D&D reveal: Jon will face "selfish individuals" and overcome "dishonorable enemies" in s7

[MakeWesterosGreatAgain]

There is no Jon/Sansa drama anymore. Her hiding the Vale was a complex situation (guy Jon hates who handed her over to the Boltons and has been a Lannister man for a while) and the "what happened" was conveyed as happening off screen. "Winter is here" was supposed to indicate that they're in this together.

When Jon was pronounced KitN, Sansa smiled and had a genuine look on her face. The look she gave LF was to say "haha you lost", but she was taken aback by his refusal to stand. 

Sansa and Jon are not going to have any real conflict next season, I'd bet the house on it.

 

[illinifan]

22 minutes ago, Mandzipop said:

How do we know that this has anything to do with Sansa? If Bran turns up she has even less power so betrayal will be off the cards.

He could agree to a marriage pact with Dany, after that Daario turns up and she has a one night stand with him. Technically that is a betrayal. Littlefinger could get a kitchen wench to try and bed Jon to dig some dirt. Technically that is a betrayal. Littlefinger could tell Cersei (extremely likely) and come to some plan for Jon's downfall. That is a betrayal.

The northern storyline isn't going to be isolated from the rest of Westeros unlike previous years. We know that because of the set up for Dany considering political alliances via marriage next season. If Jon isn't on that list of eligible bachelors then I'll eat my hat.

I'm expecting Sansa to be Littlefinger's downfall. And to do that she might have to betray Jon at times to keep Littlefinger's trust. Jon needs the Lords of the Vale. If Jon just gets rid of Littlefinger, they will go back to the Vale. They will be even more keen to go back once word reaches them of Dany and her dragons arriving in Westeros. I think the opening scene with Waymar Royce getting killed will become an important part of season 7.

The only known aspect of the season 7 northern storyline is that at least Sansa finds out about Jon's parentage.

Jon is the whole list of eligible bachelors of a certain stature in Westros.  

[Bear Claw]

7 hours ago, Darksky said:

 

Nothing against propping up female characters, but why does it have to come about by putting down male ones? This is my big fear about season 7, that this trend will continue. Especially with regard to Jon and Sansa. Making it seem that Sansa is somehow justified in her potential actions to undermine Jon and take his place as the ruler (despite it being wartime and her not being equipped to govern the North during the Long Night/WWs' eventual invasion), by making him totally incompetent and naive. I understand having Jon be trusting of people and do questionable things in seasons 1/2/3 but not when it's the final act and he's an endgame player (unlike Sansa).  What Jon has seen and gone through, one would think he wouldn't be able to trust anyone fully, like Sansa doesn't. And that he would be more acute to people scheming and their potential ill will towards him. The sooner Sansa vanishes from Jon's orbit the better for Jon and his arc.

This show does have difficulty when putting two main characters together. It seems that they do prop one up at the cost of another. To me season 5 Theon/Sansa was indicative of that. In the books, Sansa has her own storyline, but in the show season 5  seemed mostly about Theon. I would like to have seen her storyline without Theon.  I don't think there will be good news for Jon fans when Sansa leaves his arc because most likely Dany will enter  his arc. Dany will dominate the story line. 

[Lady Ren]

So I re-watched the inside the episode for 4x08  - both D&D and George spoke. I have to make a correction. What they said didn't go against Sansa's arc, if you keep it in mind up until the end of season 6.

So I decided to watch the inside the episode for 6x10. 

David acknowledges the following about Sansa:

1. Sansa doesn't fully trust Jon;

2. Littlefinger still has a hold on Sansa;

3. Sansa does love her brother; 

4. Sansa feels some jealousy and anger for being overlooked at the war council; and

5. that relationship will be crucial to watch.

If that is what 6x10 was supposed to communicate then it definitely did that for me. But nothing that David said about Sansa indicates that she is going to try and "usurp" her brother. 

I admit it, I don't think D&D lied. But the "selfish" person in Jon's group is most definitely Littlefinger. He doesn't even have to make big movies (the R+L=J kind). Instead he will back both Jon and Sansa into a corner: 

(1) All Littlefinger has to do is whisper things into Jon's ear. How Sansa is his niece. How he truly knew nothing about Ramsey's inclinations. How staunchly Sansa defended him at the Eyrie. How he rescued her from the Lannisters. How the Vale's continued support is up to Robin. How Robin really wants to marry his pretty cousin. How Sansa may be safer in the Eyrie (when the WW come) rather than at Winterfell. 

(2) He's going to try and isolate Sansa again so that she is dependent solely on him. Somethings he'll whisper in her ear as well. Like how the Vale's continued support is up to Robin. How a marriage with Robin would do great things for her family. Sansa likely will take the decision to marry Robin (thinking that she will protect both him and herself from Littlefinger), and won't confide in Jon (the dangers) because she views Littlefinger as her problem to deal with. She doesn't let people tangle with him for her (ex: telling Brienne to go away in season early 5, and lying to Jon).  Why? Littlefinger makes her a participant in his crimes without her even knowing, offers to "rescue" her, and in that way his hold on her increases even more. He makes her feel responsible for what he does (exs: Joffrey and Lysa). 

The Vale's continued support is a big consideration. What did GRRM say? Good people don't necessarily make good Kings. While Jon would want to protect Sansa, he can't rule solely with emotion. And while Sansa wants only what she has, what if keeping what she has becomes increasingly difficult? That's the challenge for Sansa next season I think. Getting away from Littlefinger once and for all. 

I could be wrong. All of this Littlefinger stuff could be resolved in the very first episode for all i know. But he has a way of sticking around. 

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

If it really comes to Jon vs Sansa/LF and the brotherhood decide to side with Jon, the question is who will the hound side with ? his brothers without banners or his little bird

[a black swan]

27 minutes ago, Lady Ren said:

I admit it, I don't think D&D lied. But the "selfish" person in Jon's group is most definitely Littlefinger.

D&D never said person. They said "men and women", "selfish individuals" and "enemies".

This is what was discussed earlier about fans distorting reality to fit their own viewpoints.

D&D also said Jon needs to win over more people to fight these individuals. (probably the Vale or the BwB) because LF on his own not going to get to Jon. He has been using Sansa since their first meeting last season, planting ideas directly against Jon in her head. You also forget Sansa owes LF now. 

[Lady Ren]

7 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

D&D never said person. They said "men and women", "selfish individuals" and "enemies".

This is what was discussed earlier about fans distorting reality to fit their own viewpoints.

D&D also said Jon needs to win over more people to fight these individuals. (probably the Vale or the BwB) because LF on his own not going to get to Jon. He has been using Sansa since their first meeting last season, planting ideas directly against Jon in her head. You also forget Sansa owes LF now. 

okay, selfish men and women. Doesn't mean that Sansa is one of those women. Also, nothing I've seen on the show or heard from D&D have led me to beleive that Sansa is going to try and murder her own brother. 

@thebolded: that is exactly what I said. 

[a black swan]

13 minutes ago, Lady Ren said:

okay, selfish men and women. Doesn't mean that Sansa is one of those women. But nothing I've seen on the show or heard from D&D have led me to beleive that Sansa is going to try and murder her own brother. 

@thebolded: that is exactly what I said. 

No one suggested she would try and murder him? Betrayals come in all shapes and sizes.

You forget Jon beheaded a man for merely questioning his authority while leading the Night's Watch. This is Jon as a King now. She could have little active involvement and LF could still make her look guilty. Case in point: Joffery's poisoning. 

Sansa understands the dangers, at least in the books, "I never asked to play, the game was too dangerous. One slip and i am dead."

Getting rid of Jon in a brutal way might be fine with LF, but that won't be how he dresses it up for Sansa so she can comply. He is a master manipulator. He played her into owing him after she turned him down in their first meeting. Sansa is not on LF's level with these mind games. That's part of the problem here. She thought she could rally the North just because she is a Stark and failed. A southern lowborn from Flea Bottom did a better job of rallying the North and has Jon's trust. That's the type of cockiness that will lead to hubris - thinking she can outwit LF (because she "knows him") when he most likely will be playing her all along.

Also once Arya & Sandor enter the picture, it's over for LF. It's just a matter of how dirty (if at all) Sansa gets her hands before this point. Sandor knows of LF's involvement in Ned's arrest and Arya knows he was an agent of Tywin Lannister and working against Robb during the war. LF's time in Winterfell is numbered, it's just whether or not he takes Sansa down with him. If he does, hopefully he finds her another escape like he did when he framed her for Joffery's murder. 

[The Arthur Smith]

Aside from Littlefinger and Sansa, keep in mind we have northern houses that some may not approve Jon of KitN. We have yet to see Harald Karstark (they didn't show what happen to him),  the rest of the Umber members like Mors, Hother, Smalljon's siblings, the Glovers, and some other houses.

[nothatso]

12 hours ago, illinifan said:

 First, when have either Dany or Jon shown great leadership? The whole subversion of the Dany-Jon plot is that they suck in formal leadership roles.  Neither of them were groomed to be leaders. Dany spent her entire childhood in exile with her abusive brother and it would actually be offensive to Cat if Ned was seen grooming Jon for a leadership role.  Rather than being awesomely awesome as leaders, both end up failing at it.

I don't think the "subversion" of Dany and/or Jon's plots is meant to be "they suck at leading and that's that". If I remember correctly, Martin criticized the way Tolkein wrote Aragorn because you don't see him grow into the man he is, he just kind of shows up and is good at almost everything. I think it's likely that one or both of them are meant to simply be shown growing into their leadership positions rather than just instantly being awesome at them.

[MoreOrLess]

16 hours ago, MakeWesterosGreatAgain said:

There is no Jon/Sansa drama anymore. Her hiding the Vale was a complex situation (guy Jon hates who handed her over to the Boltons and has been a Lannister man for a while) and the "what happened" was conveyed as happening off screen. "Winter is here" was supposed to indicate that they're in this together.

When Jon was pronounced KitN, Sansa smiled and had a genuine look on her face. The look she gave LF was to say "haha you lost", but she was taken aback by his refusal to stand. 

Sansa and Jon are not going to have any real conflict next season, I'd bet the house on it.

I would agree with you about Jon, Sansa shows no ill will to him and seems very happy to have him made KitN so any drama there would have to be newly introduced. When it comes to LF though I think its harder to pin down, obviously she distrusts him after Ramsay but his saving the day has obviously softened her and she did seem to have some attraction to his "picture" of them as king and queen. Her look to him as well did not seem purely gloating to me, there was a thoughtfulness to her that suggested either she was weary of what LF might do or that she was acknowledging that she might have to become involved in his machinations(or indeed that Jon being KitN freed her to do so more).

Jon and Sansa splitting up does seem the most obvious way forward though I'd agree as the way there stories have progressed thus far point to the former focusing further north and the latter south. Again I think that's most likely to be the source of any disagreement between them, Sansa potentially playing politics in a way Jon might not wish for, for example taking the Vale forces south to either reclaim Riverrun or even try for the throne.

[Mandzipop]

Unless Littlefinger factored in Dany and her dragons with his little Iron Throne scheme, then all of his plans will be futile. He will have to change course. The worst thing that can happen to Littlefinger is Dany marrying Jon.

What destroyed Robb? A bad marriage. Littlefinger may try and force Jon into a bad marriage.

The only card Littlefinger has against Jon is that Jon is a Targaryan born in Dorne. This is why, for plot purposes, I think Littlefinger must already know who Jon is.

Other than that, Sansa warned Jon about Ramsey and his games, Jon didn't listen, she has warned Jon that only a fool would trust Littlefinger. It could be that Jon either doesn't trust a word of what Littlefinger says or he ignores Sansa's warnings and trusts Littlefinger.

[MoreOrLess]

1 hour ago, Mandzipop said:

Unless Littlefinger factored in Dany and her dragons with his little Iron Throne scheme, then all of his plans will be futile. He will have to change course. The worst thing that can happen to Littlefinger is Dany marrying Jon.

What destroyed Robb? A bad marriage. Littlefinger may try and force Jon into a bad marriage.

The only card Littlefinger has against Jon is that Jon is a Targaryan born in Dorne. This is why, for plot purposes, I think Littlefinger must already know who Jon is.

Other than that, Sansa warned Jon about Ramsey and his games, Jon didn't listen, she has warned Jon that only a fool would trust Littlefinger. It could be that Jon either doesn't trust a word of what Littlefinger says or he ignores Sansa's warnings and trusts Littlefinger.

I would say what destroyed Robb were bad circumstances, his enemies became a lot stronger when the Lannister/Tyrell alliance prevealed in the south and that always always likely to cause Roose and Walder to act somehow rather than face defeat.

Really there seem to be three potential paths to power for LF to me, either marriage to Dany, marriage to Cersei or looking to sweep in after the conflict between then and marry Sansa instead. The first two could involve betraying Sansa who might previously have supported him(maybe taking the Vale forces with them hurting Jon's cause) and the last two similar without hat.

I do think LF's actions will be key to at least the climax of the season if not later, whilst he's obviously fallible he's also been setup as the personification of the selfish lust for power and behind so much of whats happened.

[Dex drako]

I think Dany is one of the selfish and dishonorable enemies Jon will over come in the seasons to come.

Jon is not going to sit in the north and do nothing while Dany burns her way across westeros so Jon and Dany have to face off at some point. plus Dany's time in the dothraki sea in both show and book have set Dany up to be a villain when she gets to westeros so I feels shes on the list.  

[Darksky]

13 hours ago, Mandzipop said:

Unless Littlefinger factored in Dany and her dragons with his little Iron Throne scheme, then all of his plans will be futile. He will have to change course. The worst thing that can happen to Littlefinger is Dany marrying Jon.

What destroyed Robb? A bad marriage. Littlefinger may try and force Jon into a bad marriage.

The only card Littlefinger has against Jon is that Jon is a Targaryan born in Dorne. This is why, for plot purposes, I think Littlefinger must already know who Jon is.

Other than that, Sansa warned Jon about Ramsey and his games, Jon didn't listen, she has warned Jon that only a fool would trust Littlefinger. It could be that Jon either doesn't trust a word of what Littlefinger says or he ignores Sansa's warnings and trusts Littlefinger.

It's rich coming from Sansa since she's still letting herself be played and manipulated by Littlefinger despite having been a witness to her aunt's murder (Lysa was acting crazy but still) and having been sold out to the Boltons by him. See how she didn't even question him about the Riverlands intel, she just took him at his word and acted (foolishly) on it. Sansa knows Littlefinger closely and yet she's doing exactly what she warns Jon about not doing. 

Littlefinger at least questioning Jon's origins and perhaps suspecting something is a logical plot development that should be included in both the books and the show. After all LF has been portrayed as this nearly omniscient character. Same goes for Varys. Everything about Rhaegar/Lyanna, Ned, ToJ, Jon and his status as Ned's bastard smells from afar. And here are LF and Varys not even raising an eyebrow? I somehow understand smallfolk or even unobservant, indifferent nobles with no elaborate networks of spies and informants to stay oblivious but not those two. I mean the show made Stannis be sceptical of Ned's story.

[Mandzipop]

42 minutes ago, Darksky said:

It's rich coming from Sansa since she's still letting herself be played and manipulated by Littlefinger despite having been a witness to her aunt's murder (Lysa was acting crazy but still) and having been sold out to the Boltons by him. See how she didn't even question him about the Riverlands intel, she just took him at his word and acted (foolishly) on it. Sansa knows Littlefinger closely and yet she's doing exactly what she warns Jon about not doing. 

Littlefinger at least questioning Jon's origins and perhaps suspecting something is a logical plot development that should be included in both the books and the show. After all LF has been portrayed as this nearly omniscient character. Same goes for Varys. Everything about Rhaegar/Lyanna, Ned, ToJ, Jon and his status as Ned's bastard smells from afar. And here are LF and Varys not even raising an eyebrow? I somehow understand smallfolk or even unobservant, indifferent nobles with no elaborate networks of spies and informants to stay oblivious but not those two. I mean the show made Stannis be sceptical of Ned's story.

I do wonder whether show Sansa has the hots for Littlefinger in some perverse and twisted way.

The situation with LF and Varys not knowing about Jon would be a huge plothole in both books and show. The show is hinting towards LF knowing more about the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I'm curious to how much people know about Jon's origins in the show. LF said about Jon being born in the south. Does he mean the south or south of Winterfell? Robb wasn't born in Winterfell, he was born south of Winterfell, so that's not a valid reason. Also I can't see how he wouldn't have actively pursued this question whilst he was still hankering after Cat.

The knowledge of Jon's true identity would be powerful information to LF, but only under the right circumstances. It was completely useless to use it against Ned to gain Cat's favour. There was no sure fire way that that would work. By the time Ned was in Kings Landing, Jon was at the wall. So parking it and seeing if it becomes useful at a later point in time would be logical.

Littlefinger's meeting with Sansa in the godswood suggests that the northern storyline might not be such an isolated plot in season 7. LF says that word of the battle will spread throughout the 7 kingdoms.

[Colonel Green]

6 hours ago, Darksky said:

Littlefinger at least questioning Jon's origins and perhaps suspecting something is a logical plot development that should be included in both the books and the show. After all LF has been portrayed as this nearly omniscient character. Same goes for Varys. Everything about Rhaegar/Lyanna, Ned, ToJ, Jon and his status as Ned's bastard smells from afar. And here are LF and Varys not even raising an eyebrow? I somehow understand smallfolk or even unobservant, indifferent nobles with no elaborate networks of spies and informants to stay oblivious but not those two.

Littlefinger didn't have an elaborate network of spies at the time of Jon's birth.  He was a punk kid stewing in resentments back in the Fingers.  By the time he got rich and powerful, years later, what leads would there have been to follow, exactly (which is even more true now, given that various people are speculating he's going to be digging into Jon's background in Season 7; I'm not sure what people envision him doing there)?  And for that matter, I don't really see why he'd bother; Ned banged some commoner, they had a kid, all of that is public knowledge.  Digging up her name or whatever doesn't materially improve the situation.

And even more fundamentally, Littlefinger is a guy who believes what he wants to believe.  Ned cheating on Catelyn would be something he wouldn't question, because it would gratify him and appeal to his cynical nature.

4 hours ago, Mandzipop said:

The situation with LF and Varys not knowing about Jon would be a huge plothole in both books and show. The show is hinting towards LF knowing more about the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I'm curious to how much people know about Jon's origins in the show. LF said about Jon being born in the south. Does he mean the south or south of Winterfell? Robb wasn't born in Winterfell, he was born south of Winterfell, so that's not a valid reason. Also I can't see how he wouldn't have actively pursued this question whilst he was still hankering after Cat.

The story of Jon's birth is that he was conceived as the result of an affair Ned had during the rebellion, after his marriage to Catelyn.  It's "common knowledge" that he was born in the south.

[illinifan]

On 8/28/2016 at 10:47 PM, nothatso said:

I don't think the "subversion" of Dany and/or Jon's plots is meant to be "they suck at leading and that's that". If I remember correctly, Martin criticized the way Tolkein wrote Aragorn because you don't see him grow into the man he is, he just kind of shows up and is good at almost everything. I think it's likely that one or both of them are meant to simply be shown growing into their leadership positions rather than just instantly being awesome at them.

Agreed.  The whole arc is they grow as leaders.  Martin is criticizing the story type where the hidden prince/ princess, who grew up as a servant on a farm for his/ her own protection, suddenly becomes an awesome ruler.  That is ridiculous given that the protagonist has no experience as a ruler.  Jon and Dany can grow into decent leaders but they currently suck at it, which makes sense given their backgrounds.

[Mandzipop]

Another option for this story could be that a blizzard sets in and although they have a large amount of supplies, Winterfell is absolutely jam packed to the rafters and these supplies will quickly dwindle.

[Nocturne]

I really hope that quote from D&D is just them trying to mislead the fans somehow. Jon is as pragmatic as they come, he is not his father. He won't blindly trust no one, well maybe except for Tormund cause he knows that guy is straight up.