Between Sansa and Daenerys, who would make the better ruling Queen?

[Marcus corvinus]

8 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Daenerys would make the best ruler out of all the characters in the story.  She has more self-discipline than Robb and Jon.  That imbecile Sansa Stark has no business ruling anything. 

She's the most likely to be mad out of all the characters. er visions at the house of undying and quathee prophecies are gradually making her paranoid about everything just like aerys, just like cersei. And by the way, her ancestors have a reputation for insanity, combine that with her paranoia and her dysfunctional childhood and teen life and you have a recipe for female Hitler/Idi amin

[Tucu]

6 hours ago, khal drogon said:

The problem is you list what all the things she has done and judging by how much things went good and went bad. I see it how she has improved from Astapor to Meereen. I understand she is a ruler who don't know nothing and her learning from her mistakes and try to become better. You can call anyone a failure by listing all the things they have done and saying they have failed most of the time. But the right way to judge a person is how fast they could learn and progress. I could see that progression in her from Astapor to Meereen. Especially when the person you are seeing is a 14 year old who had no prior experience in what she is doing she is impressive. 

You have to look at the balance of the results of her actions. The current balance is freedom, poverty, famine, disease, war and death.

You get the balance from the people that were once her friends:

- From the Astapori envoy: We are all dead, then. You gave us death, not freedom

- From Xaro: "I no longer lust for dragons. I saw their work at Astapor", about Meereen "A poor city that once was rich. A hungry city that once was fat. A bloody city that once was peaceful." and finally "When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world. I should have slain you in Qarth." 

As for she learning how to rule. This is her epiphany in the last chapter:

Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

 

Are those the thoughts of a wise ruler? Should we just think that Slaver's bay was a dry-run with no consequences and things will be better in Westeros?

[Kaibaman]

2 hours ago, Oracle.Clear.Rivers said:

I'm not dismissing Dany's experience. You're misunderstanding me. I'm aware that she's a character who had a very hard life and unlike Sansa, she didn't get to have a happy childhood. She's someone who went from a rock hard bottom kind of life as an on-the-run exiled orphan living in fear of an abusive brother to now the top of the food chain Queen Conqueror who has yet to experience absolute defeat. For someone who has been in a submissive position during a large portion of her life, that authoritative power could blind her from any consequences of her actions (which did happened in canon). She might not realize that she is now someone who is feared by others. She might not remember how it was like living in constant fear. She went from zero to hero so fast, she might forget who she once was (hunted, abused, deprived - a victim) and how integral it is to her current identity (I think this is one of the things Quaithe meant with her "Remember who you are" advise.) 

I fear for Dany because what will happen when consequences of her actions as someone with power finally caught up to her. What if she was dragged down from the top? What would she do when she lost her power even for a moment? She has yet to face the full brunt of the problems she caused and resolve it on her own. So, for me, she isn't "tested" yet and, in turn, best queen material.

 

And in your opinion Sansa has been "tested"? Don't get me wrong Sansa has gone through quite a bit of character development from a spoiled snob of a teen to a more sympathetic and politically acute person though her many trials. However what differentiates her from Dany is that she is still a pawn or at least seen as one. She has yet to earn anyone's respect and people like Littlefinger are helping her only because she is a political asset. The only reason anyone would back Sansa at this point is because she is a cachet to the North, Vale and Riverlands and not because they see her as someone worthy to follow. Because frankly she has yet to be "tested".

Now I agree Dany isn't the paragon of what a good ruler should be. But at least in her case she is no longer a helpless pawn in other people's games. Strangely enough unlike many deposed/exiled scions of powerful royal dynasties, she didn't end up becoming a puppet for other people's power plays. She could have been this and in fact was this sort of thing when she was Drogo's queen. But thanks to a combination of luck and skill, she has managed to pull herself up from her bootstraps and has gained tremendous power in her own right. In this regard I think a lot of people would argue that unlike Sansa she has been tested, many times in fact. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

You have to look at the balance of the results of her actions. The current balance is freedom, poverty, famine, disease, war and death.

You get the balance from the people that were once her friends:

- From the Astapori envoy: We are all dead, then. You gave us death, not freedom

- From Xaro: "I no longer lust for dragons. I saw their work at Astapor", about Meereen "A poor city that once was rich. A hungry city that once was fat. A bloody city that once was peaceful." and finally "When your dragons were small they were a wonder. Grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world. I should have slain you in Qarth." 

As for she learning how to rule. This is her epiphany in the last chapter:

Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.

 

Are those the thoughts of a wise ruler? Should we just think that Slaver's bay was a dry-run with no consequences and things will be better in Westeros?

There are plenty of criticisms that can be levelled at Dany.  But, both the Astapori envoy and Xaro are quite self-serving in their arguments.

Nobody forced Cleon to seize power, enslave the free population, and launch a war of aggression against Yunkai.  Nor could he have done these things without the backing of at least a substantial proportion of the population.  They brought their fate on themselves.

WRT Meereen, Xaro is only correct from the point of view of people like himself.  Pre-Dany, Meereen was a hell-hole for much of its population, and its leaders were responsible for turning much of the interior of Essos into a hell-hole, by paying the Dothraki and corsairs to enslave free people.

[Britisher]

30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There are plenty of criticisms that can be levelled at Dany.  But, both the Astapori envoy and Xaro are quite self-serving in their arguments.

Nobody forced Cleon to seize power, enslave the free population, and launch a war of aggression against Yunkai.  Nor could he have done these things without the backing of at least a substantial proportion of the population.  They brought their fate on themselves.

WRT Meereen, Xaro is only correct from the point of view of people like himself.  Pre-Dany, Meereen was a hell-hole for much of its population, and its leaders were responsible for turning much of the interior of Essos into a hell-hole, by paying the Dothraki and corsairs to enslave free people.

Daenerys created the conditions which allowed for Cleon to come into power in Astapor - she ruined the city's economy overnight by abolishing the slave trade; she murdered a good chunk of the city's the ruling elite, replacing them with a flimsy proxy government without an army and she caused an exodus in the city's population (in other words she created a massive power vacuum in the city). Most of the city's former slave population who decided against marching with Daenerys would be infirm, unarmed, disorganised and (potentially) more hospitable to the slave trade/more resentful of Daenerys conquest. She subsequently left the city in poverty and ruin, and then she turned her back on the mess she created allowing for the Yunkai and their allies to butcher the city's population. 

Did Daenerys make life in Meereen any better? No. Her arrival resulted in a huge, unsustainable increase in the city's population; economic collapse through her abolition of the slave trade (the city's only industry) and war. That point is laughable: slavery is rife across Essos. Daenerys conquest of Slaver's Bay has done little to prevent the Dothraki from enslaving people and selling them over to Yunkai, Lys and Myr.

[Tucu]

55 minutes ago, SeanF said:

There are plenty of criticisms that can be levelled at Dany.  But, both the Astapori envoy and Xaro are quite self-serving in their arguments.

Nobody forced Cleon to seize power, enslave the free population, and launch a war of aggression against Yunkai.  Nor could he have done these things without the backing of at least a substantial proportion of the population.  They brought their fate on themselves.

WRT Meereen, Xaro is only correct from the point of view of people like himself.  Pre-Dany, Meereen was a hell-hole for much of its population, and its leaders were responsible for turning much of the interior of Essos into a hell-hole, by paying the Dothraki and corsairs to enslave free people.

 

32 minutes ago, Britisher said:

Daenerys created the conditions which allowed for Cleon to come into power in Astapor - she ruined the city's economy overnight by abolishing the slave trade; she murdered a good chunk of the city's the ruling elite, replacing them with a flimsy proxy government without an army and she caused an exodus in the city's population (in other words she created a massive power vacuum in the city). Most of the city's former slave population who decided against marching with Daenerys would be infirm, unarmed, disorganised and (potentially) more hospitable to the slave trade/more resentful of Daenerys conquest. She subsequently left the city in poverty and ruin, and then she turned her back on the mess she created allowing for the Yunkai and their allies to butcher the city's population. 

Did Daenerys make life in Meereen any better? No. Her arrival resulted in a huge, unsustainable increase in the city's population; economic collapse through her abolition of the slave trade (the city's only industry) and war. That point is laughable: slavery is rife across Essos. Daenerys conquest of Slaver's Bay has done little to prevent the Dothraki from enslaving people and selling them over to Yunkai, Lys and Myr.

Yes, she leaves a a healer, a scholar and a priest to rule (men with no previous experience) and no army. The war between Yunkai and Astapor was predictable; Yunkai would immediately try to squash the "liberated" city.

I will leave another assessment, this time by Quentyn:

"The Red City was the closest thing to hell he ever hoped to know"

[teej6]

Between Sansa and Dany, I believe I'd choose Dany, simply because she's had more experience (granted nothing to brag about) than Sansa. Another trait of Dany that wins her points is her willingness (if only to herself) to somewhat admit her mistakes. That being said, I also feel that every place so far that Dany has conquered or ruled has come to or will soon be in ruin. I don't see why Westeros should be any different. Her whole Dragons plant no trees philosophy can't bode well for the population of Westeros. In coming to Westeros Dany won't be fighting any cartoonish villains such as the slavers, but houses and people both good and bad that oppose her. And the Dothraki and Ironborn (both groups that rape, pillage, and destroy innocents) will probably make up a big chunk of her army. IMO, at least initially, Dany is not going to be seen as the savior of Westeros rather she'll just be another conquering tyrant.

So, given the choice, I wouldn't have either Sansa or Dany rule anything. Sansa, because she lacks the experience (all the from pawn to player talk about Sansa is  only conjecture at this point) and Dany, because her experience has only made her turn (at least based on her thoughts in her last ADWD chapter) to conquest and rule through death and destruction. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

We'll see. And we might not have to choose....

The greatest portion of Westerosi history has seen the realm split up into several different Kindoms. I'm not going to be surprised if that's how it ends up.

Also, Dany already is a queen. Provided that she doesn't go nuts, I doubt her reign in Westeros will look much different than it does in Meereen.

I don't really know who would be better between the two. Has Sansa demonstrated any proclivity or characteristic that says she's be any good? She seems like she would be fairly pliable. She seems like she would yield to wise counsel...or really any counsel for that matter.

I don't know...I guess I'd vote for Dany. I'm secretly really just hoping for Stannis with Davos as Hand.

[Hodor the Articulate]

I don't really get the point of this comparison. Dany is already a Queen, and whatever your opinions on her performance, she's at least gotten plenty of experience, as well as plenty of supporters. Sansa, meanwhile, wasn't brought up to rule, she's got no experience in ruling, and she has no claim to the IT. She still has no agency, and is currently suffering from Stockholm's Syndrome. The most you could say about her, is that she manages the Eyrie well (as she should- being a lady is what she was brought up to do), though looking after a castle isn't the same as managing a country.

You might as well be comparing Robb and Bran.

16 hours ago, Oracle.Clear.Rivers said:

I'm not dismissing Dany's experience. You're misunderstanding me. I'm aware that she's a character who had a very hard life and unlike Sansa, she didn't get to have a happy childhood. She's someone who went from a rock hard bottom kind of life as an on-the-run exiled orphan living in fear of an abusive brother to now the top of the food chain Queen Conqueror who has yet to experience absolute defeat. For someone who has been in a submissive position during a large portion of her life, that authoritative power could blind her from any consequences of her actions (which did happened in canon). She might not realize that she is now someone who is feared by others. She might not remember how it was like living in constant fear. She went from zero to hero so fast, she might forget who she once was (hunted, abused, deprived - a victim) and how integral it is to her current identity (I think this is one of the things Quaithe meant with her "Remember who you are" advise.) 

I fear for Dany because what will happen when consequences of her actions as someone with power finally caught up to her. What if she was dragged down from the top? What would she do when she lost her power even for a moment? She has yet to face the full brunt of the problems she caused and resolve it on her own. So, for me, she isn't "tested" yet and, in turn, best queen material.

What basis do you have for such fears? Everything Dany has done so far, good or bad, has been motivated by her compassion for the oppressed, which in turn is borne out of her experiences as a victim. It's a big part of the character and there's nothing to indicate that it's going to change.

Moreover, why is forgetting past trauma and mistakes a problem for Dany, but not for Sansa?

On 29/08/2016 at 0:36 AM, Drogonthedread said:

I strongly disagree with most of this ..

1) what is this extreme sense of entitlement you are talking about .

For someone who was raised by viserys she believes that queenship and kingship is to serve people and its their duty and not about power and right...and how many other characters you have seen having the same beliefs... Just a handful of people ..

She has a belief of what exactly varys claims as a best thing in ruler i.e., raised as viewing queenship is their duty and its for the people. .

[snip'd for space]

God, am I sick of characters being accused of being entitled. Of course they're entitled; they live in a society where power is inherited ffs! But like you say, Dany is one of the few characters that doesn't ever see herself as worthy of ruling, just 'cuz. She actually seeks to improve herself, and that counts for something.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

35 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

She still has no agency, and is currently suffering from Stockholm's Syndrome.

No she's not. 

[Kaibaman]

12 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I don't really get the point of this comparison. Dany is already a Queen, and whatever your opinions on her performance, she's at least gotten plenty of experience, as well as plenty of supporters. Sansa, meanwhile, wasn't brought up to rule, she's got no experience in ruling, and she has no claim to the IT. She still has no agency, and is currently suffering from Stockholm's Syndrome. The most you could say about her, is that she manages the Eyrie well (as she should- being a lady is what she was brought up to do), though looking after a castle isn't the same as managing a country.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I don't know why people keep saying that Sansa would make a better queen than Dany first of all she has no experience in ruling, and while she may starting to learn the intricacies of political intrigue and maneuvering, that's not the same thing as hands on day to day administration on an epic scale. Secondly Sansa has no real political or military gifts and if she was propped up to rule, she would at best be a figurehead to somebody else's machinations (aka Littlefinger). And what's more is that unlike Robb and Jon, Sansa is not a strongman. She has no political capital or renown to call her own and thus it would be harder for people to accept her as their sovereign. But thirdly, unlike Dany, Arya and Jon, Sansa has mostly been sheltered for most of her life. She never had to work a single day in her life and grew up in comfort at Winterfell, she continued to live a comfortable lifestyle even as a hostage in the Red Keep, she now still lives a comfortable and mostly carefree existence within that ivory tower called the Eyrie. How could she understand the hardships and struggles of the lowborn (who she detests) to want to help them out and improve their standards of living?

[BlueNightzx]

none of them, two spoiled entitled brats.

I would go with arianne or Margaery, even asha.

[Drogonthedread]

Its not really surprising that this thread turned the way it is ..

 

21 hours ago, khal drogon said:

Why am I saying people(not all but most of them) who usually argue against Dany have a very poor understanding or sometimes ignorant about certain parts of her story arc? And I am seeing a lot of them fixating them on a few things in her arc to judge her instead of seeing everything in her arc. Normally what I see from such people is they take an event from her arc and try to explain it their own way why she did it while her entire thought process is shown to you. 

This is my main problem as well....while other characters are overpraised for even small small things ...people just try to compress dany's character into just three actions crucification and torture and astopor ...while completely ignoring the whole characterisation and growth of dany as a character..

 

You see any good thing she done the credit goes to someone but any bad thing even though its not her fault the blame goes on her ..

I mean you can put it down as religious fanaticism for revolt and you will credit quentyn or tyrion for bringing sellswords when either of them didn't do anything like that .

Claims such as Dany doesnt learn or excel in whatever she does ...I don't know about what books happens that ..she is shown to be excellent at learning quick and constantly question her people and she openly admits the things she doesn't know and learns from her advisors .she has an eye for the surrounding and ears for what people say ..

And  what's most irritating thing is she is one who openly admits where she is wrong and keeps thinking and worrying about it.   But people will still aoemhow ignore it and atoll place the blame 

 

Mostly there are only claims and not backed up at all ...its easy to claim that she has extreme sense of entitlement wherre she wants everyone kneel to her or treat jorah and barristan bad ...but one cant back it up with books ..

Its easy to say she is mad and like cersei and aeeys in believing in prophecy ..

But in the books she openly questions the prophecy and doubts them ..she doesn't for instance didn't kill quentyn even when warned about him...imagine what cersei and aerys would have done...buy dany still cares for the well being of him and tries to have alliance in another way ..

 

She has admitted that astopor was mistake why keep bringing that up while no one says it was a success  ..yes astopor was hell when quentyn went.. It was hell when dany went too..astopor and slavers bay was hell period...people acting like those placea where paradise in heaven before dany came 

I mean slaves had a better life and they are better off without dany..Do we even have anything to support this claim..while she us blamed for a plague ...the killings of making a slave and for fun is all put down as culture..for an example I used making of unsullied as an example but then people go on about jpw its tyevonly bad thing and slaves in yunaki and meereen were better... Just how many have to die to make a one good better slave ..if dany was a slaver ..she will be blamed for all the killings from the start of time.

 

19 hours ago, Oracle.Clear.Rivers said:

I'm not dismissing Dany's experience. You're misunderstanding me. I'm aware that she's a character who had a very hard life and unlike Sansa, she didn't get to have a happy childhood. She's someone who went from a rock hard bottom kind of life as an on-the-run exiled orphan living in fear of an abusive brother to now the top of the food chain Queen Conqueror who has yet to experience absolute defeat. For someone who has been in a submissive position during a large portion of her life, that authoritative power could blind her from any consequences of her actions (which did happened in canon). She might not realize that she is now someone who is feared by others. She might not remember how it was like living in constant fear. She went from zero to hero so fast, she might forget who she once was (hunted, abused, deprived - a victim) and how integral it is to her current identity (I think this is one of the things Quaithe meant with her "Remember who you are" advise.) 

I fear for Dany because what will happen when consequences of her actions as someone with power finally caught up to her. What if she was dragged down from the top? What would she do when she lost her power even for a moment? She has yet to face the full brunt of the problems she caused and resolve it on her own. So, for me, she isn't "tested" yet and, in turn, best queen material.

 

And sansa is.

For me she has been facing the consequences of her actions in the last two books very well ..

And all that isbecause she remembers about how afraid and helpless when she was young and that's the whole reasons why she connects to slaves and frees them..

everything from ASOs startd with dany Questioning three things to jorah and barristan..

And the three things are :

I was scared growing up as girl and helpless and viserys instead of peotecting he beat her up..

Why do gods make kings and Queens if not to protect those who can't protect themselves 

its easy to say go begging when one dont know what its to be a begger and begged and as a slave..

So dany's whole action is based upon because of who she was whipw she is younger and growing up..

She knows the amount of power of she wields and she is afraid of the power she wields and what can happen with it in ADWD .

 

2 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I don't really get the point of this comparison. Dany is already a Queen, and whatever your opinions on her performance, she's at least gotten plenty of experience, as well as plenty of supporters. Sansa, meanwhile, wasn't brought up to rule, she's got no experience in ruling, and she has no claim to the IT. She still has no agency, and is currently suffering from Stockholm's Syndrome. The most you could say about her, is that she manages the Eyrie well (as she should- being a lady is what she was brought up to do), though looking after a castle isn't the same as managing a country.

You might as well be comparing Robb and Bran.

What basis do you have for such fears? Everything Dany has done so far, good or bad, has been motivated by her compassion for the oppressed, which in turn is borne out of her experiences as a victim. It's a big part of the character and there's nothing to indicate that it's going to change.

Moreover, why is forgetting past trauma and mistakes a problem for Dany, but not for Sansa?

God, am I sick of characters being accused of being entitled. Of course they're entitled; they live in a society where power is inherited ffs! But like you say, Dany is one of the few characters that doesn't ever see herself as worthy of ruling, just 'cuz. She actually seeks to improve herself, and that counts for something.

Agree with everything you say ..

This thread is really a contest between the two...and the most annoying thing is if we choose one of the two contenders ..OP will come at how that one is mad dictator ,Hitler ,idi amin, darth vadar ,Genghis khan , Mussolini,... Well you get my point..

Maybe OP should have started How dany is all of the above instead of asking who will be best queen out of two especially if he is not going to like when people answer onenog the one of the two and lists good things about the one..

[Drogonthedread]

32 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

none of them, two spoiled entitled brats.

I would go with arianne or Margaery, even asha.

Yeah because none of them are entitled brats like you say..

[Nictarion]

How is a girl who grew up a beggar "spoiled?" Dany remembers being able to buy a sausage as a luxury. Viserys had to sell his mother's crown just so they could eat, ffs.

I have no idea what books some of you people read. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

3 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

No she's not. 

No, I was being lazy, but it's something like it. I haven't read the books in a while, but I remember her admiring LF's intelligence, and even calling him brave. I don't think she fully trusts him, but she does think of him as someone who will keep her safe. In any case, there's something funky going on in Sansa's head. She's blocked Lysa's confession from her memory and practices extreme compartmentalisation. Not exactly Queen material atm.

[khal drogon]

On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 9:38 AM, BlueNightzx said:

none of them, two spoiled entitled brats.

I would go with arianne or Margaery, even asha.

Surprised with Arianne who is the biggest brat in the list. 

[khal drogon]

On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Oracle.Clear.Rivers said:

I'm not dismissing Dany's experience. You're misunderstanding me. I'm aware that she's a character who had a very hard life and unlike Sansa, she didn't get to have a happy childhood. She's someone who went from a rock hard bottom kind of life as an on-the-run exiled orphan living in fear of an abusive brother to now the top of the food chain Queen Conqueror who has yet to experience absolute defeat. For someone who has been in a submissive position during a large portion of her life, that authoritative power could blind her from any consequences of her actions (which did happened in canon). She might not realize that she is now someone who is feared by others. She might not remember how it was like living in constant fear. She went from zero to hero so fast, she might forget who she once was (hunted, abused, deprived - a victim) and how integral it is to her current identity (I think this is one of the things Quaithe meant with her "Remember who you are" advise.) 

I fear for Dany because what will happen when consequences of her actions as someone with power finally caught up to her. What if she was dragged down from the top? What would she do when she lost her power even for a moment? She has yet to face the full brunt of the problems she caused and resolve it on her own. So, for me, she isn't "tested" yet and, in turn, best queen material.

 

Reread Dany's last chapter in ASOS. It's an underrated chapter that has Dany do exactly what you said reflect about the consequences of her actions and taking big steps. Also her whole ADWD is dealing with the consequences of her actions that imcludes decides to stay in Meereen to marrying a local and compromising with the locals in Meereen. 

I don't know what to say when you said she is "untested" material after reading her ADWD arc which is just test after test for her. Either you have stopped reading her chapters after ACOK or you are completely reading a different book. 

[BalerionTheCat]

Between the 2, I would choose Sansa. I believe she would have the cunning of LF, but without his lack of moral. And is becoming a good judge of people, which is one great quality for a ruler. Daenerys seems to be mostly lacking in this department, and has too much liking for the strength of arms and violence.

[INCBlackbird]

Dany crucified 163 people, how is this even a question? At this point I think anyone who isn't a psycho would be better then Dany. Also, I think that at this point Sansa would be quite competent.