MIA Dragons Post DotD

[BricksAndSparrows]

16 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

I thought he saw, as interpreted by Summer, a "snake".

I have some doubts that there was an actual winged snake, much less a dragon, above Winterfell.  There would have been far too many people who would have seen it.  I think perhaps Summer was interpreting the ribbon of smoke rising from the flames of the city. 

But maybe I'm mixed up about the scene you're referencing.  I don't remember Bran dreaming or seeing dragons in the first book. 

I'm talking about Bran's first chapter after his fall. It's where he meets the 3 Eyed crow for the first time.

He see's a bunch of things that are actually happening in real time. I think he see Rodrick Cassel on the ship he's on with Cat. Bran also see's a couple more things, but I don't have the book with me (at work.) But they are things going on in other chapters. I think he see's Jon at the Wall and maybe Sansa and Arya on the King's Road. Though I could be wrong.

Anyway I noticed it on my last reread a month ago. I figured, okay, well everything else Bran is seeing is happening in real time, why not the dragons?

[Oracle.Clear.Rivers]

On 8/25/2016 at 2:52 AM, Clegane'sPup said:

This Cannibal could be part of Dragonstone.  I'm joking around.Cannibal would be leather and bone by now. BUT I do tink dat da eggs that were given to Dany kinda sorta maybe might be Sheepstealers.

Before TPaTQ, I though those might just be eggs salvaged somewhere. After reading the novella, I thought that maybe they're Cannibal's. Maybe they're Sheepstealer's too as you've pointed out. However, both dragons were male. Can they carry/lay (what's the correct term?) eggs like sea horses? How could they reproduce when there's no female dragon around? Can they alter their gender overtime then to work around that problem? Do dragons in ASoIaF need intercourse for reproduction? As far as I remember in the books, Targaryens only get dragons by hatching the eggs but the eggs origins' are never explained or maybe it was explained and I just missed it.

On 8/25/2016 at 2:58 AM, Lurid Jester said:

Having a fully grown dragon pop up completely undermines the magic of it and the implied connection that magic has to dragons in general.  

The argument could be made that magic is as powerful as the number of living dragons, and 4 > 1 so it still fits a bit I suppose.  I still feel like it would cheapen things a bit. 

This made me realize something. Please bear with me. This is going to be a long one. Sorry. So here's what we know so far about magic in Westeros:

1. It definitely existed.

2. Magic was at its peak when Valyria still existed.

3. Magic was said to have faded away after the Doom.

Magic and dragons are related. So we can say that these creatures are conduits of it. The greater their numbers, the easier it is for people to access magic. This can explain why when Valyria existed, magic was at its peak since there were plenty of dragons. There may be other conduits of magic too but right now, the only thing I can guess are weirwoods. Brandon Snow seemed to have crafted arrows from him to kill the dragons of Aegon I and his sisters. What would a flimsy wooden arrow be against a dragon unless it was as magical as the creature itself and just as deadly?

Anyway, since dragons are magic conduits, then if they are extinct then access to magic should be entirely closed, right? I think this is how the maesters thought too hence their claims of magic fading away after the Doom. But they are wrong. Magic still accessible but just a small amount of it.

Here's what constitute as magic in ASoIaF: elemental control, divination, skinchanging, necromancy, glamoring, and resurrection. Some of these still happen in Westeros before Dany hatched her dragons eggs and after the extinction of dragons in TDOD. At the top of my head:

Elemental control = Thoros of Myr's flaming sword (if I remember it right)

Divination = Daemon the Drunk, Bloodraven, Shiera Seastar, Maggy the Frog, The woods witch that told King Jaeherys II a TPTWP prophecy

skinchanging = The Wildlings

Magic is still accessible and, therefore, there are still conduits in Westeros, which I think are dragons and weirwoods. 

All of the remaining weirwoods are in the North and beyond the wall. The Wildlings live in there. Plus, the remaining Children of the Forest are north of the wall like them. These may be the reasons why the Wildlings had many skinchangers. They have greater access to magic compared to those south of the Wall.

What about the people that displayed magic in the Southron then - a place where all weirwoods had already been cut down? Perhaps, they have conduit in a dragon that lays dormant.

So what did Dany hatching dragon eggs accomplish then if there was still magic in Westeros after all? Did it still have a point? Yes, because she made magic more accessible again. The presence of three more dragons might have started the awakening of the dormant conduit. So magic is slowly getting stronger in Southron Westeros. Here's a comparison:

Pre-Dany & her dragons: The warlocks from Qarth that Lord Tarly commissioned to "fix" Sam failed. How could they fail if they can do magic in Qarth and Westeros still has magic? The Southron magic conduit is dormant and unlike the Westerosi magic users, the wizards are foreigners. So either the dormant dragon conduit cannot support them or they do not have an affinity with it. So they failed.

Post-Dany and her dragons: Melisandre used shadows to kill Renly and she was successful. The slowly awakening conduit is beginning to give greater access to magic that even foreigners can use it or because Melisandre has an affinity to it.

Anyway, this is already too long and this idea still has a lot of holes in it because what about during Post Doom-TDOD and non-Targaryen magic users? I'll just work on it and make it better later. But my entire point is, IF a fully grown dragon does shows up, it won't negate Dany's miracle for me. It would highlight her deed instead because that dormant dragon only woke up since Dany hatched dragons. Same with the WW.

On 8/25/2016 at 3:23 AM, Lord Varys said:

I gave exactly the same argument about a cannibalistic diet possibly prolonging the life of the Cannibal. Just as blood magic might have preserved the life and beauty of Serenei of Lys and Shiera Seastar (so that the latter might still be around today).

There is a theory that Shiera = Quaithe. Though I've just read here that maybe Melisandre = Shiera too.

On 8/25/2016 at 3:23 AM, Lord Varys said:

The idea of the Cannibal being a non-Targaryen dragon from times past doesn't make much sense, though. Even if this is the case this doesn't mean that a Targaryen cannot claim a dragon. It is just speculation that a dragon has to be of the bloodline your family is bound to. Perhaps a Valyrian dragonlord has the ability to claim any dragon, even a dragon he or she has nothing to do with because all dragons are related to each other the magic affects them all?

We don't know yet.

The forging of valyrian steel is not the only thing lost during the Doom. I really wish Sam will find some info about them at the Citadel (highly unlikely). We can only speculate which is both fun and frustrating.

On 8/25/2016 at 3:23 AM, Lord Varys said:

If the Cannibal is on Dragonstone and if he is supposed to be claimed by a rider then Aegon or Euron are the best candidates. Simply because they are closest to the island right now. That doesn't mean they will remain the only riders, though. Not to mention that the beast could also just wake up to terrorize the land without ever being claimed by anyone (although I consider that less likely).

I think Euron has the best chance because of the dragon horn.

On 8/25/2016 at 3:46 AM, Lord Varys said:

I'm not really saying I'm buying the idea. I just like to consider it. Just as I very much like the idea that Prince Daemon survived his fall into the Gods Eye, made it to the Isle of Faces, became a Green Man, and is going to show up later on in the story. That would be fun.

That said, there are hints that something fishy is going on on Dragonstone. It is not just the ominous feeling, it is also Stannis and Mel investigating the tunnels and caverns beneath the Dragonmount off-screen in ASoS. It feels as if George is not yet done with the place.

And who knows? Perhaps the Cannibal isn't going to be all that fierce upon his return to life and thus in a shape to be claimed. Historically only fools seemed to have tried to claim the Cannibal, anyway. Nobody tried to do it as far as we know during the Dance.

But if ten-year-old Aemond can claim Vhagar who was even larger and possibly as foul-tempered as the Cannibal then everything is possible in that department, really.

I agree with this. Though I might add a few things:

- Someone did try to claim Cannibal. It was Silver Denys. Cannibal ripped his arm off before eating him and his sons.

- I know you said Shireen's dreams of getting eaten by a dragon might have nothing to do with it but I really think it does. She only started dreaming about it when in Dragonstone. It could be Cannibal's presence resonating to her Targaryen ancestry. I've yet to check the other books to see if she still has that dream even after leaving Dragonstone though.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Just regarding Cannibal's origin.

We have one reference to the smallfolk of Dragonstone believing that he predated the Targaryen arrival on Dragonstone. This is a very weird line, and completely unique to the Cannibal. No other dragon has any similar reference or suggestion surrounding its origin. In fact, it stands out as an anomaly among all the Targaryen dragons.

It is either completely meaningless, which would seem a bit pointless, or it is a hint to Cannibal's uniqueness among the Targaryen dragons.

Now, if the Cannibal indeed lived on Dragonstone before 114BC, or whenever the Targaryens exact arrival date was, then by default he will not be a Targaryen lineage dragon. And that opens up a whole new set of possibilities regarding his origin, and his purpose in the story.

[Clegane'sPup]

11 hours ago, Oracle.Clear.Rivers said:

Before TPaTQ, I though those might just be eggs salvaged somewhere. After reading the novella, I thought that maybe they're Cannibal's. Maybe they're Sheepstealer's too as you've pointed out. However, both dragons were male. Can they carry/lay (what's the correct term?) eggs like sea horses? How could they reproduce when there's no female dragon around? Can they alter their gender overtime then to work around that problem? Do dragons in ASoIaF need intercourse for reproduction? As far as I remember in the books, Targaryens only get dragons by hatching the eggs but the eggs origins' are never explained or maybe it was explained and I just missed it.

You’re asking the wrong person. I’ve only read the novella once.  My kinda sorta idea when yapping with LV is based on Caraxes scream when Nettles and Sheepstealer left. The only reason I discovered the quote is because I think Viserion picked Ben Plumm. Dany’s dragons are being fed & the pit they frequent is the one containing mutton.

How the prince and his bastard girl spent their last night beneath Lord Mooton’s roof is not recorded, but as dawn broke they appeared together in the yard, and Prince Daemon helped Nettles saddle Sheepstealer one last time. It was her custom to feed him each day before she flew; dragons bend easier to their rider’s will when full. That morning she fed him a black ram, the largest in all Maidenpool, slitting the ram’s throat herself. Her riding leathers were stained with blood when she mounted her dragon, Maester Norren records, and “her cheeks were stained with tears.” No word of farewell was spoken betwixt man and maid, but as Sheepstealer beat his leathery brown wings and climbed into the dawn sky, Caraxes raised his head and gave a scream that shattered every window in Jonquil’s Tower. High above the town, Nettles turned her dragon toward the Bay of Crabs, and vanished in the morning mists, never to be seen again at court or castle.

There may very well be some information as to the description of dragon procreation in the books. You write some interesting posts.

[Clegane'sPup]

Did a bit of checking around.

Aemon says to Sam: What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.

I guess Aemon is remembering reading Septon Barth’s book Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

Which brings up the Alchemist & his desire for Archmaester Walgraves’s key which can open any door in the Citadel.

BUT in WOIAF this is written: The belief that dragons could change sex at need is erroneous, according to Maester Anson's Truth, rooted in a misunderstanding of the esoteric metaphor that Barth preferred when discussing the higher mysteries.

So I have what Martin wrote in the novels and I have the WOIAF clip that refutes what was written in the novels AND there might even be a snippet on the App. Please forgive my spelling mistakes, I get the ie and the ae mixed up. Reading the novels it could be ei or ea.

[Darkstream]

On 8/26/2016 at 2:08 AM, Oracle.Clear.Rivers said:

Magic and dragons are related. So we can say that these creatures are conduits of it.

While it seems that the two are related, we really don't know if dragons are actually a conduit of magic. It could be that the strength of magic is growing due to the birth of Danny's dragons, but it could also be that the birth of Danny's dragons were only possible because of the increased strength of magic.  

Now if the former is true, then it would have to be a fact that there are surviving dragons somewhere on the planet, as we do know, however weak it was, that magic did exist before the birth of Viserion, Rhaegal and Drogon,

ETA: Perhaps my statement that it would have to be a fact that there are surviving dragons was a little presumptuous, as you have stated, they may not be the only conduit of magic.

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I guess Aemon is remembering reading Septon Barth’s book Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

Blood and Fire or the The Death of the Dragons isn't the same book as Barth's Unnatural History. But Jaqen-Pate clearly would be after the former book if the hint in ADwD was supposed to point towards the Citadel plot.

Yandel would cover the orthodox view in TWoIaF that dragons cannot change their sex. But that seems to be wrong.

[Clegane'sPup]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Blood and Fire or the The Death of the Dragons isn't the same book as Barth's Unnatural History. But Jaqen-Pate clearly would be after the former book if the hint in ADwD was supposed to point towards the Citadel plot.

Yandel would cover the orthodox view in TWoIaF that dragons cannot change their sex. But that seems to be wrong.

Thanks for clearing that up. I don't know how you and some of the other keep track of this stuff. Argh.

[Curled Finger]

What an interesting topic, thanks OP.  Open season here as I only have a question. 

1  I thought Silverwing only disappeared not conclusively dead.

2  I took Cannibal's residence at Dragonstone predating the Targs was a sort of call back to The Ice Dragon basically validating the idea that     there were dragons in Westeros prior to the Targs.  

3. What is making all that racket in the caves at Hardhome? 

[Free Northman Reborn]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

What an interesting topic, thanks OP.  Open season here as I only have a question. 

1  I thought Silverwing only disappeared not conclusively dead.

2  I took Cannibal's residence at Dragonstone predating the Targs was a sort of call back to The Ice Dragon basically validating the idea that     there were dragons in Westeros prior to the Targs.  

3. What is making all that racket in the caves at Hardhome? 

Before the Targaryens, there hadn't been dragons in Westeros for thousands of years - other than the odd visiting Dragonlord from Valyria. Cannibal on Dragonstone would have had one of two potential origins: He is either a hatchling from a clutch of eggs left behind by a previous Valyrian Dragonlord who visited/resided on Dragonstone before 114 BC. Or he is a descendant from a previously unknown lineage of non-Valyrian wild Dragons, dating back to before the Long Night.

After all, if Dragons survived the Long Night in the volcanos of Valyria, why could some not have survived in a volcano like Dragonstone too? And Cannibal could then be a survivor of this completely independent lineage of Dragons, that had no connection to Valyria whatsoever.

In fact, he might have an eerie similarity to King Kong, being the last lone survivor of his kind, on an isolated island.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Cannibal on Dragonstone would have had one of two potential origins: He is either a hatchling from a clutch of eggs left behind by a previous Valyrian Dragonlord who visited/resided on Dragonstone before 114 BC. Or he is a descendant from a previously unknown lineage of non-Valyrian wild Dragons, dating back to before the Long Night.

Actually, there is another option: The Cannibal might have been a descendant of the dragons the Valyrian dragonlords who originally raised the citadel of Dragonstone and took possession of the island brought with them. Those weren't Targaryens, after all. And the idea that the smallfolk had some special knowledge about events lying hundreds of years in the past around the time of the Dance does not make all that much sense. I mean, this guy Silver Denys got caught up in his delusion that he was a son of Maegor the Cruel when Maegor had major issues fathering living children and the man must have been about eighty years old to have a chance of being fathered by Maegor.

If a dragon population survived for thousands of years on Dragonstone why the hell did nobody realize this? Westeros was pretty close and the Cannibal would have to eat other meat while there were no dragons around. Not to mention that Aenar and his descendants most likely would have dealt with the Cannibal had he been a threat to them and their descendants and their dragons upon their arrival.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, there is another option: The Cannibal might have been a descendant of the dragons the Valyrian dragonlords who originally raised the citadel of Dragonstone and took possession of the island brought with them. Those weren't Targaryens, after all. And the idea that the smallfolk had some special knowledge about events lying hundreds of years in the past around the time of the Dance does not make all that much sense. I mean, this guy Silver Denys got caught up in his delusion that he was a son of Maegor the Cruel when Maegor had major issues fathering living children and the man must have been about eighty years old to have a chance of being fathered by Maegor.

If a dragon population survived for thousands of years on Dragonstone why the hell did nobody realize this? Westeros was pretty close and the Cannibal would have to eat other meat while there were no dragons around. Not to mention that Aenar and his descendants most likely would have dealt with the Cannibal had he been a threat to them and their descendants and their dragons upon their arrival.

The bolded falls under my Option A: I.E. he is a descendant of another Valyrian dragonlord family's dragons. Whether visiting or residing.

Regarding the smallfolk. The point is that they seem to have tales of dragons (coincidentally resembling the Cannibal) occupying the volcano before the Targaryens arrived. This could take the form of ancestral stories of the servants of House Santaryon or whatever the previous Valyrian owners were called, suffering from the scourge of a resident dragon until Santaryon's son rode out to slay it, but was devoured instead, or any one of a hundred similar stories.

It is quite easy to imagine certain elements of the story allowing it to be dated to prior to 114BC. I still maintain that Martin included that very odd bit of legend for a reason.

[Lord Varys]

@Free Northman Reborn

Well, you have to go back and check the actual legend Yandel gives us. He says smallfolk claims the Cannibal was there since before the Targaryens came, not since before the Valyrians came. Thus nobody in-universe actually believed that the Cannibal was there before the Valyrians came.

In addition, both Grand Maester Munkun and Septon Barth dismiss this rumor as nonsense. If it was just Munkun I'd be somewhat skeptical but not with Barth involved - especially considering that Barth was about as old Jaehaerys I and would thus have had access to knowledge and reports that might have been no longer (easily) available at the time of the Dance.

It could be that people simply began telling special stories about a special dragon. After all, a cannibalistic dragon most certainly was pretty special and people would have wanted to know/understand why he was behaving this way. An interesting idea would be to think the Cannibal must not like the Targaryens and/or their dragons considering that he was eating the hatchlings. But that must not be the case.

The smallfolk most certainly wouldn't have had reliable accounts about young dragons leaving the hatcheries on Dragonstone. They would only have learned that there was a new wild dragon once they saw him flying about the island.

Parents on Dragonsotne would have told their children to stay clear of the lairs of the wild dragons (and the beasts themselves) and children would always have been asked their elders about the origins of those dragons.

By the time of the Dance the origin of Grey Ghost (the youngest wild dragon) and Sheepstealer was apparently still known (at least to the maesters of this era) but if the Cannibal set himself up as a wild dragon during the reign of the Conqueror or even before the Conquest then nobody might have remembered that during the Dance.

[Nocturne]

Awesome thread and awesome read guys! This inspired me to re-read the books as i honestly have no recollection of these stories.

Also i need to play me some Skyrim as well:D

I do have a question though, if somebody tames a dragon and dies, do we know if that dragon can be tamed again?

 

[Darkstream]

5 hours ago, Nocturne said:

Awesome thread and awesome read guys! This inspired me to re-read the books as i honestly have no recollection of these stories.

Also i need to play me some Skyrim as well:D

I do have a question though, if somebody tames a dragon and dies, do we know if that dragon can be tamed again?

 

Yes, Balerion was was one of the five dragons Aenar Targaryen brought with him when he fled to Dragonstone, and was later claimed by Aegon, and after his death, by Maegor l, and again claimed by another rider, Viserys I.

ETA: Or to be more accurate, one should say, Balerion claimed each of these riders.

[Dex drako]

an interesting possibility for Cannibal lineage comes from the info Sam found about the first men using dragon steal against the WW. it means there could have been dragons in westeros in the distant past so he could be a remnant from that line.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 8/24/2016 at 2:23 PM, Lord Varys said:

Guys, skip the idea that there are only two books. We would be preparing for the final battle if that was the case. We would know more or less who the Others are and what they want and the Wall would have fallen in the last book or the book before that. The idea that this story is going to wrapped up in two books doesn't make any sense.

@Free Northman Reborn

I gave exactly the same argument about a cannibalistic diet possibly prolonging the life of the Cannibal. Just as blood magic might have preserved the life and beauty of Serenei of Lys and Shiera Seastar (so that the latter might still be around today).

However, that is not really necessary. We have no clue about the natural lifespan of a dragon. Balerion could have died of some sickness or a wound gone bad.

Just a point of parliamentary procedure: We know Balerion died of old age. So I would find Cannibal still being alive after a minimum of 250 years to be very surprising. That leaves either magical hibernation or his death. I believe he's just simply dead. I don't find the Skagos explanation remotely credible either.

As to "so much work for a miniscule character", well I have to dismiss that. He did just as much work for Silverwing and Sheepstealer. All we get about her is that she went wild and made a lair at Red Lake. Cannibal was never tamed at left Dragonstone. Sheepstealer almost certainly went to the Vale and then disappeared. Their contributions are different but all fairly insignificant. Silverwing got used briefly in war like Sheepstealer. Cannibal's presence allowed for inaction on the Black's garrison and let Aegon II take over DS without much resistance. That's really the extent I would expect a non-POV minor character. Bold John Roxton killed Hugh Hardhammer. We have yet to see any of House Roxton or their VS sword since. VS might be useful for when the Others roll south.