A possible new take on the Rhaegar = Mance crackpot

[The North Forgot]

To have it said, I don't buy the Rhaegar = Mance theory at all, but I might have accidentally stumbled upon something. I'd guess most of us have seen the Mance - Bael the Bard connection, and if we say Rhaegar = Mance, even Mance's name could be a wordplay. Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna, so you could call him a manse raider = Mance Rayder. Rhaegar has been called "bookish to a fault", so I'd think he would have known about the story of Bael, could this be something or is it just me seeing a slight connection there?

[Light a wight tonight]

Martin's a big NFL freak, and Mance has to be named after the Oakland Raiders. The Wildlings are patterned after Raider Nation.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Mance, having Wildling blood, would claim descent from Bael anyway, as does Ygritte.

Rhaegar didn't abduct Lyanna from her father's castle/manse. He took her from a road. He also had two KG buddies help out. So far as we know, Bael managed to get his girl without needing accomplices.

[Sensenmenn]

I always thought he was arther dayne I mean he has brown hair, fights with and has great skill with a great sword, sings dornish music, and is good at making people love and respect him. 

[tugela]

On ‎8‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 7:46 PM, The North Forgot said:

To have it said, I don't buy the Rhaegar = Mance theory at all, but I might have accidentally stumbled upon something. I'd guess most of us have seen the Mance - Bael the Bard connection, and if we say Rhaegar = Mance, even Mance's name could be a wordplay. Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna, so you could call him a manse raider = Mance Rayder. Rhaegar has been called "bookish to a fault", so I'd think he would have known about the story of Bael, could this be something or is it just me seeing a slight connection there?

Mance Rayder = Prince Raegar. The names are very similar if you say them out loud.

Btw, Mance was lurking around at Winterfell when Robert came to visit.

[Macgregor of the North]

Rhaegar is as dead as dead can be. There are Mance comparisons no doubt but there is no way in hell he 'is' Mance.

"Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . ."

 "Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet."

GRRM Himself:

"What happened to Rhaegar's body?]
Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens."

I have never ever understood why people have before, and continue to think Rhaegar is Mance. 

Btw I'm not directing this at you OP as you have stated you dont believe it but I thought this thread was as good a place as any to say my peace. 

[Ser Joe of Generic Hall]

What if Mance is Rhaegar in Lonmouth's body?

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

"What happened to Rhaegar's body?]
Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens."

This especially. The HotU vision can be handwaved as "just a vision", Robert's account can be handwaved as someone else in Rhaegar's armour/glamoured as Rhaegar, but "Rhaegar was cremated" is as straightforward as it gets. If GRRM had said only "it is traditional for Targaryens to be cremated", there might have been some ambiguity, but "person XY was cremated" means that person XY is dead, and if they weren't prior their cremation, now they are.

[Viking]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Rhaegar is as dead as dead can be. There are Mance comparisons no doubt but there is no way in hell he 'is' Mance.

"Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . ."

There were two princes who loved a woman at the Trident. Do note that dany recognized Rhaegar as being like her brother in the bedside vision but refers to this one as a prince. Do note that Prince Luwyn of Dorne also died at the trident. Though the impeccably truthful source Littlefinger says it was Lyn Corbray that killed him. 

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

 "Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet."

Robert also calls Jon "your bastard" in conversation with Ned. Robert was injured, bystanders jumped for the rubies and bloated bodies are uncrecognizable. 

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

GRRM Himself:

"What happened to Rhaegar's body?]
Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens."

The body thought to be Rhaegar's, yes. 

 

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I have never ever understood why people have before, and continue to think Rhaegar is Mance. 

Btw I'm not directing this at you OP as you have stated you dont believe it but I thought this thread was as good a place as any to say my peace. 

Why do I think it is plausible?

Because Mance's blood is no more Royal that Jon Snows, because he has the right shape, height, age, skills, interests, colour schemes, passions, personality and objectives. 

Because if Mance were just Mance the most interesting thing about him (how cultured and educated he is) is ignored and glossed over. Becuase if you can achieve all the same results in a character by not making him king beyond the wall and you don't have to do the convoluted burning scheme Stannis does to achieve the result. In fact if you make Tormund King Beyond the wall and make Mance his Bard you no longer need glamours in the story at all. He is un-necessarily complex and illogical a character in a book series that is too long and is taking too long to write. 

Because Mance does not treat Jon like a regular black brother, he lets him keep his sword, he lets him protect his child and wife.

Try approaching this a different way, try assuming that Mance is Rhaegar and fly through the story in your mind and just observe how much of it starts to make sense. 

Mance Rayder is mentioned early on in the scenes when Robert visits the wall. He's named and described two books before he appears. Like everything else brought up at Roberts visit to Winterfell it has huge consequences, but... only if he is someone that matters and not some plot device to get Stannis up to the wall so Jon can meet Melisandre. 

Jon says that Mance's blood is no more Royal than his own. Jon says that not knowing that between the death of Vyseris and him swearing the Nights Watch oath he was the True King of Westeros. 

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Viking said:

The body thought to be Rhaegar's, yes. 

That reasoning might apply if "Rhaegar was cremated" was stated by an in-world character, that person certainly could have got the identity wrong (though not due to the body being bloated, that would require hours to days of soaking in the river, which is not the case here). But not the author, and his statement is not evasive or ambiguous. Rhaegar. 

3 hours ago, Viking said:

Try approaching this a different way, try assuming that Mance is Rhaegar and fly through the story in your mind and just observe how much of it starts to make sense. 

Er... you aware that this is doing things backwards, right? Gathering hints in the text to form a conclusion can bring people to see things your way.

[Viking]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

That reasoning might apply if "Rhaegar was cremated" was stated by an in-world character, that person certainly could have got the identity wrong (though not due to the body being bloated, that would require hours to days of soaking in the river, which is not the case here). But not the author, and his statement is not evasive or ambiguous. Rhaegar. 

Or it's said by a GRRM that is worried that his big reveal that he has been laying the groundwork for is about to be revealed. Plus Rhaegar can be cremated after dying in a book that hasn't been written yet. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Er... you aware that this is doing things backwards, right? Gathering hints in the text to form a conclusion can bring people to see things your way.

Well it has to do with context and plausibility. The thing is that if Rhaegar is alive and he is Mance Rayder then alot of stuff starts to make sense that was confusing. If you do entertain the idea (as Aristotle pointed out the sign of a great mind is the ability to entertain an idea without accepting it) then a whole bunch of things become clear and obvious.

• why is Rhaegar constantly referenced in the way he is
• why does Mance have this completely unnecessary back story
• why is Mance a character at all
• why Alfie Allen used Star Wars as his reference about Jon Snow's parentage
• why Jon gets special treatment when captured by the wildlings

This isn't an exercise to prove or disprove something, that will be done in a book that hasn't been published yet, this is an exercise to demonstrate it's plausibility and how this one supposition puts the actions of others into a reasonable context. 

[Ser Walton]

I agree that Mance = Rhaegar is very plausible. 

Martin saying he was cremated doesn't mean much of anything at this point, because the books aren't finished. He's not going to accurately answer a question just because a fan asked him, when it concerns a HUGE REVEAL that is in the books that are YET TO BE WRITTEN. 

Thought exercise: In 1977, if I had asked George Lucas what happened to Luke's father, he could easily say he was buried or cremated, because WHY ON EARTH WOULD HE TELL YOU THE BIG SECRET REVEAL that DARTH VADER is his father, alive and well? 

SSM's are chock full of good info, but only if it's about material already written, or about inconsequential matter.  Martin is not stupid, so why does everyone think he answers every question as if he has to answer it truthfully? All authors allude to, and set up their mysteries, just like Martin is doing. He just so happens to have an amazing source material, with clever and well written passages, and millions of eager fans with lots of years to figure it out in.  Typed on my phone, so pardon typos and autocorrects)t

 

In my opinion, anyone who refuses to at least entertain the thought, clearly doesn't know Martin well or how well he writes. You're only blinding yourself. Even Arya learned to see. 

 

[Macgregor of the North]

I simply do not and will not believe Mance is Rhaegar Targaryen, sorry guys, my time will be spent figuring out theories that may actually be proved true. This Mance/Rhaegar nonsense is tiresome to me now. 

No disrespect but I find it a waste of time. 

Apart from everything I've already stated there's even simpler things like his appearance. He is of middling height, has thick brown hair that is going grey, and brown eyes. Plus he was in the NW stationed at the shadow tower when Rhaegar was killed at the Trident. 

Rhaegar on the other hand however, does 'not' share any of those features, has been remarked by Dany to actually be tall, and there's no way Mance has been pulling a glamor all this time, or Rhaegar has somehow made his hair thicker and dyed it a brown grey colour. 

Also, on the prince who took his last breath on the trident, that was Rhaegar for sure as rubies flew from his chest- meaning it's Rhaegar, no question. 

Let it go guys. There's so much other awesome topics you can apply your time to. This is a waste of time.

 

[Aegon VII]

On August 25, 2016 at 8:46 PM, The North Forgot said:

To have it said, I don't buy the Rhaegar = Mance theory at all, but I might have accidentally stumbled upon something. I'd guess most of us have seen the Mance - Bael the Bard connection, and if we say Rhaegar = Mance, even Mance's name could be a wordplay. Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna, so you could call him a manse raider = Mance Rayder. Rhaegar has been called "bookish to a fault", so I'd think he would have known about the story of Bael, could this be something or is it just me seeing a slight connection there?

Here's another take on it. Mance rayder, the man once rhaegar. Sounds pretty similar! I do think mr=RT is very plausible though!

[PCK]

On 8/25/2016 at 10:51 PM, Light a wight tonight said:

Martin's a big NFL freak, and Mance has to be named after the Oakland Raiders. The Wildlings are patterned after Raider Nation.

Does that make Stannis the Tampa Bay Buccaneers?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If this is going to be discussed again I'll have to work harder on my updating my Mance theory. 

13 minutes ago, PCK said:

Does that make Stannis the Tampa Bay Buccaneers?

Nah. Stannis is too stodgy for them. He'd be one of the older times like the Packers.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 8/25/2016 at 7:46 PM, The North Forgot said:

To have it said, I don't buy the Rhaegar = Mance theory at all, but I might have accidentally stumbled upon something. I'd guess most of us have seen the Mance - Bael the Bard connection, and if we say Rhaegar = Mance, even Mance's name could be a wordplay. Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna, so you could call him a manse raider = Mance Rayder. Rhaegar has been called "bookish to a fault", so I'd think he would have known about the story of Bael, could this be something or is it just me seeing a slight connection there?

That is the crack talking 

42 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

Here's another take on it. Mance rayder, the man once rhaegar. Sounds pretty similar! I do think mr=RT is very plausible though!

It is very plausible that bran sent rhaegar back in time to be birthed by a wildling woman so he could be raised by the watch and then rebel to become king beyond the wall because he would never sit on the IT. MANCE=RHAEGAR CONFIRMED !!!!!!!1!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!ONE!!!!!!!ELEVEN!!!!!ONEHUNDREDELEVEN!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aegon VII]

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That is the crack talking 

It is very plausible that bran sent rhaegar back in time to be birthed by a wildling woman so he could be raised by the watch and then rebel to become king beyond the wall because he would never sit on the IT. MANCE=RHAEGAR CONFIRMED !!!!!!!1!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!ONE!!!!!!!ELEVEN!!!!!ONEHUNDREDELEVEN!!!!!!!!!!!

No it's not. Mr=RT is a valid theory about asoiaf, your statement was a bad joke. You may not appreciate the difference, others do.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

21 minutes ago, Aegon VII said:

No it's not. Mr=RT is a valid theory about asoiaf, your statement was a bad joke. You may not appreciate the difference, others do.

I don't know how valid it is when a guy who works with GRRM and on whom GRRM relies for help with the millions of details in the series has repeatedly (and sometimes heatedly) said that Rhaegar Targaryen is dead. You've heard of Elio/Ran, right?

You probably weren't here during the height of the Mance = Rhaegar craze when people were posting three threads a week on it. That's when Ran lost his cool and posted in all caps that "Rhaegar Targaryen is f-ing dead."  Only he didn't shorten the f word.

[Aegon VII]

8 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I don't know how valid it is when a guy who works with GRRM and on whom GRRM relies for help with the millions of details in the series has repeatedly (and sometimes heatedly) said that Rhaegar Targaryen is dead. You've heard of Elio/Ran, right?

You probably weren't here during the height of the Mance = Rhaegar craze when people were posting three threads a week on it. That's when Ran lost his cool and posted in all caps that "Rhaegar Targaryen is f-ing dead."  Only he didn't shorten the f word.

Not familiar with this at all. Don't think it's enough to invalidate the theory in my mind, but I would love to learn more about it. I'll do some research but any links are appreciated! Thank you for the information. Again though I'll say, there is more than enough in the text to support mr=RT. If it's not true, GRRM was cognizant of how many parallels he made between mr and RT and purposely made the connections as a misdirection (granted, this is complete speculation on my part)