Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread

[JNR]

51 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Rhaegar's lance dropping flowers

Spurting, you mean?

51 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

in Lyanna's

In Lyanna's what? Vase?

50 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love with eachother.Let's have the proof or better yet the foundation for that belief

Well, really, I think it stands to reason that if Rhaegar was spurting flowers into Lyanna's vase, they must surely have been in love. 

Also, there's the letter Lyanna sent home to Winterfell in the middle of the Rebellion.  You remember -- the letter in which (thoughtful young lady that she was) she explained to her family that she wasn't kidnapped or raped, but in fact, safe and sound and actually, multiorgasmic with the honorable and beloved Rhaegar, who had made her his second wife with the express consent of his first wife.  And went on to testify that she and Rhaegar were sitting in a tower, K I S S I N... ower.

How do you account for that, Wolfmaid?

[wolfmaid7]

13 minutes ago, JNR said:

Spurting, you mean?

Oh yes apologies.

13 minutes ago, JNR said:

In Lyanna's what? Vase?

I feel bad for Ned who got it all on his hands.Oh wait is the flowers suppose to be Jon? I forget.

 

15 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, really, I think it stands to reason that if Rhaegar was spurting flowers into Lyanna's vase, they must surely have been in love. 

Also, there's the letter Lyanna sent home to Winterfell in the middle of the Rebellion.  You remember -- the letter in which (thoughtful young lady that she was) she explained to her family that she wasn't kidnapped or raped, but in fact, safe and sound and actually, multiorgasmic with the honorable and beloved Rhaegar, who had made her his second wife with the express consent of his first wife.  And went on to testify that she and Rhaegar were sitting in a tower, K I S S I N... ower.

How do you account for that, Wolfmaid?

I....am absoluetly  shut the front door.

 

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't see any "correction" here Ygrain,i see your interpretation.See the difference? Let's throw out Rhaegar's lance dropping flowers in Lyanna's as an allusion to him having sex with her and giving her a baby,oh and AA stabbing Nissa Nissa to with his sword while we are at it.

So, you claim that the she-direwolf was impregnated by the stag that later killed her?  Unless GRRM made some very weird genetic magic here, the she-direwolf was impregnated by another direwolf and there was definitely nothing sexual about her ill-fated encounter with the stag.

My, Rhaegar's spear... the single reason why I brought Rhaegar into this is that, out of your merry list of candidates, he is the only one whose death was caused by a stag aka Robert.

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Are you serous with this statement? Not only is nonsense it is void of the context of the story.GRRM in addition to superimposing this figure onto Robert,made Robert human and multi-dimentional. A real man, with real problems.With a backstory filled with pain and loss and flaws that make him human.Else all he would be is a figure from myth that to its core is one dimentional.

Of course I am serious. Because if GRRM uses only some aspects of the myth, then it is in no way a given that the Horned god must have had sex with the Maiden. Can't have it both ways, you know. 

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

And no one is reaching,you just can't accept that there is more than one interpretation of GRRM's text and it may not end with Rhaegar as Jon's daddy.

See above. Either GRRM is following the myth to the letter, or he is not. If he is, then the "human side" is not supposed to be there. If he is not... then you cannot make any conclusions based on the myth because GRRM is not using it in its entirety. This Horned god never had the Maiden, Rhaegar did, and Robert himself acknowledges it. I don't have to fish the quote for you, do?

3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

But here's the challenge to you and compadres let's dispense with all this nonsense and get down to buisness and line this up side by side.

Starting with this love story you all are fond of telling: This goes for all the others as well.We have been kind of circling the drain with one.

The Rhaegar camp believes that they have this on lock so let's play the game of :

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/93822-rethinking-romance-love-stories-of-asoiaf/&do=findComment&comment=5035572

Though this is more like an advanced version and you will probably want the basics, I guess. Well, until RL allows or someone else picks up.

 

[AdesteFideles]

I thought we were beyond anything that didn't assert R+L=J.

I know the replies will be "but the show isn't the books", but really, anything that doesn't have Jon's parents as Lyanna and Rhaegar is flogging a dead horse at this stage. Even the R+L=J thread has moved away from crackpot theory's and onto the minutiae of the situation.

I do, however, appreciate that people have put a lot of work into alternative Jon parentage theory's.

The Heresy theory currently runs to hundreds of pages so I'm not about to read it all, is there a concise list of theory's that originated there that have since been proved true that I can read through?

[Tucu]

3 minutes ago, AdesteFideles said:

I thought we were beyond anything that didn't assert R+L=J.

I know the replies will be "but the show isn't the books", but really, anything that doesn't have Jon's parents as Lyanna and Rhaegar is flogging a dead horse at this stage. Even the R+L=J thread has moved away from crackpot theory's and onto the minutiae of the situation.

I do, however, appreciate that people have put a lot of work into alternative Jon parentage theory's.

The Heresy theory currently runs to hundreds of pages so I'm not about to read it all, is there a concise list of theory's that originated there that have since been proved true that I can read through?

The show isn't the books! :-) It has maybe 1% of the complexity of the books. So until GRRM confirms everything there are a lot of theories and inconsistencies to discuss.

[wolfmaid7]

52 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

So, you claim that the she-direwolf was impregnated by the stag that later killed her?  Unless GRRM made some very weird genetic magic here, the she-direwolf was impregnated by another direwolf and there was definitely nothing sexual about her ill-fated encounter with the stag.

My, Rhaegar's spear... the single reason why I brought Rhaegar into this is that, out of your merry list of candidates, he is the only one whose death was caused by a stag aka Robert.

Symbolism Ygrain,symbolism that merits removing the distraction and looking at the scene and the symbols.Foot long anthler (phallic symbol) in her.Read the scene and not the mechanics,that is the point.

Yessss Rhaegar got hit in the chest with Robert's war hammer and?I think we know that,its historical fact in story.

52 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Of course I am serious. Because if GRRM uses only some aspects of the myth, then it is in no way a given that the Horned god must have had sex with the Maiden. Can't have it both ways, you know. 

It depends on what aspect of the myth is present and what isn't.One could tell what's missing and what's there.So it's not a matter of having things both ways.Additionally,what's the point of having it,and having in be a continuing theme throughout the story and Jon's arch with him being an extention of it when its not neccessary. In other words,there's not point to having this myth,as much as it is enmeshed and stop short of them actually doing the deed when everything else is there.

 

52 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

See above. Either GRRM is following the myth to the letter, or he is not. If he is, then the "human side" is not supposed to be there. If he is not... then you cannot make any conclusions based on the myth because GRRM is not using it in its entirety. This Horned god never had the Maiden, Rhaegar did, and Robert himself acknowledges it. I don't have to fish the quote for you, do?

What are you going on about,the imprtant aspect of the myth is present that is the point.It absolutely reaching and fishing to bring in something like " In the original myth does it talk of the horned god being cuckhold" I mean come on Ygrain.You are not seriously asserting that the humaizing of Robert an him as a character in the story should be excluded? That's nonsense.He is following the myth and it must make sense in the context of the story he is also telling.

Robert saying " Rhaegar has Lyanna now" Is speaking in terms of they are both dead,else Robert on his deathbed wouldn't tell Ned "I will give Lyanna your love" Indicating he expected to be reunited with her.

As for Robert never having Lyanna:

“The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be.”

 

Not mine as she was meant to be.Mine AGAIN.

52 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Though this is more like an advanced version and you will probably want the basics, I guess. Well, until RL allows or someone else picks up.

I would like the evidence without the noise.There's a lot of talk in there that has nothing to do with Rhaegar and Lyanna.Other people that could be a parallel for any prospect.I am speaking of thing unique to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Anyone can pull parallels and say there you go.No one wants to see Jorah and his no good wife.

What you did is neither a parallel or a contrast because there's nothing to start from that's solid or its in dispute.And/or you gave information that is from a source that that doesn't and couldn't know what the hell they were talking about. I.e. Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips.

Put the basics,the tangible the things that can't be disputed or is hard to dispute,or that's a foundation directly related to Rhaegar and Lyanna on here. That's what alot of us want to see.

So can you please put Rhaegar and Lyanna on paper for me.Or is as you said in your linked post:

"I will not go over the reasoning pointing to the existence of romance between R+L as it is basically the staple of the R+L threads, and focus on filling in the whats, hows and whys."

We don't want any fillers,just give us the staple you are talking about.

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

22 minutes ago, AdesteFideles said:

I thought we were beyond anything that didn't assert R+L=J.

I know the replies will be "but the show isn't the books", but really, anything that doesn't have Jon's parents as Lyanna and Rhaegar is flogging a dead horse at this stage. Even the R+L=J thread has moved away from crackpot theory's and onto the minutiae of the situation.

I do, however, appreciate that people have put a lot of work into alternative Jon parentage theory's.

The Heresy theory currently runs to hundreds of pages so I'm not about to read it all, is there a concise list of theory's that originated there that have since been proved true that I can read through?

"We" weren't beyond anything,some people maybe and that's cool . @Tucu is correct the show isn't the books.Even GRRM says so.

 

Having said all that, I know what the next question will be, because hundreds of you have already asked it of me. Will the show 'spoil' the novels? 
Maybe. Yes and no. Look, I never thought the series could possibly catch up with the books, but it has. The show moved faster than I anticipated and I moved more slowly. There were other factors too, but that was the main one. Given where we are, inevitably, there will be certain plot twists and reveals in season six of GAME OF THRONES that have not yet happened in the books. For years my readers have been ahead of the viewers. This year, for some things, the reverse will be true. How you want to handle that... hey, that's up to you. Look, I read Andy Weir's novel THE MARTIAN before I saw the movie. But I saw the BBC production of JONATHAN STRANGE AND MR NORRELL before I finally got around to reading Susanna Clarke's novel. In both cases, I loved the book and I loved the adaptation. It does not need to be one or the other. You might prefer one over the other, but you can still enjoy the hell out of both.

Of course, there's an aspect to our situation that did not apply to either the Weir or Clarke cases. Those novels were finished before they were optioned, adapted, and filmed. The case of GAME OF THRONES and A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE is perhaps unique. I can't think of any other instance where the movie or TV show came out as the source material was still being written. So when you ask me, "will the show spoil the books," all I can do is say, "yes and no," and mumble once again about the butterfly effect. Those pretty little butterflies have grown into mighty dragons. Some of the 'spoilers' you may encounter in season six may not be spoilers at all... because the show and the books have diverged, and will continue to do so (GRRM).

[Runaway Penguin]

Not really sure if you are not reading too much into symbolism... Does the dead direwolf really have to have additional phallic symbolism, apart from the very clear foreshadowing of getting tangled with stags will kill the big direwolf (Eddard Stark) and that there are six pups, one for each kid of Stark blood?

I really am not convinced that GRRM aims for one massive interwoven plots - if anything, it seems like a set of plots/legends that may be often going on cross purposes or mistakenly connected by people (Azor Azhai / PtwP / Last Hero) on Planetos (not to say here as well ;)).

 

EDIT: Re. GRRM, while show will diverge, the very crucial bits for the story will remain. And Jon's parentage seems to have been one of them

[LynnS]

How do we account for the fact that only two people walked away from the ToJ and that Ned and Howland tore down the tower to build all those cairns?  If baby Jon was in the tower; shouldn't there be 3 people walking away or are we going to quibble over who could walk on two legs?  How long does it take to tear down a tower and get to Starfall carrying Lyanna's body?  Who is nursing the babe? 

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

How do we account for the fact that only two people walked away from the ToJ and that Ned and Howland tore down the tower to build all those cairns?  If baby Jon was in the tower; shouldn't there be 3 people walking away or are we going to quibble over who could walk on two legs?  How long does it take to tear down a tower and get to Starfall carrying Lyanna's body?  Who is nursing the babe? 

He is only counting the fighters? They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away

This that not exclude other people being in the tower and living to not tell the tale.

[LynnS]

Is that really what the SSM means because we already know from the book who survived the fight.  I think the question was pointedly not about who walked away from the fight but how many people in total were actually there.  As far as the HBO version; the fact that they only included 2 kingsguard is a big red flag saying that the book version of the ToJ will not be the same as the show.  The show version is based on the RLJ fan theory only.  Woe to D&D if they didn't give the fans the outcome they wanted.

[wolfmaid7]

51 minutes ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Not really sure if you are not reading too much into symbolism... Does the dead direwolf really have to have additional phallic symbolism, apart from the very clear foreshadowing of getting tangled with stags will kill the big direwolf (Eddard Stark) and that there are six pups, one for each kid of Stark blood?

I really am not convinced that GRRM aims for one massive interwoven plots - if anything, it seems like a set of plots/legends that may be often going on cross purposes or mistakenly connected by people (Azor Azhai / PtwP / Last Hero) on Planetos (not to say here as well ;)).

 

EDIT: Re. GRRM, while show will diverge, the very crucial bits for the story will remain. And Jon's parentage seems to have been one of them

It doesn't have to be, but it is there. Also, there are several scenes and stories in this series that have other meaning or another message being told.The crowning of Lyanna,the story of Bael the Bard and the Stark Maiden.The fact that the pups all have yellow eyes like most of the COTF except Ghost and Shaggy who are not only white and black respectively (Ying and Yang;light and dark,day and night) but they have red and green eyes respectively like those gifted of the gods of the COTF.

Many,many symbolism,if we go with the literal a Baratheon killing a Stag that was false because Joff was not a Stag,he was a Lion.

I disgree, on your second point that there isn't interwoven plots. IMO , there's one massive one and others that are converging with it.Those plots though they may start of at different points have common threads connecting to the major one.

What's the saying? Ah yes... Many roads leading to the same castle.

To the bolded,you don't know that.That is an opinion and a belief that i respect but based on GRRM's statement could be true could be false.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

He is only counting the fighters? They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away

This that not exclude other people being in the tower and living to not tell the tale.

Yeah ,of course .7 against 3 and two lived to ride away because there were only 10 of them at the tower to begin with.Couldn't that also be the case?There's already a predisposition to believe other people( Lyanna,a hand maiden or two and baby Jon) were at the tower instead of just the men that fought.

If no one else is there except the 3kgs + 7rebs then Ned's statement of who rode away  makes perfect sense.You see what i mean?

[JNR]

2 hours ago, AdesteFideles said:

I thought we were beyond anything that didn't assert R+L=J.

I know the replies will be "but the show isn't the books"

Well, of course that's true -- the show isn't the books.  GRRM has been warning the fans about this since the beginning, to the point where he even has a favorite term for it: the butterfly effect.  As he predicted, it's getting stronger and stronger every year.

Quote

There have been differences between the novels and the television show since the first episode of season one. And for just as long, I have been talking about the butterfly effect. Small changes lead to larger changes lead to huge changes.  ... Sometimes butterflies grow into dragons.  -- GRRM

http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html

However, it's a curious thing that the show is seen as having "proven" R+L=J because, of course, the show did nothing last year that hasn't been in the books for twenty years now. 

What we got last season was basically just the Promise Me Ned scene from AGOT.  And just like the canonical version, we're never told what Lyanna asked Ned to do... nor who that baby's parents are.  

But beyond all this, it's remarkable how little information really exists about Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship even in the books.  

After thousands and thousands of pages, we still cannot irrefutably demonstrate, using the canon, that the two of them ever so much as had a conversation.  We don't know for sure if they were ever alone in a room for even five minutes -- any time, anywhere.  We cannot cite any time that Rhaegar ever so much as set foot in the ToJ -- all we know is that "it was said" (by whom?  when?) that the ToJ was named the ToJ by Rhaegar.  Which is quite a different thing.

To gloss over these and even more problematic issues, the fandom has simply imagined answers to satisfy itself, and convinced itself that those answers must be true.  And the fandom has quite a shock coming.

[wolfmaid7]

10 minutes ago, JNR said:

After thousands and thousands of pages, we still cannot irrefutably demonstrate, using the canon, that the two of them ever so much as had a conversation.  We don't know for sure if they were ever alone in a room for even five minutes -- any time, anywhere.  We cannot cite any time that Rhaegar ever so much as set foot in the ToJ -- all we know is that "it was said" (by whom?  when?) that the ToJ was named the ToJ by Rhaegar.  Which is quite a different thing.

This here is the important thing that over thousands and thousands of pages and words from people who should know,think they know and know.No one can give any emotional evidence of this .The quality of their informationif any offered is based on the notion that:

Rhaegar ran away with her so obviously there was something,He was the beautiful Prince and every girl in the kingdom wanted to cure his woes because he was such an all round swell guy.

Every prospect must be able to show that there was something more than possible parallels.

[Tucu]

33 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah ,of course .7 against 3 and two lived to ride away because it was only 10 of them at the tower to begin with.There's already a predisposition to believe other people( Lyanna,a hand maiden or two and baby Jon) were at the tower instead of just the men that fought.

If no one else is there except the 3kgs + 7rebs then Ned's statement of who rode away  makes perfect sense.You see what i mean?

But the statement makes sense whatever number of non-combatants were there (0 or more).

[wolfmaid7]

15 minutes ago, Tucu said:

But the statement makes sense whatever number of non-combatants were there (0 or more).

True,true if your are along that lines my point was where Lyanna was isn't neccessarily at toj.If we begin with that premise.Which is why i said it could be seen as just Ned,his crew and the Kgs.Am i right?

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, wolfmaid7 said:

True,true if your are along that lines my point was where Lyanna was isn't neccessarily at toj.If we begin with that premise.Which is why i said it could be seen as just Ned,his crew and the Kgs.Am i right?

Yes, the link between the KG and Lyanna is only on his dreams. We know that he pulled the tower down, but not what he found there.

[Sly Wren]

On August 25, 2016 at 11:54 AM, LynnS said:

Yes, I agree this is an acceptable interpretation.  It's still unclear how Lyanna ended up with Rhaegar. It seems that Hoster Tully was not at the tourney and the question is why.  This is a huge event with the King attending; surely attendance was mandatory.  There is the question of Tywin Lannister's involvement in the alliance.  The note that Brandon recieves before his wedding taking him on some unknown errand.  The possibility that Rhaegar was in the area at the same time for some reason. An answer to those questions could lead to a different interpretation for the events at Harrenhal.   But that's another thread.     

Yes--the Knight of the Laughing Tree story has a lot of intriguing evidence--who got beaten, who was at the feats and who wasn't, who Ashara danced with (an odd set of details to include unless it's going to be important). We really need more data.

As for Rhaegar being in the area from where Lyanna disappeared--I keep coming back to Sansa and Arya's both clearly echoing Lyanna. And both ending up with people after they ran from Lannisters. Really think there's a whoppingly good chance Lyanna got into trouble and ran--ending up with Rhaegar and Co. 

The whole thing was an accident, not a plan.

But, as you say, that may be for another thread.

On August 25, 2016 at 1:54 PM, LynnS said:

His lack of emotion regarding Rhaegar must have something to do with what actually happened; rather than the official story.

Amen--and I can't see how the official tale will end up being "right." The World Book practically taunts us. The gap is enormous. As @Voice has argued long before me, seems likely that Rhaegar didn't "take" or "run off" with Lyanna at all.

On August 25, 2016 at 1:54 PM, LynnS said:

And this might have something to do with Brandon's errand and his subsequent rush to KL where Aerys takes him into custody.  He calls out Rhaegar but he isn't there.  Who told him he was there?  Who benefits from removing Brandon and Rickard? For telling the story that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar?  Was Asha at Harrenhal after being dismissed by Elia?  Was Lyanna with her?  Was Rhaegar also summoned to a meeting and what was he told.  Did he take Ashara and Lyanna back to Starfall for their safety?  I think these questions point to Tywin Lannister who's son can longer be his heir and Cersei who was passed over for Rhaegar's wife.  That must have infuriated him.

We get a strong echo of this in how Baelish meddles in warmongering for the War of the 5 Kings. Sending messages with believable lies (Lysa's letter to Cat). Giving wrong info to Cat about Tyrion. All of it results in messes and horrors.

Seems very likely that someone (Tywin) wanted a war to get Aerys off of the throne.  And the mess you describe was a way for Tywin to get it with plenty of plausible deniability.

On August 25, 2016 at 1:54 PM, LynnS said:

Again, perhaps not directly related to X+Y=J but a different backstory.  Lyanna leaving with Ashara and Rhaegar precipitating the course of action that Brandon took leading to his death and Lyanna's grief over losing her brother. 

Possible. But given that both Sansa and Arya explicitly echo Lyanna, I think their plot lines are more likely to tell us what happened to Lyanna. And both end up with people who didn't originally "take" them. Arya even ends up with knights devoted to the cause of a dead king--and Beric is tied to a BUNCH of Arthur Dayne imagery. Very similar to the 3 KG at the tower.

As you say, the scenario isn't specific to any particular father for Lyanna's child. But it would fit with the thematic elements we've been given.

[Sly Wren]

On August 25, 2016 at 11:41 AM, LynnS said:

I think it's possible that when Ned defeated Arthur in a type of trial by combat where the gods decide, along with a son who could wield it; he had a premonition in a fever dream of the eyes of death.  If anyone opened the door to death, it was Dany when MMD calls up the ancient powers; the great wolf and the man limned in flame.   She then opens the door in the HoU; burns it down and who knows what she released into the world.

I don't know if you've seen @Voice's argument on this, but he postulates that when the Stark in Winterfell (ancient office) killed the Sword of the Morning (ancient office), that's what let the Others return--blue as the eyes of death.

It's the only time in the books that something is compared to the "blue eyes of death." I checked--the eyes of Others and Wights are sometimes compared to blue flames or stars. But only Lyanna's rose petals in the moment of the fight are cleared "blue as the eyes of death"--something about that fight is tied to the Others.

And that would fit with all the ways Dany's ritual echoes the tower fight--Dany's ritual woke the dragon (herself) and allowed her to bring fire dragons back into the world.

While the fight between Ned and Arthur resulted in the return of the ice dragons--the Others.

On August 25, 2016 at 11:41 AM, LynnS said:

The ToJ, so named by Rhaegar, could have been the place where Dany was concieved.

YUP! That would fit with the echo we see when Baelish takes Sansa to the "Drearfort." The stolen Stark Maid is a witness to another marriage (and wedding night) entirely--NOT her own.

The echoes between Lysa's death and Ashara's would also fit there, too.