MIA Dragons Post DotD

[Oracle.Clear.Rivers]

25 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

What if Cannibal has become an ice dragon in some manner?

Cannibal as he is is scary enough. Making him into an ice dragon would make it even worse. *shudders* Even more terrifying is if that did happen, how powerful are the Others to turn a magical creature of fire to be of ice?

23 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Aegon bonding the Cannibal is a non-starter for me. The Cannibal could not be mastered for centuries, despite countless attempts by real Targaryen descendants. Targaryen blood clearly does not work on him. So he most likely is not a Targaryen Dragon, but a Dragon from another bloodline.

But what if fAegon is from another bloodline? He's not yet confirmed to be either a Targaryen (which is bs) or a Blackfyre (from a matrilineal line). So we can not yet rule out the possibility that he has a dragon lord ancestor down the line who just haven't got the resources or people for their noble house to survive like the Targaryens, Velaryons, and Celtigars. I don't think that wouldn't matter in the end though if that's the case, the blood would be too "watered down" that Cannibal might not recognize it at all.

23 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Aegon the Conqueror himself would then not be able to master him. A different kind of magic will be needed for a rider of Cannibal. Maybe some kind of warging skill coupled with Dragonlord blood. Something which Jon alone in all the world has to offer. Maybe a Dragonhorn could work, I guess. But it seems unlikely to happen, with the Horn being in Slaver's Bay at the moment.

That's of course if Bran is not the one to master him, which I would not find implausible either. But a Blackfyre - who is merely a Targeryen with a different name? Not a chance.

I can get behind this idea. Starks have powerful magic in their blood that it won't be far fetched for them to control Cannibal if he still lives. Bran especially who is training to be the Three Eyed Raven. Jon? I think it would be a 50/50 chance. His Targaryen blood could either enhance or decrease the potency of his Stark abilities controlling a dragon. I know he was described as powerful but would it be enough for a dragon like Cannibal who is highly resistant to Targaryens before?

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The Cannibal could lay dormant or in stasis/hibernation in his collapsed lair on Dragonstone, though. Dragonstone was introduced as this ominous, dreadful place back in the Prologue of ACoK but George never delivered on that. He might have plans to do it in the future.

Enjoyable thread.I recently started re-reading the Davos chapters. This is a conversation between Davos & Saan. Martin did a good job writing Saan; humor, intelligence and practicality.

SoS c.54 He [Davos] raised his eyes to gaze up at the walls. In place of merlons, a thousand grotesques and gargoyles looked down on him, each different from all the others; wyverns, griffins, demons, manticores, minotaurs, basilisks, hellhounds, cockatrices, and a thousand queerer creatures sprouted from the castle's battlements as if they'd grown there. And the dragons were everywhere.

The Great Hall was a dragon lying on its belly. Men entered through its open mouth. The kitchens were a dragon curled up in a ball, with the smoke and steam of the ovens vented through its nostrils. The towers were dragons hunched above the walls or poised for flight; the Windwyrm seemed to scream defiance, while Sea Dragon Tower gazed serenely out across the waves. Smaller dragons framed the gates. Dragon claws emerged from walls to grasp at torches, great stone wings enfolded the smith and armory, and tails formed arches, bridges, and exterior stairs.

Davos had often heard it said that the wizards of Valyria did not cut and chisel as common masons did, but worked stone with fire and magic as a potter might work clay. But now he wondered. What if they were real dragons, somehow turned to stone?

[Saan]"If the red woman brings them to life, the castle will come crashing down, I am thinking. What kind of dragons are full of rooms and stairs and furniture? And windows. And chimneys. And privy shafts."

This Cannibal could be part of Dragonstone.  I'm joking around.Cannibal would be leather and bone by now. BUT I do tink dat da eggs that were given to Dany kinda sorta maybe might be Sheepstealers.

[Lurid Jester]

16 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That bothered me too initially, until I thought about how "suddenly" Martin introduced other major aspects of his story. Like Aegon, for example, who frankly arrived so late that one could recognize from the very start that he was a fake.

Same with Quentyn, Arriane and Doran, who all arrived only in Book 4 and now feel like they've always been part of the story. Not to mention Euron, who was barely mentioned before Book 4, and yet now is a major part of the latter part of the series.

Problem is that dragons are significantly different than fAegon or Quentyn, etc.  They are presented right off the bat as extinct.  Their rebirth is a miracle that no one believes possible at first  

Having a fully grown dragon pop up completely undermines the magic of it and the implied connection that magic has to dragons in general.  

The argument could be made that magic is as powerful as the number of living dragons, and 4 > 1 so it still fits a bit I suppose.  I still feel like it would cheapen things a bit. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

20 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

That bothered me too initially, until I thought about how "suddenly" Martin introduced other major aspects of his story. Like Aegon, for example, who frankly arrived so late that one could recognize from the very start that he was a fake.

Same with Quentyn, Arriane and Doran, who all arrived only in Book 4 and now feel like they've always been part of the story. Not to mention Euron, who was barely mentioned before Book 4, and yet now is a major part of the latter part of the series.

Martin has no qualms about having new plot elements arrive rather late, and making them feel familiar after only three chapters. Asha only gets 3 POV chapters, if I recall correctly, and those only in Dance, but because they are spread across the entire Book 5, it feels like we have known her for ages.

I am one of those who have a far larger affinity to POV characters introducted in Book 1, and look with  some distaste at later additions being forced down our throats in the way that Jaime, Cersei, Theon etc. were. But if Martin can do it that late with some of the examples above, he can make the Cannibal's arrival in Book 6 or 7 work too.

I don't know. Wrt the latecomers, the (some) ground was already made so that when they were introduced there was a feeling of natural fitting into the story. I just don't see any of it for pre-existing dragons, it seems to me that all relevent speculation relies exclusively on the companion novels.

Of course I can't exclude the posibility to be done, and even to be a pleasant surprise - I just think that, judging by what's written so far, the odds are really pretty small.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

11 minutes ago, Oracle.Clear.Rivers said:

Cannibal as he is is scary enough. Making him into an ice dragon would make it even worse. *shudders* Even more terrifying is if that did happen, how powerful are the Others to turn a magical creature of fire to be of ice?

Well, I suggested that as a possibility because then it could explain his abnormally long life, the fact that no one has seen or heard of such a huge dragon anywhere, as well as the possible clue of the curiously named 'Cannibal Bay' having tales of ice dragon activity.

It would require a massive suspension of disbelief to explain it away if Cannibal was hiding on Dragonstone this whole time.

[Lord Varys]

Guys, skip the idea that there are only two books. We would be preparing for the final battle if that was the case. We would know more or less who the Others are and what they want and the Wall would have fallen in the last book or the book before that. The idea that this story is going to wrapped up in two books doesn't make any sense.

@Free Northman Reborn

I gave exactly the same argument about a cannibalistic diet possibly prolonging the life of the Cannibal. Just as blood magic might have preserved the life and beauty of Serenei of Lys and Shiera Seastar (so that the latter might still be around today).

However, that is not really necessary. We have no clue about the natural lifespan of a dragon. Balerion could have died of some sickness or a wound gone bad.

The idea of the Cannibal being a non-Targaryen dragon from times past doesn't make much sense, though. Even if this is the case this doesn't mean that a Targaryen cannot claim a dragon. It is just speculation that a dragon has to be of the bloodline your family is bound to. Perhaps a Valyrian dragonlord has the ability to claim any dragon, even a dragon he or she has nothing to do with because all dragons are related to each other the magic affects them all?

We don't know yet.

But the main problem I have with the Skagos idea is just that nothing indicates the Cannibal ever flew there nor do I think this is a place where he could hide or be forgotten. The Skagosi would have seen him arrive there and thus Westeros would eventually have learned that he (once) was there just as people learned that Nettles and Sheepstealer disappeared into the mountains.

If the Cannibal is on Dragonstone and if he is supposed to be claimed by a rider then Aegon or Euron are the best candidates. Simply because they are closest to the island right now. That doesn't mean they will remain the only riders, though. Not to mention that the beast could also just wake up to terrorize the land without ever being claimed by anyone (although I consider that less likely).

16 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

It would require a massive suspension of disbelief to explain it away if Cannibal was hiding on Dragonstone this whole time.

Not really. Just imagine a collapsed cave entrance and a lot of rabble/lava on top of it. Nobody can get, nobody can get out. Until such a time as the cave is opened again and the dragon wakes up.

Sure, it would need some preparation. Say, people speculating about the dragons of the Dance before that happens, mentioning the survivors and which ones of those are accounted for. But that wouldn't be a far-fetched topic for a conversation or the quiet musings of a POV. Dragons are a reality now, and more and more people will have react to them.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Lord Varys,

It may be so, but I think that would definitely feel like an asspull for readers. Not saying my ice dragon theory or Cannibal hiding on Skagos won't feel the same, but we've already seen Dragonstone through POVs, where GRRM could have dropped hints if he liked. Since we havent seen Cannibal Bay or Skagos, to me it would be less of a deus ex machina.

Since we've also seen how difficult it was to actually control Cannibal, Aegon coming out of nowhere and controlling it is another development which would be very hard to swallow. 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Lord Varys,

It may be so, but I think that would definitely feel like an asspull for readers. Not saying my ice dragon theory or Cannibal hiding on Skagos won't feel the same, but we've already seen Dragonstone through POVs, where GRRM could have dropped hints if he liked. Since we havent seen Cannibal Bay or Skagos, to me it would be less of a deus ex machina.

Since we've also seen how difficult it was to actually control Cannibal, Aegon coming out of nowhere and controlling it is another development which would be very hard to swallow. 

I'm not really saying I'm buying the idea. I just like to consider it. Just as I very much like the idea that Prince Daemon survived his fall into the Gods Eye, made it to the Isle of Faces, became a Green Man, and is going to show up later on in the story. That would be fun.

That said, there are hints that something fishy is going on on Dragonstone. It is not just the ominous feeling, it is also Stannis and Mel investigating the tunnels and caverns beneath the Dragonmount off-screen in ASoS. It feels as if George is not yet done with the place.

And who knows? Perhaps the Cannibal isn't going to be all that fierce upon his return to life and thus in a shape to be claimed. Historically only fools seemed to have tried to claim the Cannibal, anyway. Nobody tried to do it as far as we know during the Dance.

But if ten-year-old Aemond can claim Vhagar who was even larger and possibly as foul-tempered as the Cannibal then everything is possible in that department, really.

[BricksAndSparrows]

When Bran had that super dream in aGoT he saw Dragons flying around in the east. Everything else going on in the dream was current so I imagine there are other dragons out there.

[Lurid Jester]

27 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

When Bran had that super dream in aGoT he saw Dragons flying around in the east. Everything else going on in the dream was current so I imagine there are other dragons out there.

I thought he saw, as interpreted by Summer, a "snake".

Quote

The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars.

kindle version, ch 69  

I have some doubts that there was an actual winged snake, much less a dragon, above Winterfell.  There would have been far too many people who would have seen it.  I think perhaps Summer was interpreting the ribbon of smoke rising from the flames of the city. 

But maybe I'm mixed up about the scene you're referencing.  I don't remember Bran dreaming or seeing dragons in the first book. 

[Sensenmenn]

4 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

I thought he saw, as interpreted by Summer, a "snake".

I have some doubts that there was an actual winged snake, much less a dragon, above Winterfell.  There would have been far too many people who would have seen it.  I think perhaps Summer was interpreting the ribbon of smoke rising from the flames of the city. 

But maybe I'm mixed up about the scene you're referencing.  I don't remember Bran dreaming or seeing dragons in the first book. 

No that is the dragon rising from the first keep theory which i do support and think it will be jons dragon. But what hes talking about is a vision(not warging) where bran sees into the far east beyond ashai where dragons still lived.

[PrinceHenryris]

There was a thread like this a few years ago.  Unfortunately I can't seem to find it, but I basically said that I think the Cannibal is dead, but it would be pretty cool if he showed up in Westeroos with a pissed-off six year old on his back.

[Runaway Penguin]

Suddenly popping p dragon for Jon out of nowhere would be... Disappointing. Jon has to make do with what he has, he has to try to forge alliances and stuff... His story is not one of easymode dragon.

 

I always interpreted what summer saw as just the smoke of burning WF.

[Dex drako]

12 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

 

I believe there should have been clues in the books by now, if an older dragon had survived and was to play any role.

not saying its true but there is what could be seen as clues to an older dragon in the book for quite some time even is everyone blows it off. after all Bran/Summer did  see a "winged snake" over winterfell while it burned

oops didn't see the second page where this was already talked about sorry.

[Lurid Jester]

7 hours ago, Sensenmenn said:

No that is the dragon rising from the first keep theory which i do support and think it will be jons dragon. But what hes talking about is a vision(not warging) where bran sees into the far east beyond ashai where dragons still lived.

Damn, don't remember that at all, and that was in book 1?

[Free Northman Reborn]

5 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Damn, don't remember that at all, and that was in book 1?

From memory (and I last read this some years ago), the wording went something like this:

In his dream, his spirit travelled across the Narrow Sea, where he looked down upon Catelyn and Ser Rodrik on their ship travelling to King's Landing. He even saw Rodrik getting sea sick, I believe. The point is, this proved that it was a real-time vision, of the present. Then his spirit travels further, viewing some stuff across the sea, and finally all the way to Ashaii by the Shadow, "where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise", or something along those lines.

 

[Lurid Jester]

@Free Northman Reborn  Thanks. I'm going to go track it down for a reread.  Kinda bummed that I don't remember it (apparently I'm old ).

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

It's interesting to discuss to what degree things that appear in the companion books may influence the main story. I think the best example of this we have so far is Bloodraven. His character appears in the main story, but you do not have to know his entire backstory in order to accept his role in the series. Cannibal suddenly appearing without having been referenced once in the ain series might work, so long as a plausible explanation is given to the reader. 

[Darkstream]

3 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

Damn, don't remember that at all, and that was in book 1?

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

[Lurid Jester]

32 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

I didn't take that as literal because it sounds more like purple(ish) prose to me.   Fanciful thoughts in a child's brain.  "Beneath the sunrise"?  Where is that exactly?

Makes me think for of the markers on old maps that say "here be monsters".