The Prince Of Nothing series is optioned for TV!

[red snow]

11 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I think he meant that the non white characters would all be cast as white.

I doubt they'd want to add any more controversy to the project by doing that.

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

 

This is the problem as I see it, and why I made the comment I did. Sure you can do PoN without all that darkness, and you can do it without the navel gazing philosophy...at that point you're just using the skeleton of the story and the setting though, you aren't making PoN into a show. And that's fine, and I'd probably watch it and enjoy it more than a faithful adaptation, but you're kidding yourself if you think all the things that are not palatable to a mainstream audience aren't part of the core experience of these books.

I'm sure they'd keep enough of the unpalatable stuff in to keep it recognisable. If the goal is to have a GOT on their hands then they'll probably emulate it as much as possible - and despite the criticism GOT continues to have some nasty scenes in pretty much every season. 

I'd like to see reader's reactions if the PON tv show is sanitized and successful and they then read the books. I imagine Scott would get as much satisfaction from that as the pay checques. Ever are viewers deceived.

[Derfel Cadarn]

More importantly, will the black semen be CGI, or physical effect?

Maybe they could copy Spartacus Blood & Sand and have gallons of it cover the screen upon ejaculation?

[Happy Ent]

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

[…] if you think all the things that are not palatable to a mainstream audience aren't part of the core experience of these books.

Hm… pretty much nothing of what was (to me) the core experience of ASOIAF made it into the TV show.

Pilot episode has Kellhus encounter Leweth, with Sherlock-style inferences shown in a visually smart way (extreme zoom on sweat trickling down, heartbeats, etc.) Intercut this with Ishual flashbacks where Kellhus learns what this means (you don’t even need internal monologue, you can have the Pragma explain this to young Kellhus in thereby the audience). These Kellhus-POVs could be the defining gimmick of the show, at least for the first many episodes. It would be insanely entertaining to watch and garner splendid reviews. (It’s also cheap.) Interviews with Kahnemann-style psychologists in the popular press. (“New fantasy series weds GOT and Sherlock into a psychological twist.” “TV show  questions the lies we tell ourselves” Etc.) I’d include a gazillion Ishual-flashbacks anyway; montages of warrior-monks training is cinematic gold.

The anti-islamic crusader-theme you can play straight from the books, there is a huge audience for this. (“Fears of angered muslim community while Second Apocalypse show receives rave reviews.”)  Ramp up the swords-and-sandals imagery from House Ikurei to attract viewers of historical drama. Ikurei-related material will be the most expensive (Conphas at Kiyuth, and the Nansur army entering Momemn. I don’t know much about CGI costs, but large block of infantry are cheaper than animated dragons, are they not?)

Milk the diversity angle of the cast for all it’s got (“Finally a fantasy series where almost nobody is white!”). And retain the seriousness of Acka’s angle to make reviewers happy (“New series is mix of Mad Men and GOT”).

On-screen buggering of the Scylvendi captives is the biggest issue, form a censorial point of view. You need only imply it, as in the books. But if you play it right, this is good publicity. 

Esmi’s rape by the glamoured Auruang is a completely standard, steamy soft-porn sex scene which is routine for TV. Entirely unremarkable.

[red snow]

Probably quite close to how the TV folk would approach an adaptation, gain an audience and get free publicity.

I think they'd also want to throw in some "matrix" scenes in Kellhus' fighting and make a point of saying they have the action choreographers on board. I think the "into the badlands" fight choreographers could help out with Kellhus.

3 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

More importantly, will the black semen be CGI, or physical effect?

Maybe they could copy Spartacus Blood & Sand and have gallons of it cover the screen upon ejaculation?

OTT is often one way of trying to dodge accusations of too much sex and violence.

[DaveSumm]

I think I mentioned this in a regular Bakker thread long ago; I think a House of Cards style narration to camera would be the most effective way of conveying Kellhus's thought process. I could see him describing precisely what it was about Leweth's facial movement's that he was reading, with an accompanying close up of each part. Considering even intelligent humans are supposed to be completely enraptured with him, it'd be impossible to convey it any other way without the audience also believing this. Maybe break up Kellhus's journey from the Dunyain to meeting Cnaiur into prologues before each episode, which focused on the 5 parts of tDtCB (Akka, Emperor, Esmenet, etc).

Also, I can't help but remember the countless offers GRRM got before the D&D/HBO one; pulling out one character and claiming them the 'main' character (Jon, Dany, Eddard etc). I can't see Bakker having the same clout to turn these down, so if it happens at all if be shocked if it wasn't much farther removed from the books than GOT is to aSoIaF.

[karaddin]

And none of what is being described here remotely captures the tone of the series, unless you're reading it very differently to me. We're talking about a world where the villains are trying to kill basically everyone and shut out the gods and that's actually a pretty sympathetic viewpoint because the world is so fucking awful for everyone in it and especially after they die. The monsters run into battle sporting giant boners and rape wherever they can find, whether there's a hole there to start or not. You can't clothe this in normal fantasy and remain faithful to the horror of the setting itself.

You can absolutely do a series where you cut a lot of that out, you base it in that setting and you use Akka, you use Kellhus etc but it's played to more standard tropes. At least if you do this you might spare us the Esme plotline in the second series.

And if you think using 'fear of a Muslim backlash' to court controversy is a good approach we probably aren't going to find much common ground in our opinions.

[Castel]

11 hours ago, karaddin said:

And if you think using 'fear of a Muslim backlash' to court controversy is a good approach we probably aren't going to find much common ground in our opinions.

Right. Happy Ent is saying things that sound vaguely plausible until you look at them. 

 

First off: it's not necessarily true that Hollywood is at all in-tune with whatever market Breitbart  chases. Probably the opposite, when it comes to who's reviewing works or providing buzz and so on. The idea that they're gonna be drawn by claiming "Muslim backlash" is amusing. "All press is good press" is not necessarily true.

The Esmi rape thing is where I was convinced it had to be some form of satire. I mean...Bakker didn't do that.

But I disagree tbh. I don't think the Sranc or the Inchoroi have to rape people for the series to work. It might make the series less Bakkerian but I frankly don't care that much. There's plenty of horror in parts of the series that you can write  without getting as gratuitous as Bakker.

The lack of female roles is a bigger issue, but one that doesn't necessarily tread on the point.

 

13 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I think I mentioned this in a regular Bakker thread long ago; I think a House of Cards style narration to camera would be the most effective way of conveying Kellhus's thought process.

House of Cards works cause there's some tongue-in-cheek element to it all.

That's...not Kellhus. 

 

[karaddin]

Just to be clear, because I don't think I'm coming across well on this. I'm not saying that wouldn't work, I'd watch that and I'd probably enjoy it. I just think that if you change enough to make it work and palatable to a mainstream audience, you are changing things at a sufficiently fundamental and foundational level that it is a different story.  Since people have already compared to GoT, the show already treads this line very finely and IMO has crossed that line the last couple of seasons.  The changes that have been suggested in here make for a more substantive change to the tone of the show than GoT had for most of its run so far, and also cross this line.  That said, I'd be willing to expand on why I think this is true of GoT and it relates to the point of the story, and it may be possible to change PoN more than GoT but somehow manage to retain the point of the story despite the tonal shift, in which case it would end up more faithful.

[red snow]

4 hours ago, Castel said:

Right. Happy Ent is saying things that sound vaguely plausible until you look at them. 

 

 I was convinced it had to be some form of satire.

 

HE's tongue was firmly in cheek throughout that but I suspect he's closer to the curve of how TV is approached than we'd like. We've all heard the rumours of HBO people asking for a sex scene thrown in and the like.

Pretty sure no-one would openly admit to chasing the Breitbart/Trump demographic though as they also need to appeal to the fairly liberal crowd who like complicated TV as well. Also, there's the reviewers which tend to be the opposite of the Breitbart gang and if enough of the reviews are negative then everyone is more cautious.

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

Just to be clear, because I don't think I'm coming across well on this. I'm not saying that wouldn't work, I'd watch that and I'd probably enjoy it. I just think that if you change enough to make it work and palatable to a mainstream audience, you are changing things at a sufficiently fundamental and foundational level that it is a different story.  Since people have already compared to GoT, the show already treads this line very finely and IMO has crossed that line the last couple of seasons.  The changes that have been suggested in here make for a more substantive change to the tone of the show than GoT had for most of its run so far, and also cross this line.  That said, I'd be willing to expand on why I think this is true of GoT and it relates to the point of the story, and it may be possible to change PoN more than GoT but somehow manage to retain the point of the story despite the tonal shift, in which case it would end up more faithful.

I understand what you mean. I guess it's a case of whether they want to make a good (and more importantly successful) TV show or make a good representation of the book. I'm usually more for different takes on the books as it gives me something new than it being too similar. It looks like TV shows go that route moreso than films eg GOT, Walking Dead, Preacher (GOT being most faithful and Preacher being least). There's always the book for that genuine experience.

When PoN comes to mind the closest TV comparison I can think of is "oz" in terms of being incredibly dark and everyone being pretty awful human beings and/or victims. "Oz" is still one of my favourite shows for that reason alone (although the last 1-2 seasons were ropey). It wasn't massively successful though and I wonder if they'd toned it down to Sopranos level they'd have had more success? But then it may have lost that aspect that made it so distinct. It's a tough choice - especially with a production that could cost a lot (prison dramas must be relatively cheap in terms of location shooting)

 

[lokisnow]

Fundamentally, the TV show will be about how deep and postmodern it is to have a gay Conan main character and a probably the antichrist main character getting crucified to ascend to power.

"we are deconstructing the worst sexist and homophobic tropes of high fantasy by having our main character be a gay  version of Conan, that's why Bakker rearranged the letters of Conan and added some apostrophes on some vowels to come up with Cnai"ur name, so that people would get how deep it is to have a gay Conan."

[lokisnow]

Kidding aside, Bakker has one of the thinnest skins around and is complete unable to handle the existence of disagreement, I'd be seriously worried about the potential for him to be a liability and would want some severe restrictions on his internet behavior written into the contract to option.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, lokisnow said:

Fundamentally, the TV show will be about how deep and postmodern it is to have a gay Conan main character and a probably the antichrist main character getting crucified to ascend to power.

"we are deconstructing the worst sexist and homophobic tropes of high fantasy by having our main character be a gay  version of Conan, that's why Bakker rearranged the letters of Conan and added some apostrophes on some vowels to come up with Cnai"ur name, so that people would get how deep it is to have a gay Conan."

This would be bad news for Netflix and Richard Morgan if they wanted to follow up the success of "altered carbon" with "the steel remains". I think "Steel remains" would be an easier adaptation. Plus Ringil is at least comfortable with who is even if the rest of his world isn't. But I know you're kidding about how you think PoN would be translated.

1 hour ago, lokisnow said:

Kidding aside, Bakker has one of the thinnest skins around and is complete unable to handle the existence of disagreement, I'd be seriously worried about the potential for him to be a liability and would want some severe restrictions on his internet behavior written into the contract to option.

That's a  good point. There'll be all those review sites where he can argue the show's case as an anonymous poster. Although chances are he may be pissed at how they adapt the work. If he's hands off he can at least not take it personally.

[DaveSumm]

6 hours ago, Castel said:

House of Cards works cause there's some tongue-in-cheek element to it all.

That's...not Kellhus. 

It doesn't have to be tongue in cheek though, and isn't always on HoC. In many scenes, it's the only way we could know Frank's actually a complete bastard because he has the genteel southern facade up so much of the time. Kellhus is, literally, 100% facade. He's mastered every possible means of communicating that there simply isn't room left for anything other than facade. It's questionable if acting 'genuinely' even means anything to him, or if it's at all possible. And thus without any access to his thoughts, the audience will probably think he's as great as everyone else does. I think we can probably all agree that if after the first season everyone says "wow this Kellhus guy's just swell", something's gone pretty seriously wrong.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

It doesn't have to be tongue in cheek though, and isn't always on HoC. In many scenes, it's the only way we could know Frank's actually a complete bastard because he has the genteel southern facade up so much of the time. Kellhus is, literally, 100% facade. He's mastered every possible means of communicating that there simply isn't room left for anything other than facade. It's questionable if acting 'genuinely' even means anything to him, or if it's at all possible. And thus without any access to his thoughts, the audience will probably think he's as great as everyone else does. I think we can probably all agree that if after the first season everyone says "wow this Kellhus guy's just swell", something's gone pretty seriously wrong.

They could always go for voice-over as well - it seems to work for "dexter" and "Mr Robot". I think you might be onto something with Kellhus being able to almost break the 4th wall though as it could be used to show he's trying to escape from/understand what comes before.

Again, it could be amusing for the viewer to think of Kellhus as a super-awesome guy as that's what he is based on appearance. We only get hints every now and then. I mean - would we trust Cnaiur's word over Kellhus? Shouldn't the viewer essentially be deceived as well?

[Castel]

8 hours ago, red snow said:

HE's tongue was firmly in cheek throughout that but I suspect he's closer to the curve of how TV is approached than we'd like. We've all heard the rumours of HBO people asking for a sex scene thrown in and the like.

Oh, I don't even believe that it's just a rumor at this point. I'm not naive about HBO and how they use "realism" and adult storytelling to justify throwing nude bodies around for "the pervs" (actual quote from one of their directors)

 

But that's a far cry from turning a rape and interrogation into a softcore sex scene.

 

Quote

 

Pretty sure no-one would openly admit to chasing the Breitbart/Trump demographic though as they also need to appeal to the fairly liberal crowd who like complicated TV as well. Also, there's the reviewers which tend to be the opposite of the Breitbart gang and if enough of the reviews are negative then everyone is more cautious.

 

 

 

Yes

[Weeping Sore]

As long as they cast Peter Dinklage as Kellhus, I'm good.

[Corvinus85]

I don't think that this show, whether it's HBO or Starz or Netflix, could match GOT's popularity. It's not how much money you throw at it to make the CGI, the costumes and the sets look kewl, it doesn't matter how much sex or gore it has. For one, it's too fucked up, and two it does not have any young (and hot) characters for the masses to adore. 

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Honestly, I think the height of the series's popularity was when it seemed like a fairly standard epic fantasy, but with some extra philosophical and psychological depth. And a TV show would probably try to replicate that.

 

I think that outside this board, most of the Second Apocalypse's popularity was due to the stuff like Cnaiur saying badass stuff, Akka blowing other sorcerer's up, Kellhus being a super saiyan ninja, and plenty of epic battle scenes.

Hell, I've talked to someone who read it, and liked, but didn't love it. He never even realized that Cnaiur was gay. Then again, a lot of people never realized that Loras and Renly were gay until it was made explicit on the show.

[sologdin]

On 8/28/2016 at 5:30 AM, Derfel Cadarn said:

More importantly, will the black semen be CGI, or physical effect?

as with x-files black oil.

On 8/28/2016 at 9:21 AM, DaveSumm said:

I think a House of Cards style narration to camera would be the most effective way of conveying Kellhus's thought process. I could see him describing precisely what it was about Leweth's facial movement's that he was reading, with an accompanying close up of each part.

as with terminator heads-up display.

[SerPaladin]

I think they could use the philosophy as the driving force in the narrative, alongside the crusade. True Detective dropped its share of inscrutable musings from the McConaughey, and people at that up. Not only did they eat it up, it was a cottage industry trying to figure it out. Kellhus will be on T-Shirts. With sayings that confuse the normals and make them uncomfortable. C'naiur will be a meme.

Narrative is across multiple locations and threads. Big set-piece battle scenes. Just enough magic and super-saiyan over the top stuff to get us nerds. Could be huge, but no one should expect GOT. GOT is a cultural phenomenon. But it would be bigger than, say, Deadwood or Boardwalk Empire.