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Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread


wolfmaid7

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2 hours ago, Tucu said:

They were in a war zone in the middle of the Prince's pass surrounded by dornish troops that have not surrendered yet.. "for stones" seems like a very weak reason.

Right!  I think they were seen heading in the direction of Starfall for some time.  They were allowed to pass.  They were expected by Arthur Dayne and Kingsguard.   The parley before the melee has a ritualistic cant to it.  Ned will not yield; not even when Arthur is about to kill him.   It has the feel of a trial by combat since the war is over.

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Right!  I think they were seen heading in the direction of Starfall for some time.  They were allowed to pass.  They were expected by Arthur Dayne and Kingsguard.   The parley before the melee has a ritualistic cant to it.  Ned will not yield; not even when Arthur is about to kill him.   It has the feel of a trial by combat since the war is over.

And we should consider that Daeron I was killed with 3 KG in the same area while under a peace banner.

Daeron lost 40000 men and his life during the uprising; and Ned went through with only minor incidents?

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2 minutes ago, Tucu said:

And we should consider that Daeron I was killed with 3 KG in the same area while under a peace banner.

Daeron lost 40000 men and his life during the uprising; and Ned went through with only minor incidents?

With a party of seven; what threat does Ned pose especially if Arthur gave instructions to allow them to pass.

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12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

With a party of seven; what threat does Ned pose especially if Arthur gave instructions to allow them to pass.

Yes, just pointing out that the area is very well defended and not a place that you just walk in during a war. Something important is missing.

 

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2 hours ago, Tucu said:

The child is safe at The Wall. Not a terrible life for a Stark bastard. Why not a hint of success and sweetness?

They were in a war zone in the middle of the Prince's pass surrounded by dornish troops that have not surrendered yet.. "for stones" seems like a very weak reason.

 

War zone? What war zone? The war was over and we don't hear anything about the need to pacify Dornish troops, or is anything like that mentioned in the World Book? And is the location of the said troops? I don't recall any mention of them stationed outside Dorne, which is where ToJ is.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Stones were hardly in short supply there, so pulling the tower down to obtain them suggests it was quick and easy, which in turn suggests that it was in tumbledown condition in the first place - otherwise why expend the effort.

I suppose that the tower was indeed in a rather poor state, but I don't think that gathering stones on the mountainsides in the amount and size necessary for making cairns is such an easy job.

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35 minutes ago, Tucu said:

And we should consider that Daeron I was killed with 3 KG in the same area while under a peace banner.

Daeron lost 40000 men and his life during the uprising; and Ned went through with only minor incidents?

Ned leaves Robert and goes south to put an end to pockets of resistance to Robert's kingship. There's no record of his fighting a major Dornish uprising, and there's no record of further Dornish uprisings during Robert's kingship. All that implies that Ned could pass through the region with "minor incidents." Dorne, for whatever reason, did not need to be reconquered after the fall of the Targs.

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3 hours ago, Tucu said:

The child is safe at The Wall. Not a terrible life for a Stark bastard. Why not a hint of success and sweetness?

Huh? Success, yes, but pretty harsh life for a boy of fourteen, and Ned is not happy about it.

 

44 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

The World of Ice and Fire implies that Rossart was named Hand only after the Trident. That would mean that a fortnight passed between the Trident and the Sack. Which most likely means that Eddard's march (in great haste) to KL from the Trident lasted a bit shorter than a fortnight, and, in turn, that Rhaegar's march from KL to the Trident lasted about a fortnight, too (which in turn is comparable to the nineteen days it took Criston Cole to march an army from KL to Harrenhal, which is not that far from the location of the Battle of the Trident).

So there would be a gap between the burning of Chelstead (pre-Trident, with Darry present for Rhaella's rape) and the naming of Rossart?

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3 minutes ago, kimim said:

Ned leaves Robert and goes south to put an end to pockets of resistance to Robert's kingship. There's no record of his fighting major a Dornish uprising, and there's no record of further Dornish uprisings during Robert's kingship. All that implies that Ned could pass through the region with "minor incidents." Dorne, for whatever reason, did not need to be reconquered after the fall of the Targs.

 

6 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

War zone? What war zone? The war was over and we don't hear anything about the need to pacify Dornish troops, or is anything like that mentioned in the World Book? And is the location of the said troops? I don't recall any mention of them stationed outside Dorne, which is where ToJ is.

Peace with Dorne was only reached after months of negotiations by Jon Arryn. Oberyn was preparing an army to put Viserys in the throne.

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Just now, Tucu said:

 

Peace with Dorne was only reached after months of negotiations by Jon Arryn. Oberyn was preparing an army to put Viserys in the throne.

Of course. Preparing an army and giving in after "months of negotiations," are nothing, considering Dornish propensity to fight endlessly for independence. For whatever reason, they chose not to use their army, and they chose to negotiate...which, again, makes Ned's passing through the region without major incidents not very surprising.

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39 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Right!  I think they were seen heading in the direction of Starfall for some time.  They were allowed to pass.  They were expected by Arthur Dayne and Kingsguard.   The parley before the melee has a ritualistic cant to it.  Ned will not yield; not even when Arthur is about to kill him.   It has the feel of a trial by combat since the war is over.

I agree with the feel of this encounter.  It seemed both sides knew ahead of time that it would be a fight to the death.  This makes me doubt that the whole encounter was Eddard looking for Lyanna.  With Rhaegar's death, there is no particular reason that he would have arrived with the sole intention of fighting the Kingsguards to the death.  My fairly unpopular opinion is that Rhaegar named it "the tower of joy" based on his love of Summerhall and what that represented, the return of dragons (or perhaps The Dragon).  And based on everything we've seen in the books, I think dragon hatching/taming is predicated on human sacrifice.  Couple this with Eddard's association with the Targaryens and the killing of children, my guess is that Eddard knew ahead of time that the purpose of the tower was the sacrifice of children to "wake the dragon".  The Kingsguards were probably duty bound to see it through even after Rhaegar and Aerys' death but it is doubtful that they really wanted to fulfill this duty.  The arrival of Eddard and company gave them an honorable way out.

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20 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Peace with Dorne was only reached after months of negotiations by Jon Arryn. Oberyn was preparing an army to put Viserys in the throne.

And he would hardly keep that army outside Dorne.

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23 minutes ago, kimim said:

Of course. Preparing an army and giving in after "months of negotiations," are nothing, considering Dornish propensity to fight endlessly for independence. For whatever reason, they chose not to use their army, and they chose to negotiate...which, again, makes Ned's passing through the region without major incidents not very surprising.

So you think they left the principal pass into Dorne unmanned and let bands of Northmen roam free just weeks after the Sack of KL while peace was unclear?

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30 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

So there would be a gap between the burning of Chelstead (pre-Trident, with Darry present for Rhaella's rape) and the naming of Rossart?

Yes, it appears to be so.

Mind you, it could just be a bit of vague wording. But a fortnight between Trident and Sack would fit with the other travel times we know (for example, Eddard and court taking a fortnight to travel from Castle Darry, nearby the site of the Battle of the Trident, to KL in AGOT).

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Hey guys I realize this is a "wrap up" thread but i just had a read through here and didn't notice anyone putting forward the theory: R+L=J+D.

What I am leaving here is just one section from this lengthy post if you are interested: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/138563-mancerhaegar/

R+L=J+D

--> Lyanna has Rhaegar’s fraternal twins: a boy and a girl named Daenarys and Jon at the Tower of Joy. She dies.

--> Ned can claim Jon as his bastard (because he looks like a Stark) but he knows Dany would never be safe with him because of her silver hair and purple eyes.

--> Ned takes Dany to Starfall after the TOJ

--> He knows the safest place in Westeros for Dany is with Ashara Dayne because Ashara has deep purple eyes like Dany

--> He also knows Ashara is pregnant with Brandon's child and is nursing

--> the wet nurse Wylla in Ned's cover story reminds him of Ashara. (Ned had his heart broken by Ashara [Lost loves are another massive recurrence in GRRM writing])

--> Wylla probably was/is a real wet nurse at starfall who nursed Jon there while Ashara nursed Dany. This would make Edric Dayne’s comments about them being milk brothers true.

--> Coincidentally, Dayne can be spelled from Daenarys and the remaining letters are found in Ashara

--> Ashara becomes Dany's wet nurse but also her pseudo-mother for a time while she is a baby

- Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter ...But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

--> like her brother, Ashara fakes her own death. She has good cause and nobody is suspicious afterwards (dead lover[Brandon], dead brother[Arthur], Her and Brandon’s possibly dead stillborn baby? It also makes sense that she would want to go into hiding to protect Dany (also Brandon's niece) after she miscarried his baby and he died.

--> So it is decided that Ashara will take Dany into hiding. This is where it becomes impossible to say where and when things happened and is entirely speculation. It's possible she takes Dany first to the Martell's in Dorne but soon on to Lys under Dornish protection. This is because Lys is full of people with old Valyrian blood that look like they do (silver hair, purple eyes) so its easy for them to blend into the population. On Dragonstone Rhaella dies giving birth. Darry announces that he is sailing for Braavos and goes in the opposite direction to Dorne with Viscerys and Rhaella's sickly babe. This is around the time that future marriage alliance plans between Arianne and Viscerys are made. After everything is arranged Darry takes the Targaryen children to the house with the red door on the tropical island paradise/lemon tree land Lys. At some point not long after these events Dany is swapped in for Rhaella's last child who simply died. It's likely that as Viscerys grew older it became too risky to harbor the Targaryan children under Dornish protection without risking discovery so they were put out and forced to live a life on the run.

- “ Is it true he tried to raise Dorne  for Viserys?” “ No one speaks of it, but yes. Ravens flew and riders rode, with what secret messages I never knew. Jon Arryn sailed to Sunspear to return Prince Lewyn’s bones, sat down with Prince Doran, and ended all the talk of war. But Robert never went to Dorne thereafter, and Prince Oberyn seldom left it.”

--> There are several different plausible scenario's involving Dany and Ashara's movements during their flight from Westeros. It's unknown who was directly involved and at what point she is swapped for Rhaella's child but it all points to them ending up in Dorne or Lys at the house with the red door.

--> It's possible Viscerys knows that Dany is Rhaegar's but its just as likely he is fooled by his handlers. He was only 7 while this was happening.

- Home? The word made her feel sad. Ser Jorah had his Bear Island, but what was home to her? A few tales, names recited as solemnly as the words of a prayer, the fading memory of a red door...
--> Why was she solemnly reciting names? Is she being taught to remember a new identity?

--> When she is done nursing Dany, Ashara bounces out to Asshai and becomes Quathe, sends Dany dreams and visions, watches over her from afar, daughter she never had... (just like Mance is watching over Jon from afar by visiting Winterfell as the bard Abel and probably visiting Lyanna’s Tomb)

- Quaithe?” Dany called. “Where are you, Quaithe?” Then she saw. Her mask is made of starlight.Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice. “The dragons know. Do you?”

--> I realize that George did an interview in 1999 stating that Dany was 8-9 months younger than Jon but let me remind you NON BOOK MATERIAL IS SIMPLY NOT CANON. All the information on Dany we are given in the books is from Dany's perspective or one of the other POV characters close to her. As far as she knows, she is 13 in AGOT. George could be giving us information based on the POV information we have in the books.... he is very clever like that.

Here is the interview:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1040

--> The feeling I get from this interview is that the questioner is prying in a place George does not want to go especially when asking about the timeline of Jon’s birth in the first line... right away his guard is up. Again, you can take his word literally and automatically R+L=J+D is impossible. However, it is equally as likely that two such pivotal events in the story such as Jon and Dany’s births would be very well thought out in relation to each other. If R+L=J+D is true, it would make it one of his most closely guarded secrets; A question he would surely have been ready to address with a deflection. He seems to do this here by going off about how difficult it is to keep the dates straight but then gives us a very specific estimate of 8-9 months. Believe what you will people.

(I am not going to recite the large pile of evidence for R+L=J. I am only putting forward the clues from Ned's chapters in AGOT that hint at R+L=J+D.)

--> Immediately after his fight with Robert and the small council over the murder of Daenarys, Ned is getting ready to leave Kings Landing but he is distracted by Littlefinger and the mystery of Jon Arryn's murder.

- "He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did. Always? Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion . . ."

^here Ned seems to think that there's still a chance Robert might cool off^

---> his thoughts while inspecting Roberts bastard daughter at the brothel:

- "He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them." (Note "Promises", plural)

---> Then Ned gets his leg broke by Jaime's posse and passes out. Now why would he all of a sudden dream "an old dream" about the Tower of Joy? What triggered this old Dream? You could say it was Roberts daughter reminding him of Jon but given that the big emotional argument about killing Daenarys and all the Rhaegar hating that just happened it's reasonable to say that it could be the main cause.

- “Serve the boar at my funeral feast,” Robert rasped. “Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” “I promise.”Promise me, Ned, Lyanna’s voice echoed. “The girl,” the king said. “Daenerys. Let her live. If you can, if it . . . not too late . . . talk to them . . . Varys, Littlefinger . . . don’t let them kill her. And help my son, Ned. Make him be . . . better than me.” He winced. “Gods have mercy.” “They will, my friend,” Ned said. “They will.”

----> Obviously Lyanna is still on his mind for some reason. Then Dany is mentioned literally right after the promise is. Sounds like a wink from the author to me.

- "Robert had a change of heart concerning Daenarys Targaryen. Whatever arrangements you made, I want unmade. At once.” “Alas,” said Varys. “At once may be too late. I fear those birds have flown."

^this is right before he confronts Cersei in the throne room.^

- “When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares.”

----> The next time we see Ned he's in the black cells dreaming of broken promises. But why broken promises now? Jon is safely at the wall and he raised Jon in his own household as one of his children. Broken Promise to tell Jon about his true parentage? Broken Promises to Cat? Ned doesn't even know what his fate is yet. But something is hurting him enough to give him nightmares of blood and broken promises and its not the fact he didn't eat the boar.

---> It has to be the thought of Daenarys that brings back all these nearly forgotten feelings about broken promises and blood and the tower of Joy. Ned is a prisoner and just found out the assassination can't be stopped.

Jon and Dany being twins IMHO ties together the whole story a lot better. It would make them the children of the union between Fire and Ice (R+L), separated at birth, sent to the opposite sides of the world, one battling fire and the other ice. It makes for a much more poetic sequence and fits the narrative better than if Dany was the daughter of the mad king. We are told over and over that Targaryen's wed brother and sister to keep the bloodlines pure. If Dany and Jon do fall in love, wouldn't it be far more fitting that they are actually brother and sister not aunt and nephew...?

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree with the feel of this encounter.  It seemed both sides knew ahead of time that it would be a fight to the death.  This makes me doubt that the whole encounter was Eddard looking for Lyanna.  With Rhaegar's death, there is no particular reason that he would have arrived with the sole intention of fighting the Kingsguards to the death.  My fairly unpopular opinion is that Rhaegar named it "the tower of joy" based on his love of Summerhall and what that represented, the return of dragons (or perhaps The Dragon).  And based on everything we've seen in the books, I think dragon hatching/taming is predicated on human sacrifice.  Couple this with Eddard's association with the Targaryens and the killing of children, my guess is that Eddard knew ahead of time that the purpose of the tower was the sacrifice of children to "wake the dragon".  The Kingsguards were probably duty bound to see it through even after Rhaegar and Aerys' death but it is doubtful that they really wanted to fulfill this duty.  The arrival of Eddard and company gave them an honorable way out.

The Kingsguard take their vows to keep the king's secrets and protect his life.  They are not there to judge his actions; so we are told by Jaime.  Gerold Hightower himself tells Jaime this after he witnesses Brandon and Rickard's deaths.   I am just not sure who's vows they are following; whether that's Rhaegar or Aerys.    But if this is true; it puts Aerys higher on the list with his insane fantasies about wildfire and becoming the dragon himself. 

We can't forget that Ethan Glover is with Ned and knows something about the kingsguard's purpose that we don't; the only witness to the events leading Brandon and Rickard to KL. All we know is that Hoster called Brandon a gallant fool; translation: someone who has been duped; and that Ethan is released from the Black Cells (Varys) for some reason and makes his way to join Ned. 

The question for me is where Lyanna was 'taken'.  It seems logical to me that she would be traveling with her father's party to Riverrun for the wedding and subsequently ended up as Aerys' prisoner.    Not forgetting that Aerys wanted the KotLT unmasked and punished. 

We also have these strange words from Jaime related to Catelyn:

After Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, "You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him." That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."

"Aerys ..." Catelyn could taste bile at the back of her throat. The story was so hideous she suspected it had to be true. "Aerys was mad the whole realm knew it, but if you would have me believe you slew him to avenge Brandon Stark ..."

"I made no such claim. The Starks were nothing to me. I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act.

"I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?

Catelyn took a step backward. "Brienne."

"No, that wasn't it." Jamie Lannister upended the flagon. A trickle ran down onto his face, bright as blood. "Snow that was the one. Such a white name ... like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths."

So Gerold Hightower was loyal to the king to the end, at the ToJ.  Who was the Stark who loved Jaime for a kindness he never did?

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47 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So Gerold Hightower was loyal to the king to the end, at the ToJ.  

That comes over very clearly in that celebrated conversation:

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit on the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

Those aren't the words of someone who has decided to give his loyalty to Rhaegar instead of Aerys.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I suppose that the tower was indeed in a rather poor state, but I don't think that gathering stones on the mountainsides in the amount and size necessary for making cairns is such an easy job.

Clearly not, but the fact that it was easier to pull down the tower [on top of them?] rather than simply gather stones from the rocky hillsides doesn't argue for it being habitable.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

And he would hardly keep that army outside Dorne.

On the contrary, if it is to be a credible threat that's exactly where it should be kept and only withdrawn when suitable guarantees are obtained to render the threat unnecessary.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The Kingsguard take their vows to keep the king's secrets and protect his life.  They are not there to judge his actions; so we are told by Jaime.  Gerold Hightower himself tells Jaime this after he witnesses Brandon and Rickard's deaths.   I am just not sure who's vows they are following; whether that's Rhaegar or Aerys.    But if this is true; it puts Aerys higher on the list with his insane fantasies about wildfire and becoming the dragon himself. 

 

Eddard seems to equate Aerys with the killing of children, so Aerys would be higher on my list as well.  If the tower of joy was a place for dragon hatching and human sacrifice, I still can't help but to implicate Rhaegar as well, however.  It seemed like Aerys knew where and how to summon Rhaegar when he needed him to replace Connington as his general.  So my guess is, Aerys knew that Rhaegar was preparing the tower of joy for a dragon hatching ritual. 

If you go back to Dany's vision at the HOTU (assuming the vision can be trusted), Elia asking Rhaegar if he is going to make a song about their child. I find this seemingly innocuous question fairly ominous.   In ASOIAF, it is seems that songs are written for people as a eulogy.  Which makes me wonder, did Elia assume that Rhaegar was going to outlive their son?  If so, then my assumption is that Rhaegar was planning for Aegon to be on of the sacrifices, perhaps in his mind he would be reborn as a dragon.

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