against Tywin.

But more importantly, Tywin being defeated brings Westeros one step closer to unification.  With Tywin out of the way, Renly is going to look towards either Robb or Balon to bring them back in line.  As long as someone else is on the Iron Throne, Renly will always be looking towards that faction as his primary opponent.

So if he’s not going to attack Tywin, what are his other options?  He could attack Renly, but why provoke the Redwyne Fleet if he doesn’t have to?  Renly is focused on Tywin, so there’s no reason to distract him from that.  Stannis is too far away, and besides, has the Royal Fleet.  Again, no reason to provoke that yet.  He could also just do nothing.  But if he does that, Robb will keep up the pressure on Tywin, allowing Renly to come from behind and seize the Iron Throne.  If he wants Tywin to stay in the war, he needs to prevent that.

 So that just leaves Robb.

How does attacking Robb help keep Westeros disjointed?  First, it gives Tywin breathing room.  With the loss of the North, Robb is forced to retreat from the Westerlands and Riverlands.  This gives Tywin the flexibility to try and prevent Renly from taking the Iron Throne.  Even better, he does it in a way that leaves Robb’s army intact and stuck in the Riverlands, where it will continue to be a distraction to Tywin and Renly.

And yes, the land is good too.  It is easily accessible by sea and has plenty of timber for ships.  It may not be the most fertile, but what does Balon care?  He doesn’t sow.  It’s also not valuable enough for anyone in the South to contest.  The Westerlands are too rich and valuable for the Iron Throne to ever let him keep.  But no one besides Robb is going to go to war over the Stony Shore.

The longer the war goes on, the weaker everyone becomes.  His plan keeps most of his men out of direct combat, and keeps his home base safe.  All he has to do is wait for the others to weaken themselves enough that he can strike without fear.  As we see in ACOK, Stannis loses the Royal Fleet on Blackwater.  That's a huge advantage for Balon!  Not only is one of the major threats to him gone, but now it's impossible for it to join with the Redwyne fleet.  So now, even if the Redwyne fleet turns towards him, at least it will be a more even battle between the Iron Fleet and the Redwyne Fleet.

So what went wrong?  Exactly what he didn’t want to have happen: one of the factions was eliminated.  Renly was assassinated and the Reach joined Tywin. Now instead of a fragmented Westeros he had to deal with a largely united one.  But part of his plan is still working; Tywin is much more concerned with Robb and Stannis than he is Balon.  Unfortunately, with Renly defeated and Stannis' host broken, Tywin no longer has any incentive to make a deal recognizing Balon's control of the North.  He also didn't plan on Theon going rogue and seizing Winterfell, crippling Robb even more thoroughly than was intended.  However, if Robb were still a force and the Reach still with Renly, I bet Tywin would have more carefully considered Balon's offer of alliance.

Tl:dr, Balon wants a disjointed Westeros.  Helping Robb defeat Tywin would just put Renly on the throne, which would lead to a united Westeros.  Attacking Robb gives Tywin breathing room and keeps all the factions in the war, leaving each Kingdom individually vulnerable.

Some nice ideas, but I have to disagree on a couple of points.

If Balon is eager to see the return of the old way, he is presumably planning for this long term. But the war can't possibly go on forever; eventually someone has to win and whoever does will do one of two things: establish a new realm of just a handful of kingdoms, or resume control of all seven kingdoms as high king. Of the five kings who started the war, Renly, Stannis and Joffrey all supported the latter option. Balon and Robb support the former.

"Breathing room" is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Any king capable of uniting the continent will always have more ships, more men and more money than the iron islands, so in the long term, Robb is the only sensible choice. Admittedly, he's an all or nothing choice, but that's better than a couple of years plundering the tough land of the North before being smashed once again by the winning faction. 

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16 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

We have no evidence in books that he wanted this. If he wanted only to carve piece of north he would act as asha and try to negotiate.

Where are you getting the idea that he only wanted to carve a piece of the north?  That's not a point this thread is making at all.

16 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

Some nice ideas, but I have to disagree on a couple of points.

If Balon is eager to see the return of the old way, he is presumably planning for this long term. But the war can't possibly go on forever; eventually someone has to win and whoever does will do one of two things: establish a new realm of just a handful of kingdoms, or resume control of all seven kingdoms as high king. Of the five kings who started the war, Renly, Stannis and Joffrey all supported the latter option. Balon and Robb support the former.

"Breathing room" is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Any king capable of uniting the continent will always have more ships, more men and more money than the iron islands, so in the long term, Robb is the only sensible choice. Admittedly, he's an all or nothing choice, but that's better than a couple of years plundering the tough land of the North before being smashed once again by the winning faction. 

Balon wants to create a situation where nobody wins.  The longer the war goes on, the more likely it is that the social structure of Westeros collapses.  Especially since winter is coming; if there is no unified kingdom before winter hits, then by the time it ends huge swaths will have been defacto independent for years and that much harder to bring in line.

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3 hours ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Where are you getting the idea that he only wanted to carve a piece of the north?  That's not a point this thread is making at all.

He couldn't get whole north by this tactic. Northerners were capable to defend themselves, and they are better prepared for harsh northern winter than ironborn.

3 hours ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said:

Balon wants to create a situation where nobody wins.  The longer the war goes on, the more likely it is that the social structure of Westeros collapses.  Especially since winter is coming; if there is no unified kingdom before winter hits, then by the time it ends huge swaths will have been defacto independent for years and that much harder to bring in line.

Social structure can't collapse with one king on the throne. And winter last only few years. After it ends, king on the iron throne could simply declare war against balon. Similar situation happened to Red Kraken.

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20 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

We have no evidence in books that he wanted this. If he wanted only to carve piece of north he would act as asha and try to negotiate.

He actually did try to negotiate, with Tywin.

Mace and the Reach lords were all in favour of giving him the land.

 

EDIT: Attacking the North was smart, crowning himself was stupid, as per the Reader's words.

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Attacking the North is smart if the goal is to screw over the North (not necessarily a bad strategic objective) and if you intend to reap the rewards for serving the Iron Thrones interests. Balon succeeds at the former regardless, but the second is where things start to look stupid. Balon declaring himself king makes him an enemy of at least Stannis, and Tywin seems highly unlikely to allow the Iron islands to secede considering the threat they pose as a naval force to Lannister holdings and the realm as a whole once they get bored of the North or driven out; the main reason why the Lannister bloc doesn't target the Iron Islands is because they're not worth the time at that point of the war.

Balon believes that he can both resist an attempt to bring the Iron Islands to heel later (or at least be not worth the struggle) and not face disastrous repercussions in the North as time goes on. But taking the North is almost certainly a logistical impossibility for the Iron Born. As others have noted, they may be able to hold a beachhead or slice a piece off the North, but that's it; the North's too big for only twenty thousand men to hold, both because of how geographically large it is and because even a North deprived of most of it's people still roughly equals the Iron Born occupation force. The diplomatic tactics required to hold the ground also run counter to Balon's fundamentalist interpretation of the Drowned God's teachings: House Hoare managed to hold greenland by allying with other factions in Westeros for at least short term gain.

If his goal is eventual Iron Born long term autonomy and a Westeros he can attack, than he needs to pull a Bismarck and arrange a breakdown in the Iron Throne's feudal hierarchy; centralized authority can crush him too easily, and sometimes long term expansion requires short term diplomacy. So he should have either made a deal with the Iron Throne and then started attacking his enemies so he can build strength for an inevitable successive war, or backed another faction as co-belligerents (if he wants to eventually be free) and play the other kings off each other.

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1 hour ago, Sullen said:

He actually did try to negotiate, with Tywin.

Mace and the Reach lords were all in favour of giving him the land.

Yes, but long time after declaring war on Robb. At that point he had nothing to offer Tywin besides attacking north what he was already doing.

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17 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

Yes, but long time after declaring war on Robb. At that point he had nothing to offer Tywin besides attacking north what he was already doing.

He could offer fealty and peace for being allowed to keep the coast he conquered.

He gains massive territorial gains, the Realm is back in peace, and the Ironborn gain a source of lumber and (more) arable land.

That's pretty much what the Reader said they should have done in AFFC, problem is Tywin doesn't help taking care of Robb at all when Balon starts negotiations, as he already has the Red Wedding planned.

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