Do you believe Game of Thrones is the best TV show ever?

[Meera of Tarth]

3 hours ago, TheKitttenGuard said:

Alright, it bother you I get it.  Arguing that an Elderly woman make thousands of miles journey is getting preposterous. 

I do not see a problem with Varys returning.  Tyrion+Dany could of be well after Varys littlebirds came back with word of meet up.  It could of also included where to meet up for the fleets to come.  I am alright with these and do not need more time for it.  I will be more pleased if they have solid scene next season then a throw away hello scene.

I do not get hung up on journey timeline for in the end everyone shows up when they intend to be and at the moment they are to be. I am pleased the story to be moving along.

 I am ok thinking when Sam and Gilly showed at the Citadel is sometime before other events from the episode.  

With Sam and Gilly it was well done. I think the main problem was featuring Varys in Dorne and in Essos in the same episode.

I think that Tyrion receiving Varys' news about support from the other women would have been more effective and the final scene would have been better.

I agree Olenna is old to travel so long but why would Varys travel 3 times in a few episodes? Essos to Westeros is supposed to be long (it took Dany 6 seasons to leave) so these things are a bit out of nowhere. I felt it was poorly done.

I suppose many people don't care, but I did and many other (there was a long thread about it, people discussing whether they have met Varys in Lys and not in Slavers Bay, etc....).

But it's fine, everyone has their own opinion.

[Dragon in the North]

44 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Uhh, this is exactly what we did get.

No, what we got was a compelling story with a rich narrative, complex characters, great writing, breath-taking cinematography, and amazing directing that has captivated audiences around the world. It's received cult status, critical acclaim, high ratings, and record breaking emmy wins. The show you're thinking of would have been cancelled after one season.

[Darkstream]

4 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

No, what we got was a compelling story with a rich narrative, complex characters, great writing, breath-taking cinematography, and amazing directing that has captivated audiences around the world. It's received cult status, critical acclaim, high ratings, and record breaking emmy wins. The show you're thinking of would have been cancelled after one season.

No, what I was referring to was the approach that d$d took after the Red Wedding. If d$d had taken this approach to the series in season one, it would have been cancelled. 

As for the bolded, that was all GRRM, to attribute any of that to d$d is quite laughable.

And like I alluded to up thread, if you think the critics and the Emmys can be used to judge the quality of a program, and are not heavily influenced by politics and $, well then, I have a beautiful palace for sale, right in the heart of old Valyria that I think you might be interested in.

[NutBurz]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

Uhh, this is exactly what we did get

If this had been what we got, the "North Remembers" part of the story would be the mess that many fans wish it was, with the series trying to presents us at least five new characters (and since it´s GoT, they would try to give them depth, and since they would have like 7 episodes to do so while still telling the story, they would fail) whose only function, plot-wise, is to save the Starks without it being ridiculously farfecthed (which they would probably fail again).

[Dragon in the North]

2 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

No, what I was referring to was the approach that d$d took after the Red Wedding. If d$d had taken this approach to the series in season one, it would have been cancelled. 

We're way past the Red Wedding, and ratings have only gone up.

 

3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

As for the bolded, that was all GRRM, to attribute any of that to d$d is quite laughable.

It was all GRRM, now D&D have taken control of the story, and it's still compelling. 

 

4 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

And like I alluded to up thread, if you think the critics and the Emmys can be used to judge the quality of a program, and are not heavily influenced by politics and $, well then, I have a beautiful palace for sale, right in the heart of old Valyria that I think you might be interested in.

You're conspiracy theories are amusing, but I think it's much more likely that they simply like the show. Hell, millions of people do. If shows can buy critical acclaim, then they would all do it.

[NutBurz]

4 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

and ratings have only gone up.

You don´t get it, for him, the more people like it, the worst the show. Most people must be less smart than he is, or less of a fan, so obviously most people would like something of an inferior quality.

[Darkstream]

32 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

If this had been what we got, the "North Remembers" part of the story would be the mess that many fans wish it was, with the series trying to presents us at least five new characters (and since it´s GoT, they would try to give them depth, and since they would have like 7 episodes to do so while still telling the story, they would fail) whose only function, plot-wise, is to save the Starks without it being ridiculously farfecthed (which they would probably fail again).

Ah right, let me make my statement more accurate.

Some hack could have just went scene for scene from the book without accounting for the effect of the onscreen translation, and it could have been the most meandering mess ever 

There, that's exactly what we got.

You seem to be under the impression that the northern plot wasn't a ridiculously incoherent, non sensical, far fetched mess.

[Darkstream]

43 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

We're way past the Red Wedding, and ratings have only gone up.

I would suggest that you take a look at the ratings for shows like Jersey shore and the Kardahia-whatevers, I suppose those are quality shows that can be considered some of the best ever as well?

47 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

 

It was all GRRM, now D&D have taken control of the story, and it's still compelling. 

Well that would be where our opinions seem to greatly differ.

49 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:You're conspiracy theories are amusing, but I think it's much more likely that they simply like the show. Hell, millions of people do. If shows can buy critical acclaim, then they would all do it.

Well they're not my conspiracy theorys, when the former head of HBO, who's job entailed dealing with this sort of thing states that this is the case,  I'll tend to take his word over yours. Not to mention that the results speak for themselves.

I'm on my phone now, and can't find the link, but will post it later, if your interested.

[Darkstream]

50 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

You don´t get it, for him, the more people like it, the worst the show. Most people must be less smart than he is, or less of a fan, so obviously most people would like something of an inferior quality.

Kindly refrain from putting words in my mouth. I've never stated anything of the sort. My assertion is that popularity can not be used to judge quality. See my statement above in regards to other shows that are extremely popular, yet most would agree that they are garbage.

[NutBurz]

15 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

My assertion is that popularity can not be used to judge quality.

And how come, unless you believe that people like something "bad" because they´re stupid.

You don´t like the Kardashians, great, many people do, and it would be stupid not to make the show if there´s people willing to pay for it. You don´t think Kardashians has any quality, great, don´t watch it, but there´s certainly a lot of people who find some quality in it, or they wouldn´t watch it. Are they stupid for finding some quality in it, just because you don´t?

I find horror movies to be complete waste of time. They´re incredibly successful though - who am I to say they lack quality? If I don´t know how to appreciate it, how could I even judge that?

 

You´re set in this notion that the North Rrmembers plot was ridiculous just because it wasn´t like you wanted it to be. Countless people have already pointed out how things do make sense, and the only argument people like you have against it is that it didn´t happen like in the books or like they had expected the Lords to act. Quality is not exclusively in meeting your expectations.

 

 

[Darkstream]

36 minutes ago, NutBurz said:

And how come, unless you believe that people like something "bad" because they´re stupid.

You don´t like the Kardashians, great, many people do, and it would be stupid not to make the show if there´s people willing to pay for it. You don´t think Kardashians has any quality, great, don´t watch it, but there´s certainly a lot of people who find some quality in it, or they wouldn´t watch it. Are they stupid for finding some quality in it, just because you don´t?

I find horror movies to be complete waste of time. They´re incredibly successful though - who am I to say they lack quality? If I don´t know how to appreciate it, how could I even judge that?

 

You´re set in this notion that the North Rrmembers plot was ridiculous just because it wasn´t like you wanted it to be. Countless people have already pointed out how things do make sense, and the only argument people like you have against it is that it didn´t happen like in the books or like they had expected the Lords to act. Quality is not exclusively in meeting your expectations.

 

 

You know I've explained this to you several times in the past, but you continue to come at me with this bullshit strawman, so i really see no need to keep wasting my time.

[Dolorous Gabe]

2 hours ago, Dragon in the North said:

We're way past the Red Wedding, and ratings have only gone up.

Because it gathered its audience over time. A large majority who are part of the current ratings will have streamed the series to catch up because they came to it later. That's pretty obvious. The point is, the whole audience went through the early seasons and that's what grabbed them.

To give the show runners their due, they knew what would keep the majority of the audience watching as it airs for fear of being spoiled but I believe their fairly industrial yet slipshod approach has been at the expense of good storytelling.

[mafro987daboss]

1 hour ago, NutBurz said:

And how come, unless you believe that people like something "bad" because they´re stupid.

You don´t like the Kardashians, great, many people do, and it would be stupid not to make the show if there´s people willing to pay for it. You don´t think Kardashians has any quality, great, don´t watch it, but there´s certainly a lot of people who find some quality in it, or they wouldn´t watch it. Are they stupid for finding some quality in it, just because you don´t?

I find horror movies to be complete waste of time. They´re incredibly successful though - who am I to say they lack quality? If I don´t know how to appreciate it, how could I even judge that?

 

You´re set in this notion that the North Re

members plot was ridiculous just because it wasn´t like you wanted it to be. Countless people have already pointed out how things do make sense, and the only argument people like you have against it is that it didn´t happen like in the books or like they had expected the Lords to act. Quality is not exclusively in meeting your expectations.

 

 

Come on. Let's not pretend that all TV shows are on the same level. If loads of people like the Kardashian show, that's fine- everyone gets something different out of watching television or any media. But I'm sure most of the viewers of that show would never claim that what they're watching somehow has more quality than The Wire.

It's very obvious that there are different quality levels between shows, and viewership is absolutely not the be all and end all of quality. The Leftovers had less than a million views per episode for most of its latest season, yet many regard it as the best thing on TV. I've never seen a 'fan' of a reality TV show claim that it's the best show on air. Many Game of Thrones fans do claim that it's the best show on air though, which many people dispute, and definitely not because of the "it's got more popular so they hate it more and more" reason people are giving.

I know people that have watched every episode of Game of Thrones that could not name 5 characters from the show. Are you telling me that their opinion of Game of Thrones being "the best show on TV" is as valid as someone who actually has a proper interest in TV and can compare GOT in relation to other shows on the same level?

[NutBurz]

I´m definetely not saying that popularity is the only measure to the quality of a show, only that it´s a very, very important one.

What good is a series that is incredibly complex, and deep, and absolutely faithful to a certain source material and lasts one season because only the fans of the source material liked it? That´s not very good TV. Good TV tells a story to the person who doesn´t want to be forced to name 5 characters in the show to prove that they like something. Not everyone is a die-hard fan or want to be forced to invest extra time to understand a series, and TV cannot concern itself only with die-hard fans and people who are willing to go beyond the TV exposition.

[Stannis is the man....nis]

4 hours ago, NutBurz said:

If this had been what we got, the "North Remembers" part of the story would be the mess that many fans wish it was, with the series trying to presents us at least five new characters (and since it´s GoT, they would try to give them depth, and since they would have like 7 episodes to do so while still telling the story, they would fail) whose only function, plot-wise, is to save the Starks without it being ridiculously farfecthed (which they would probably fail again).

That is such a hyperbole, all you need for a good  "North Remembers" is Wyman and Karstark in WF and Smalljon with Stannis, neck to that the rest could of been done with the regulars. Myranda could of made a great Jenye substitute

[Meera of Tarth]

3 hours ago, NutBurz said:

And how come, unless you believe that people like something "bad" because they´re stupid.

You don´t like the Kardashians, great, many people do, and it would be stupid not to make the show if there´s people willing to pay for it. You don´t think Kardashians has any quality, great, don´t watch it, but there´s certainly a lot of people who find some quality in it, or they wouldn´t watch it. Are they stupid for finding some quality in it, just because you don´t?

I find horror movies to be complete waste of time. They´re incredibly successful though - who am I to say they lack quality? If I don´t know how to appreciate it, how could I even judge that?

 

You´re set in this notion that the North Rrmembers plot was ridiculous just because it wasn´t like you wanted it to be. Countless people have already pointed out how things do make sense, and the only argument people like you have against it is that it didn´t happen like in the books or like they had expected the Lords to act. Quality is not exclusively in meeting your expectations.

 

 

Some people watch things they like and acknowledge there's no special  quality in it.......

[JonSnow4President]

2 hours ago, mafro987daboss said:

 

I know people that have watched every episode of Game of Thrones that could not name 5 characters from the show. Are you telling me that their opinion of Game of Thrones being "the best show on TV" is as valid as someone who actually has a proper interest in TV and can compare GOT in relation to other shows on the same level?

The number of times I've had to explain who "Dany" was (and sadly, Daenerys did not do it for them) is a testament to this.  Or Jorah.  Or Barristan.  Or Sansa.  Basically anyone but Ned, Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, and Arya (and we'll throw "Kallie C" in there for good measure).

We're outside the realm of book only gripes.  I'm extremely pissed about the Northern storyline because of what they had to work with, but setting that aside, the North storyline is still incredibly weak.  Parties have to behave inexplicably for 2 seasons for events to work.  So you have people deciding to marry into their enemies family for revenge, not holding the most vital fortress securing the edge of their realm, and fighting for one of the people who orchestrated the deaths of their loved ones at the Red Wedding (show doesn't have Roose using his command to weaken his rival Northern houses before that). 

It's not that Dorne is different from the family focused story we get in the books.  It's that there are no consequences for Jaime's actions, and apparently killing your lover/father's beloved family for revenge rewards you with political legitimacy. 

It's not that Mereen is a pale shade of the complexity of the books.  It's that it's one long awkward scene of Tyrion trying to make his coworkers more outgoing.  There are a couple interesting scenes that do have potential, but that potential is ultimately wasted (former slaves debating slavery with Tyrion, until one of them just agrees with him and tells him how smart he is, Daario constantly talking about the new world Dany is building and how he wants to see it, but Daario actually being placed in the position to make that world a reality).  It's the people of a culture deciding to worship someone as a goddess for breaking all the laws of their culture, when they already have been shown to despise witchcraft.  

It's not that the Faith uprising is different from the books.  It's that they're a terrible parody of the absolute worst things an atheist would ever believe of a church, and used in an incredibly heavyhanded manner.  

It's not that Arya's training is different from the books, and we don't get to see each step along the way.  It's that after stopping the stick ONE TIME (and promptly being beaten after doing so), she's suddenly able to kill the Waif while wounded, and the whole WTF that was that storyline after she left the HoBaW.

It's not that Stannis dies at an earlier point than he does in the books.  It's that he dies under a laughably ridiculous set of circumstances flip him from the superior power in the region to a rag tag band destined for failure at the hands of Ramsay, the greatest badass who ever was or ever will be.

It's not that things are different, or even that they are inferior to the book counterparts.  It's that they don't hold up on their own.  I am constantly amazed that anyone defends the story decisions of the last two seasons as anything other than complete and utter garbage, let alone good.  

[Dragon in the North]

4 hours ago, Darkstream said:

I would suggest that you take a look at the ratings for shows like Jersey shore and the Kardahia-whatevers, I suppose those are quality shows that can be considered some of the best ever as well?

I've never seen either of those shows, so I can't speak for their quality, but unless they've also received critical acclaim and emmy wins, it's a moot point.

 

4 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Well they're not my conspiracy theorys, when the former head of HBO, who's job entailed dealing with this sort of thing states that this is the case,  I'll tend to take his word over yours. 

I tried finding it, but couldn't see any mention of it anywhere. A link would be appreciated.

4 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Not to mention that the results speak for themselves.

What results, exactly? Is it so hard to believe critics like something that you don't?

[Dragon in the North]

3 hours ago, Dolorous Gabe said:

Because it gathered its audience over time. A large majority who are part of the current ratings will have streamed the series to catch up because they came to it later. That's pretty obvious. The point is, the whole audience went through the early seasons and that's what grabbed them.

To give the show runners their due, they knew what would keep the majority of the audience watching as it airs for fear of being spoiled but I believe their fairly industrial yet slipshod approach has been at the expense of good storytelling.

If people truly believed their was a drop in quality, they would stop watching the show. People don't voluntarily do things they don't enjoy. The ratings keep growing because the viewers like what D&D are doing.

[Meera of Tarth]

13 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

 

It's not that Mereen is a pale shade of the complexity of the books.  It's that it's one long awkward scene of Tyrion trying to make his coworkers more outgoing.  There are a couple interesting scenes that do have potential, but that potential is ultimately wasted (former slaves debating slavery with Tyrion, until one of them just agrees with him and tells him how smart he is, Daario constantly talking about the new world Dany is building and how he wants to see it, but Daario actually being placed in the position to make that world a reality).  It's the people of a culture deciding to worship someone as a goddess for breaking all the laws of their culture, when they already have been shown to despise witchcraft.  

 

You don't have to be a "reader" to see that......This is the best example of the real drop in quality the show suffered.

Quote

It's not that Stannis dies at an earlier point than he does in the books.  It's that he dies under a laughably ridiculous set of circumstances flip him from the superior power in the region to a rag tag band destined for failure at the hands of Ramsay, the greatest badass who ever was or ever will be.

It's not that things are different, or even that they are inferior to the book counterparts.  It's that they don't hold up on their own.  I am constantly amazed that anyone defends the story decisions of the last two seasons as anything other than complete and utter garbage, let alone good.

Well, in the hands of Ramsay and his "20 good men".