Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I've wondered about Howland's presence as well.  Is it possible he became Ned's squire after the Tourney? I'm reminded of Podrick saving Tyrion's life at the Battle of the Blackwater.

I think Ned's narrative has an overriding theme of the pledge to protect. Something that he discusses with Robert concerning Robin Arryn. He makes the odd statement that he would rather entrust a child to a pit viper than Tywin Lannister.  It is when he starts searching the mystery of Robert's bastards that the promises he made to Lyanna come back to haunt him.  Finally, there is the sense that he failed to protect the children or uphold his pledge.   

Squire would probably not be his position. He didn't plan to become a knight and Ned was not a knight. Maybe as "priest" of the Old Gods?

The "pit viper" makes me wonder if he trusted some child to Oberyn :-)

If his narrative is focused on protecting her sister's child, why the shame? Jon is almost a man safe at The Wall.

[Black Crow]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The narrative is not complete. Why does Ned only have sad and bitter memories? What did they find that warranted pulling down the tower? Why is Howland (the guy that visited the magical Isles of Faces) in all parts of that tale? Just as a witness?

If you search Ned's chapters, he almost never thinks about Jon. When Robert mentions him, he thinks of lost honour; when Cersei mentions him he has no reaction; when Varys mentions him, Ned just thinks of shame and sorrow. I could never explain Ned's shame if he was just protecting her sister's son.

I certainly think that the first is worthy of thought. The tower itself presents real problems. Being a Scot currently living in Northumberland I am surrounded by towers great and small. Demolishing them is not easy and I don't care how many horses you might have to help or how many fires you light inside it. GRRM writes that they did it and used the stones as cairns for the dead, so who are we to doubt him, but it does very strongly suggest that the old watchtower was already a ruin and a landmark for a meeting rather than a dwelling place.

As to Ned's feelings for Jon, I'm reluctant to read too much into them, while your point is taken there is a mystery to be preserved.

[wolfmaid7]

5 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

@wolfmaid7

Since your RB+L=J essay was first posted at TLH, how many people would you say have been persuaded by your theory that Robert and Lyanna are Jon's parents?

A  few but i don't see why that's relevant if any theory is true or not.

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Wolfmaid, I am not your lapdog. In case it escaped you, I am a different time zone and happen to have a life outside the net. I can write down the "staples" in a couple of days or so if no-one else steps in meanwhile, but quit acting as if I was avoiding the answer when I stated plainly right in the first response that Real Life is currently making demands on me that need to be adressed first.

I am quite surprised that with your profound knowledge of mythology, you cannot grasp the significance of Robert being cuckolded (and Cersei devouring his "progeny"), but if you feel like needing further education, I am sure that you can find enough sources on your own.

I see your point, but what would be the narrative point of a stillbirth? Of the secrecy?

Ygrain i wasn't holding you under a thumb or anything concerning this.I said anyone in the RLJ camp can do this.If i wanted to say you were avoiding i would have said so. I know the pressure's of real life have it myself so i will say this again ."You" aren't under any kind of pressure to do this by a given time,i'm sure someone else as you said might post it.

Yet praise be to the Mother a couple of them were saved,hidden away and positioned quite nicely.This is one of the oldest story in myth and religion.Moses,Jesus,Hansel and Gretel,Remus and Ramus.Dany,Aegon,Edric,Gendry.I mean what's the point here?

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I certainly think that the first is worthy of thought. The tower itself presents real problems. Being a Scot currently living in Northumberland I am surrounded by towers great and small. Demolishing them is not easy and I don't care how many horses you might have to help or how many fires you light inside it. GRRM writes that they did it and used the stones as cairns for the dead, so who are we to doubt him, but it does very strongly suggest that the old watchtower was already a ruin and a landmark for a meeting rather than a dwelling place.

As to Ned's feelings for Jon, I'm reluctant to read too much into them, while your point is taken there is a mystery to be preserved.

I agree, all the usable towers in the Prince's pass would have been manned during the war (it took several months for Dorne to surrender); the Fowlers are Wardens of the Prince's pass. A ruined tower would explain why the tower was available. We have to wait for an explanation for the destruction of the tower and how Ned managed to reach it without his chest full of arrows.

You might be right about Jon. But after five books I am still waiting for clues of his non-Starkness.

 

[Ygrain]

42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The narrative is not complete. Why does Ned only have sad and bitter memories?

I am afraid I do not follow. The KG forced him into a fight which he didn't want, which cost him his dear friends and which was essentially pointless because instead of a reunion with his sister, he could only hold her hand as she died. Plus, he was tasked with fostering his nephew at the cost of staining his honour, staining the boy's honour and denying him the right to know his mother, and straining his marriage. Oh, and by harbouring Jon, he was betraying his friend and king. What is there not to be sad and bitter about?

42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

What did they find that warranted pulling down the tower?

I think that the main reason was to obtain stone for the burials. Then there was probably an emotional aspect - to obliterate the place that cost him so much.

42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Why is Howland (the guy that visited the magical Isles of Faces) in all parts of that tale? Just as a witness?

Quite possibly, because someone has to make the reveal. Doesn't preclude other roles, though, as a lot of plot items seems to be stuck, or headed, towards the Neck, like Ned's bones, Robb's will, and perhaps even BwB.

42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

If you search Ned's chapters, he almost never thinks about Jon.

It's not like he thinks about his other children more often, though.

42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

When Robert mentions him, he thinks of lost honour; when Cersei mentions him he has no reaction;

He does. He thinks about what he would do if it was his children's lives against some unknown child, and what Cat would do if it was her children against Jon. And he also thinks about Jon on the way back from the brothel.

Outside his PoV, he is clearly concerned about Jon's wellbeing when Cat wants him away from Winterfell.

42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

when Varys mentions him, Ned just thinks of shame and sorrow. I could never explain Ned's shame if he was just protecting her sister's son.

He declared the boy a bastard and never told him about his mother.

33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I've wondered about Howland's presence as well.  Is it possible he became Ned's squire after the Tourney? I'm reminded of Podrick saving Tyrion's life at the Battle of the Blackwater.

I think Ned's narrative has an overriding theme of the pledge to protect. Something that he discusses with Robert concerning Robin Arryn. He makes the odd statement that he would rather entrust a child to a pit viper than Tywin Lannister.  It is when he starts searching the mystery of Robert's bastards that the promises he made to Lyanna come back to haunt him.  Finally, there is the sense that he failed to protect the children or uphold his pledge.   

 

[Runaway Penguin]

...plus Jon also put his entire family into risk if found out etc... 

Benjen also probably knows, his hint to Jon that he would not be so eager to join NW if he knew what all would be sacrificing... Even after already talking about women. 

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I am afraid I do not follow. The KG forced him into a fight which he didn't want, which cost him his dear friends and which was essentially pointless because instead of a reunion with his sister, he could only hold her hand as she died. Plus, he was tasked with fostering his nephew at the cost of staining his honour, staining the boy's honour and denying him the right to know his mother, and straining his marriage. Oh, and by harbouring Jon, he was betraying his friend and king. What is there not to be sad and bitter about?

The child is safe at The Wall. Not a terrible life for a Stark bastard. Why not a hint of success and sweetness?

12 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

I think that the main reason was to obtain stone for the burials. Then there was probably an emotional aspect - to obliterate the place that cost him so much.

They were in a war zone in the middle of the Prince's pass surrounded by dornish troops that have not surrendered yet.. "for stones" seems like a very weak reason.

 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM likes to tell us of his fondness for layered meanings, so if it goes beyond this, why must there always be a Stark in Winterfell?

Perhaps because... winter is coming.

That said, assuming there is some deeper meaning in the phrase unknown to current generations of the family - it's a safe bet that "Stark" refers to something other than simply a "member of House Stark."  Perhaps some original meaning in the Old Tongue would clarify the significance of the phrase?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

The "pit viper" makes me wonder if he trusted some child to Oberyn :-)

Indeed.  The red viper and the red door.  What's the connection?  LOL

[Tucu]

20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Indeed.  The red viper and the red door.  What's the connection?  LOL

:-) At least that explains Ned's easy ride through Dorne.

[Frey family reunion]

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The only man we know Lyanna cared for is Robert--you've set that up well.

And we have Ned tell us that Robert loved Lyanna.

But we also have Ned think of blue roses and want to weep when he hears that Robert's love for Lyanna ruined Cersei's wedding night. 

Which sound like the love story ended up not. . . playing out. Somehow.

As for others Lyanna may or may not have loved--Martin gives hints at best.

For Rhaegar--the giving of the roses as a love gesture is heavily belied by the Bael Tale. And all other accounts of love are second hand.

For Arthur, we have Jon wondering if he's doing what his father did: Jon, breaking his sworn vows to a brotherhood for a wild northern girl.

But, who Lyanna loved originally may not have been who she ended up with --bastards born of lust, etc. So, not sure this test will end up being conclusive until we get more data. . . . 

I would modestly suggest that the text does support at least the bud of a relationship between Howland and Lyanna.  She comes to his rescue at Harrenhal, and if she was involved with the KOTLT, then she also helps fight for his honor.  If the gender roles were reversed a possible relationship between the two would be more immediately apparent.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

Ned surely relished telling Jon the tales of the demon of the trident, fiercest warrior in the realm, a giant among princes... Was he being a classic ahole? could he not drool that tale while Jon is bastarding outside?

[Tucu]

14 minutes ago, Laughing Storm Reborn said:

Ned surely relished telling Jon the tales of the demon of the trident, fiercest warrior in the realm, a giant among princes... Was he being a classic ahole? could he not drool that tale while Jon is bastarding outside?

So much bro'love between Ned and Robert.

"We were closer than brothers. He loves me"

How can they be closer than brothers without some "rusted iron hinges" going on?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I think that the main reason was to obtain stone for the burials. Then there was probably an emotional aspect - to obliterate the place that cost him so much.

Stones were hardly in short supply there, so pulling the tower down to obtain them suggests it was quick and easy, which in turn suggests that it was in tumbledown condition in the first place - otherwise why expend the effort.

[Ser Creighton]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I am afraid I do not follow. The KG forced him into a fight which he didn't want, which cost him his dear friends and which was essentially pointless because instead of a reunion with his sister, he could only hold her hand as she died. Plus, he was tasked with fostering his nephew at the cost of staining his honour, staining the boy's honour and denying him the right to know his mother, and straining his marriage. Oh, and by harbouring Jon, he was betraying his friend and king. What is there not to be sad and bitter about?

I think that the main reason was to obtain stone for the burials. Then there was probably an emotional aspect - to obliterate the place that cost him so much.

Quite possibly, because someone has to make the reveal. Doesn't preclude other roles, though, as a lot of plot items seems to be stuck, or headed, towards the Neck, like Ned's bones, Robb's will, and perhaps even BwB.

It's not like he thinks about his other children more often, though.

He does. He thinks about what he would do if it was his children's lives against some unknown child, and what Cat would do if it was her children against Jon. And he also thinks about Jon on the way back from the brothel.

Outside his PoV, he is clearly concerned about Jon's wellbeing when Cat wants him away from Winterfell.

He declared the boy a bastard and never told him about his mother.

 

He does think of Jon in the black cells.

The tower being pulled down does not have to be logical, it may have simply been for dramatic effect and draws more on Neds state of emotion at the time. It may also be a detail he wanted to use later in the series again for dramatic effect, it's an identifier to the location. Not every detail in the book is perfectly logical, it is a story it does have it share of color, drama, emotion, symbolism, or in this case symbolic act.

57 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The child is safe at The Wall. Not a terrible life for a Stark bastard. Why not a hint of success and sweetness?

They were in a war zone in the middle of the Prince's pass surrounded by dornish troops that have not surrendered yet.. "for stones" seems like a very weak reason.

 

Safe at the Wall? That's an interesting interpretation of the Wall? Others aside, you got Wildling raiders, rangings, rapists, thieves and murderers, and Benjen simply points out he felt Jon was to young that he should experience life first before such a commitment. Then you have Cat rejecting Jon from the family, Jon being a child, I am sure this did not sit well with Ned. What would Jon be missing out on? The non plan to put Jon on the throne? Or would he be missing out on things like the love of a women, a child, the comfort of a home? Benjen and Aemon have some similar themes with Jon in this aspect. But given the opening scene of the series is Ned cutting off the head of a member of the watch who seems to have gone mad with terror it does not seem Martin is hinting at safety and comfort from the prologue moving forward. Seems the author makes sure to point out it's dangerous from the get go both to the reader and to the characters. There is a Wildling King, before Ned even gets the letter from Robert he is contemplating marching North with his army to deal with Mance.   

Nobody knows the exact circumstances that were occurring in the Princes pass or how Ned got there or found the tower, we do know he was there, we do know roughly where the tower is and we do know he made it to Starfall. Not every detail is a conspiracy, not every phrase the secret to unlocking mystery after mystery. Rhaegar marched to the Trident in a Fortnight, not possible really on the map we are given but the maps are not super accurate. Sure Starfall and the Tower are shadowed in mystery but the journey to Starfall, well I assume it was by horse.

The army that Lewyn led did it come out of the Pass? Or did it simply appear out of thin air. Was it made up of divisions from each unit in each pass, is this also a great mystery that will Solve Jon's parentage.

Like I appreciate the looks at the Horned lord symbolism and mythology in and out of context of the series and such, but when it gets into logistics which Martin has self professed at being bad at I don't care, and it's highly unlikely that it matters that much. You know maybe Jon was born at the tower, maybe at Starfall, but either way he ends up at Starfall and he ends up with Ned at Winterfell after that. It really does no alter the story, it's just movement that is already expressed in the books.

[Tucu]

24 minutes ago, Ser Creighton said:

He does think of Jon in the black cells.

The tower being pulled down does not have to be logical, it may have simply been for dramatic effect and draws more on Neds state of emotion at the time. It may also be a detail he wanted to use later in the series again for dramatic effect, it's an identifier to the location. Not every detail in the book is perfectly logical, it is a story it does have it share of color, drama, emotion, symbolism, or in this case symbolic act.

Safe at the Wall? That's an interesting interpretation of the Wall? Others aside, you got Wildling raiders, rangings, rapists, thieves and murderers, and Benjen simply points out he felt Jon was to young that he should experience life first before such a commitment. Then you have Cat rejecting Jon from the family, Jon being a child, I am sure this did not sit well with Ned. What would Jon be missing out on? The non plan to put Jon on the throne? Or would he be missing out on things like the love of a women, a child, the comfort of a home? Benjen and Aemon have some similar themes with Jon in this aspect. But given the opening scene of the series is Ned cutting off the head of a member of the watch who seems to have gone mad with terror it does not seem Martin is hinting at safety and comfort from the prologue moving forward. Seems the author makes sure to point out it's dangerous from the get go both to the reader and to the characters. There is a Wildling King, before Ned even gets the letter from Robert he is contemplating marching North with his army to deal with Mance.   

Nobody knows the exact circumstances that were occurring in the Princes pass or how Ned got there or found the tower, we do know he was there, we do know roughly where the tower is and we do know he made it to Starfall. Not every detail is a conspiracy, not every phrase the secret to unlocking mystery after mystery. Rhaegar marched to the Trident in a Fortnight, not possible really on the map we are given but the maps are not super accurate. Sure Starfall and the Tower are shadowed in mystery but the journey to Starfall, well I assume it was by horse.

The army that Lewyn led did it come out of the Pass? Or did it simply appear out of thin air. Was it made up of divisions from each unit in each pass, is this also a great mystery that will Solve Jon's parentage.

Like I appreciate the looks at the Horned lord symbolism and mythology in and out of context of the series and such, but when it gets into logistics which Martin has self professed at being bad at I don't care, and it's highly unlikely that it matters that much. You know maybe Jon was born at the tower, maybe at Starfall, but either way he ends up at Starfall and he ends up with Ned at Winterfell after that. It really does no alter the story, it's just movement that is already expressed in the books.

Rhaegar march's to the Trident didn't last a fortnight. That time frame is never specified. We only know that Rossart was Hand for a fortnight.

So you don't see anything odd on Ned freely walking into enemy territory through some of the most protected roads into Dorne? 10000 is half the strength of Dorne; do you think they left the passes unprotected?

 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

So much bro'love between Ned and Robert.

"We were closer than brothers. He loves me"

How can they be closer than brothers without some "rusted iron hinges" going on?

Quite strange, almost as if... Naah it can't be... "Jon, you're father tanked a warhammer like a boss"... Hmm

Nedbert is so strong he couldn't help it, right?!! Baah who cares...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

28 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Rhaegar march's to the Trident didn't last a fortnight. That time frame is never specified. We only know that Rossart was Hand for a fortnight.

The World of Ice and Fire implies that Rossart was named Hand only after the Trident. That would mean that a fortnight passed between the Trident and the Sack. Which most likely means that Eddard's march (in great haste) to KL from the Trident lasted a bit shorter than a fortnight, and, in turn, that Rhaegar's march from KL to the Trident lasted about a fortnight, too (which in turn is comparable to the nineteen days it took Criston Cole to march an army from KL to Harrenhal, which is not that far from the location of the Battle of the Trident).

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The World of Ice and Fire implies that Rossart was named Hand only after the Trident. That would mean that a fortnight passed between the Trident and the Sack. Which most likely means that Eddard's march (in great haste) to KL from the Trident lasted a bit shorter than a fortnight, and, in turn, that Rhaegar's march from KL to the Trident lasted about a fortnight, too (which in turn is comparable to the nineteen days it took Criston Cole to march an army from KL to Harrenhal, which is not that far from the location of the Battle of the Trident).

If we add up the evidence we can only say that the Sack happened at least two weeks after the Trident.