D&D reveal: Jon will face "selfish individuals" and overcome "dishonorable enemies" in s7

[Lord Friendzone]

3 hours ago, NutBurz said:

I´m fairly certain Jon will die in what his fans will believe to be a disappointing manner. I´m also fairly certain Sansa will both betray and outlive him.

I agree that if Jon continues to win groups to his side, he would prevail, and the story could even have a happy ending. I just don´t think he will manage to. He is too obsessed (not without reason) with things that won´t be palpable to most people until it´s too late. He too aware of what´s up to understand how people who don´t know what´s up think.

 

I find it likely that he will eventually want to join Dany, because he sees how that´s the best plan for team human, while most of his people won´t be ok with that. If he doesn´t die soon after the Wall collapse.

If Jon dies it will be right at the end and not before. If it will be Jon vs Sansa who will die then you can bet it's Sansa. But still think they both live after this feud but their relartionship won't be pretty.

[Commander Jon Snow]

I actually do think Jon will die but it will be at the end IMO. D&D are almost certainly referring to Littlefinger right now. Only question is how involved Sansa gets with his plot. It can really go two ways. She fully joins Littlefinger and ultimately dies. Or she ultimately sides with Jon. I could honestly see either happening

My guess is they will set up Jon vs. Sansa pretty early in the series and it won't be resolved until episode 5 or 6. 

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

I hope the use this misdirection to actually catch Littlefinger and 'pull his teeth' so to speak.

It would be great if Jon asks Sansa to find out what LF is plotting to help free Sweet Robin from his wicked Uncle Peter. That would portray the Sansa they are trying to promote. Savvy, a player worthy of a King's Landing graduate. If Jon and Sansa work together they could be the "Tyrion and Dany" of the North. 

[Lady Ren]

1 hour ago, of man and wolf said:

Jon vs Sansa would be so stupid. Stark vs Stark...after everything they've been though and that happens? Please no.

That's how I see it. 

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Honestly if they go the "evil Sansa" route on the show, I'll be sick with disappointment.  I have thoroughly enjoyed the subtlety of the book character and I love the analysis of Sansa in the Pawn to Player project in the Re-Read section.  She's an amazing character that I've personally related to her experiences growing up.  I don't mind re-writing plot, but I can't abide re-writing personalities (not just hers).  I was already almost over it with the rape scene, which seemed to be mainly a device for Theon's redemption.  Evil Sansa just trashes all the complexity the author took enormous pains to create in her journey:  coming of age female sexuality, from naivete to worldliness without losing humanity, from political prisoner and pawn to autonomy and choice, feminity that is both traditional and rebels against society.  Evil Sansa just reduces her to a stereotype of the most feminine characters being either duplicitous villians that  bring men down or they're just vapid window dressing for the heros. 

But... I am still 90% sure the hype is misdirection to keep us from the real plot.  There's very little time left (with about 13 shows?) anyway to set up and process through a Stark civil war while all the overarching plots need to be resolved: mainly Dany and the Others. We're entering the final act. Things need to start winding to conclusion, not whole new plot lines emerging.  

@thebolded: (1) The show as well. I wrote a post earlier on another thread as a breakdown of Sansa's character from 6x01 to 6x09. I just loved her this season. Her inner conflict for all to see. And it's not a conflict between being Queen and being Jon's sidekick. It's a conflict within herself to trust others (and possibly herself) again. A conflict to stop listening to the thoughts in her head and gain some awareness of what floats around in it - what others put in it. The true good vs. evil battle. 

Despite D&D and directions attempt to make Sansa look dubious, her allegiance is clear to me, and to her I think. I am 100% convinced Sansa will not betray Jon knowingly, if at all.

(2) Me too. Her younger self is my younger self. I got to say though, it took me quite a bit longer to get to where she is currently. 

"Evil Sansa" is unworthy of what's taken place so far. It is shoddy like you said. 

 

 

[Winter's Cold]

I don't know whether Sansa will side with Jon or betray him this upcoming season. What I do know is that Sansa did not express much family loyalty last season. 

I'm particularly struck by her decision to give up on Rickon on the eve of the battle. Knowing Ramsay's nature, it may have been the smart thing to do however it shows that loyalty to her family members is not very important to Sansa.

It reminded of season one Sansa, when she betrayed Arya by refusing to say the truth about what happened at the Trident. Sansa's personal ambitions or desires are more important to her than her family members.

Her potential betrayal of Jon would not be an aberration. It would fit into a distinct pattern of Sansa putting ambition before family.

 

[Lady Ren]

1 hour ago, Winter's Cold said:

I don't know whether Sansa will side with Jon or betray him this upcoming season. What I do know is that Sansa did not express much family loyalty last season. 

I'm particularly struck by her decision to give up on Rickon on the eve of the battle. Knowing Ramsay's nature, it may have been the smart thing to do however it shows that loyalty to her family members is not very important to Sansa.

It reminded of season one Sansa, when she betrayed Arya by refusing to say the truth about what happened at the Trident. Sansa's personal ambitions or desires are more important to her than her family members.

Her potential betrayal of Jon would not be an aberration. It would fit into a distinct pattern of Sansa putting ambition before family.

 

Jon's decision to deny the truth and run towards Rickon won him the North's respect. 

I was going to say that Sansa's decision to stay cool helped. But to be honest, it doesn't matter. 

Winterfell and Rickon were not opposing objectives. 

Up until and after Rickon's death was confirmed for Sansa (i.e.: Shaggy dog's head), Winterfell and Rickon were one and the same. It's not like she was trying to convince Jon to fight a different battle. It was the same field and the same enemy. She just wanted him to understand that winning Winterfell was not going to get Rickon back. The stakes changed. That is all. Brace yourself, was her message. Don't fuck this up for us. 

Let's say Sansa was really cold and gave up on Rickon too soon. Maybe she should've shown more of that classic Stark emotion and stubborn passion. 

But from what I understand Winterfell = family and safety. Sansa clearly stated her goals in 6x04: (1) To be safe they need to take back Winterfell, (2) Winterfell is their home, and Arya's and Bran's and Rickon's, and (3) She wanted to do this together. 

So I don't understand how her "ambition" (take back Winterfell) could in any way oppose her allegiance to her family. At most she compromised family (that was as good as dead) for family (that is still living). 

 

[Newstar]

2 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Evil Sansa just trashes all the complexity the author took enormous pains to create in her journey:  coming of age female sexuality, from naivete to worldliness without losing humanity, from political prisoner and pawn to autonomy and choice, feminity that is both traditional and rebels against society.  Evil Sansa just reduces her to a stereotype of the most feminine characters being either duplicitous villians that  bring men down or they're just vapid window dressing for the heros. 

I don't see it that way. Sansa's character arc in the show is tragic in the best way. Sansa has always been a mirror image of Cersei, although she's not vicious the way Cersei is (or at least she wasn't prior to 6x09), and that symmetry between the two is finally bearing fruit. Sansa's gradual transformation from someone repulsed by Cersei to someone just as cynical, as callous ("No one can protect anyone"), and as obsessed with recognition, power and control as Cersei, continuing the vicious cycle of naive young women dreaming of queenship and romantic marriages to princes turned into abused, brittle, jaded powermongers, is a lovely and terrible kind of symmetry.

This symmetry was made very clear in Season 6. Season 6 Sansa echoes Cersei's line with Tywin from an earlier season; Cersei demands whether it ever occurred to Tywin that she might have some insight, and Sansa says pretty much exactly the same thing to Jon when she's urging him to show her the respect she believes she's owed (much as Cersei once did with Tywin). Season 6 Sansa gleefully walks away from her torturer, leaving him in horrible pain, and Cersei in 6x10 does the same thing to the person who tormented her. 

What makes it tragic is that everything about Sansa's behaviour in Season 6--her refusal to trust Jon, her lies, her inability to cut ties with LF when he shows he can be valuable, etc.--is a product of her experiences. She has suffered so much that she's lost all interest in prayer (remember Cersei mocking Sansa praying in 2x09). She has been let down so many times by people who professed to love her or at least care about her that she cannot bring herself to trust or believe that anyone can protect her ("No one can protect anyone"). She has been used and abused as a pawn so many times that when the opportunity arrives for her to have control and a say over her own destiny, she eagerly pursues it, much as Cersei immediately began throwing her weight around once freed of Robert and Tywin. She has been so transformed by her experiences that she has turned into the person who is the very embodiment of everything she didn't want to be, and that's a great story.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

26 minutes ago, Lady Ren said:

(1) The show as well. I wrote a post earlier on another thread as a breakdown of Sansa's character from 6x01 to 6x09. I just loved her this season. Her inner conflict for all to see. And it's not a conflict between being Queen and being Jon's sidekick. It's a conflict within herself to trust others (and possibly herself) again. A conflict to stop listening to the thoughts in her head and gain some awareness of what floats around in it - what others put in it. The true good vs. evil battle

I would love to read that. I will try to find it. I'm glad you saw it  way. Maybe it was just so much viewer commentary that seemed to interpret her in such a negative light. If it was however, the show runners' intention to display her inner conflict with trust as you said, what's troubling is just how many people saw it as Sansa being morally dubious and selfishness.  I am not sure where the problem lies.  Was the audience just not up for that level of subtlety or was the direction so lacking that it allowed for so much misinterpretation?  Hell, many readers don't even "get" Sansa on the first read. I didn't. I don't think any character lives in her own head as much as Sansa does and it's easy to assume when other POV characters mention her that they have her pegged correctly. I can totally understand that she's probably a tough one to accurately portray on screen. 

 

43 minutes ago, Lady Ren said:

2) Me too. Her younger self is my younger self. I got to say though, it took me quite a bit longer to get to where she is currently.

Yeah, me too.  All the times I was painfully naive and paid for it. It's easy to call her stupid and superficial, but her biggest crime is being human.  She placed her bets on love and lost the hand, but not the game.  It's very human and near universal to fall hard and fast for someone we shouldn't have and to defend someone who didn't deserve defending.  

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

Maybe I'm alone in this but I took the ending to season 6 as Sansa growing up and keeping LF at arm's length while siding with Jon completely. She looked genuinely happy when Jon was KitN and her rejection of LF appeared real.

IDK, I think people are looking for controversy and will be pleasantly surprised by Sansa being Jon's right hand going forward.

[NutBurz]

@Newstar Bullseye

[Lady Ren]

1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Maybe it was just so much viewer commentary that seemed to interpret her in such a negative light. If it was however, the show runners' intention to display her inner conflict with trust as you said, what's troubling is just how many people saw it as Sansa being morally dubious and selfishness.  I am not sure where the problem lies.  Was the audience just not up for that level of subtlety or was the direction so lacking that it allowed for so much misinterpretation?  

It's easy to call her stupid and superficial, but her biggest crime is being human.  

I think that the showrunners purposefully set out to portray her ambiguously: so that she can viewed as being in conflict with herself, or as a betrayer lurking in the dark. There is stuff aside from their hype building. The editing in season 6 was odd too. In 6x09, when Sansa arrives with the Vale: we see Jon's "I'm alive!" face mixed with surprise at seeing the Vale, followed by Sansa's smirk, and then dawning realization on Ramsey's face. Who was the smirk for? Then seconds later we see Ramsey run to the gates of Winterfell, Jon fun after him, but this time we have a worried look on Sansa's face. So there's the earlier ambiguity, which is then immediately tempered. 

But the moments that can be interpreted as "good ole evil Sansa" are very few and they just can't compete with everything else. When viewed in context (of all the subtlety you mentioned), the moments of ambiguity mean something else entirely. Like the fact that Sansa sewed Jon's cloak before she lied to him about meeting with Littlefinger. Logically then, it can't be a guilt gift. It was an act of love and solidarity. And yes, she's conflicted. Big surprise. 

What did George say? A human in conflict with himself is the best.

When I see Sansa lie to Jon that is all I think. Yes, it is "grey", but it's freaking beautiful. I mean, without it we would have just a typical female 'supporter of the rough and tumble male lead' (think 80's and 90's action films - "no Clint, don't do that heroic thing. Don't fight this battle."). No flaws or humanness to speak of. Just background noise (which is how Jon viewed her up until she showed up with the Vale btw). But I'm getting off track here. 

The showrunners want us to have this lurking suspicion, so that when she (or whoever) destroys Littlefinger, it is going to be just like, "wow!" The problem is, like you said, is that a "Sansa the betrayer" subplot would be a direct contradiction to her character. And it would suck. It would be like Arya dying. Just completely obliterate the soul why don't you? Sansa needs to win her battle. 

Sansa is a hard character to get, but she's also worth it I think. 

Online commentary is maybe a little more intense than just the average viewers. I take my mom to be an example of the average viewer, and while she doubted Sansa after she lied to Jon about meeting with Littlefinger, by the end of the season my mom was like "Starks forever!" lol 

[Bear Claw]

1 hour ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

Maybe I'm alone in this but I took the ending to season 6 as Sansa growing up and keeping LF at arm's length while siding with Jon completely. She looked genuinely happy when Jon was KitN and her rejection of LF appeared real.

IDK, I think people are looking for controversy and will be pleasantly surprised by Sansa being Jon's right hand going forward.

I agree with you. She didn't tell Jon about LF for some reason. Who knows why??? That doesn't negate the seasons of her complaining about people betraying her family, and crying about the deaths of her family. If she was out for herself, why did she tell Jon about Arya?? She could have kept that info to herself. Keeping that secret would have sold me on selfish. Instead she makes him a cloak (only Hot Pie can surpass her gift giving skills).  What did he ever give her??? I think she is the one who has made his dreams come true (Winterfell, Stark, KiTN) and what did she get out of this??? He wouldn't seek out more Northmen, so he forced her to grovel to LF. He looks like the selfish one here. 

[Lady Ren]

17 minutes ago, Bear Claw said:

What did he ever give her??? I think she is the one who has made his dreams come true (Winterfell, Stark, KiTN) and what did she get out of this??? He wouldn't seek out more Northmen, so he forced her to grovel to LF. He looks like the selfish one here. 

His attitude is still kind of dismissive in 6x10. He is still having a hard time seeing her for who she is, and what she can offer. While he's still not very in tune to what she's feeling (even now), I think he'll learn to read her. 

[Duranaparthur]

1 hour ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

Maybe I'm alone in this but I took the ending to season 6 as Sansa growing up and keeping LF at arm's length while siding with Jon completely. She looked genuinely happy when Jon was KitN and her rejection of LF appeared real.

IDK, I think people are looking for controversy and will be pleasantly surprised by Sansa being Jon's right hand going forward.

I'm with you; myself and other people on other boards and podcasts I listened to interpreted the last scene of the episode with Sansa and Littlefinger's look as not being a "I'm angry my half-brother's getting my glory here" but as a "...Oh shit. Littlefinger's going to play Jon now" look.

I can see Sansa being antagonistic towards Jon in two ways: the most evil is that she decides  at some point in Season 8 that Jon is a danger to himself and the kingdom, and the more likely is that she starts operating without coordinating with Jon, causing some cross-purpose moments. She's been portrayed as far too introspective in both the books and the series to succumb completely to Cersei and Littlefinger's inward focused selfishness; she's capable of understanding how monsters think, but her care and empathy still move outward towards others, such as her clear reconciliation and appreciation for Jon, instead of inward, unlike Cersei's twisted love for how her children make her feel or Littlefinger grooming a young girl like a paedophile.

Sansa may very well have an excellent internal conflict story going forward, but if they want her to go bad, they're going to have to give us some episodes showing her deteriorating far more than she is right now.

[Colonel Green]

5 hours ago, Darksky said:

This is what's irritating about the undeserved credit Sansa has been given by lots of fans on various sites.

Thing is, it's not "fans" who are responsible for most of that.  It's the writers of the show.

Because everyone involved with the show, from the writers to the actors (and not just Sophie Turner, who always, as you'd expect, wants to hype her character up), has taken the position that this is a huge season for Sansa where she shows herself to be a great player of the game of thrones.  The ending of 6x09, from the triumphal music when she appears with the Knights of the Vale and all the "hero shots" of her watching Ramsay's army destroyed, to the framing of her final scene with Ramsay, position this as Sansa's big moment.  Hence, Sophie describing the latter as "Sansa's first kill" or the writers talking about her contributions being overlooked or other actors like Isaac Hempstead-Wright and Liam Cunningham talking about how great Sansa is in Season 6.  So it's not surprising that fans and critics took that away from the show, because the show wanted them to.

As you lay out in many cases, Sansa didn't actually do much of anything (and some of what she did do, like withholding information about the Vale knights, is inscrutably motivated and doesn't make any sense).  But that's because the writers (as they not infrequently do) didn't plot the show very well.  Much like how the season ends with Jon being proclaimed King in the North even though he did nothing much in the preceding episodes to indicate why all the Northern lords would be so eager to do that.  Or, frankly, the many other instances where people we're meant to see as players really don't live up to that billing (Margaery is another big case of this, and also, fittingly enough, Littlefinger).

[GhostNymeria]

2 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

As you lay out in many cases, Sansa didn't actually do much of anything (and some of what she did do, like withholding information about the Vale knights, is inscrutably motivated and doesn't make any sense).  But that's because the writers (as they not infrequently do) didn't plot the show very well.  Much like how the season ends with Jon being proclaimed King in the North even though he did nothing much in the preceding episodes to indicate why all the Northern lords would be so eager to do that.  Or, frankly, the many other instances where people we're meant to see as players really don't live up to that billing (Margaery is another big case of this, and also, fittingly enough, Littlefinger).

So, what really was supposed be canon was Sansa showing her awesome political skills and rallying the north and the Vale to her cause? I agree that D&D's writing is lacking, but what is shown on screen is canon for this show, regardless how the character's are in the book. It is a huge part of Sansa fans who claims that she did do all of that on screen, so yes, it is the fans who gives her that credit. 

3 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

What did he ever give her??? I think she is the one who has made his dreams come true (Winterfell, Stark, KiTN) and what did she get out of this??? He wouldn't seek out more Northmen, so he forced her to grovel to LF. He looks like the selfish one here. 

How was Sansa responsible for taking back Winterfell and making Jon KitN? The only thing Sansa did "offer" to their campaign was the knights of the Vale, which did save them in the end (I agree with that part). But you're saying Jon "forced her" to write to Littlefinger, and that she wouldn't have needed to if Jon seeked out more northmen. You are basically saying that Sansa wouldn't have offered anything to their campaign if Jon wouldn't have "forced" her. 

Jon didn't "give her" something? She asked him to fight, which he did because of her and Rickon. She wanted Winterfell back, and Jon fought and risked his life in battle for the thing she asked for. How is Jon the selfish one then, when he was the one who risked his own and his men's life in battle? Like Jon and Davos said, there was no time to try to seek out more northmen, there was a storm coming. Sansa was the one who got offered one of the biggest and best army in Westeros, which would guarantee a victory. But instead of taking that offer, she decided to keep it a secret and watch as Jon marshed into battle and risking his and his 2400 men's life, against Bolton's 6000 men. So basically, Jon risked his life for Sansa's wishes and Rickon, but Sansa was to proud to take any offer from Littlefinger because she didn't like him anymore. So again, Jon is the selfish one?

 And Sansa did not make Jon king, the northern lords did. And Jon did certainly not want to become king anyway, just like he didn't wan't to become lord commander. As for the Stark name and Winterfell, Stannis already offered him all that, which he declined. So Stannis was the one offering him everything he wanted. 

 

[Drago]

Well my friends, I say this, Valar Morghulis. Jon has already died once and he will not die again any time soon, He will be there until the end.

You don't build a character up over 5 seasons, kill him off and bring him back the following season just to kill him again the season after that. He is an end game player, he is one of the only characters who did not want to lead but was forced into it and proven he has got what it takes, yes he has made mistakes for the right reasons showed a lack of awareness at times and died because of it but he has been given a second chance by the Gods, he has humility when others do not and genuinely cares for the well being of everyone and he is capable of bringing waring faction together. He is the right man to lead and although he does not know it yet it is his right. In my opinion this is why the lord of light brought him back.

Sansa is on a knife edge at the moment, she could go either way but when all the cards are laid out on the table I believe she will side with her cousin and bring LF down when The Hound and Arya show up with their knowledge.

 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I would take everything that D&D say with a pitch of salt. Why would they spill the beans about the most popular TV shows ever? What D&D do is stzrring up fan speculations and boost interest while the new season is in production. The production is expensive, the actors becoming stars so thez don't want to loose their audience.

Last time before the s6 kicked off, the showmakers and the actors told in all the interviews that Jon is dead, dead, dealier than dead. All the trailers for s6 featured Jon's dead body. But for most people it was clear that Jon isn't gone. Now when D&D and co. hint as subtile as an elephant that Sansa will conflict with Jon. I'm not buying it again and I don't appreciate treating the audience like fools. But with a lack of time, budget and GRRM's source material I fear that the GoT will slide in a fairytale direction with "good" ones fighting the "bad" ones, what we've already seen in s6e9 and s6e10.

[Runaway Penguin]

Both E09 and E10 had bad ones fighting bad ones alongside the good ones, for whatever reasons - and good ones going very objectionable pathways (feeding Ramsey to dogs; Planning a genocide against slaver cities; LF coming to assist; Sansa joining again with LF; heck in both cases also hordes of thieves, murderers and rapers helping the good).

 

As for Sansa, let's not forget she already twice betrayed her family (well, twice without coercion) - she lied about the incident between Arya and Joffrey and then she snitched on Ned. She was constantly lied to, misled and abused - heck, the only person actually trying to be nice to her is Tyrion and she doesn't really think of him too fondly. She may take some time adjusting to being in the pack again.

[Colonel Green]

5 hours ago, GhostNymeria said:

So, what really was supposed be canon was Sansa showing her awesome political skills and rallying the north and the Vale to her cause? I agree that D&D's writing is lacking, but what is shown on screen is canon for this show, regardless how the character's are in the book. It is a huge part of Sansa fans who claims that she did do all of that on screen, so yes, it is the fans who gives her that credit. 

For the most part, as I said, it's the fans getting the impression from the general feel of the show, as they are meant to (not all, of course; in soem respects, as with all characters, they're just trying to put the best spin on things).  Hence, it's canon to the show that Sansa was a major part of defeating Ramsay and is now a formidable player, because that's how the writers view it.