A possible new take on the Rhaegar = Mance crackpot

[Viking]

To prevent a convoluted Mance backstory he could just be what people say he is, the son of a nights watchman and a wildling woman. 

 

And re him knowing or not knowing, I have to ask, what consequences will there be for any plot or character if he is a decedent of bloodraven?

 

However if Mance is Rhaegar there are significant consequences for everybody. So what if R+L=J is nobody is about to tell Jon about the prophecy. Bloodraven can't because as he tells it to Bran he tells it to the reader spoiling it long before Jon finds out. 

 

Mance being descended from bloodraven doesn't seem to affect anything, be relevant, change anything, and most importantly casts bloodraven as an oathbreaker.

[Daendrew]

Jeanne Mance was co-founder of Montreal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Mance 

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Viking said:

To prevent a convoluted Mance backstory he could just be what people say he is, the son of a nights watchman and a wildling woman. 

Bloodraven's daughter by a wildling woman would be, surprise, surprise, a wildling woman. Who hooked up with a nightswatch man.

 

3 hours ago, Viking said:

And re him knowing or not knowing, I have to ask, what consequences will there be for any plot or character if he is a decedent of bloodraven?

He would be royal blood that might be sacrificed instead of Jon, for example.

3 hours ago, Viking said:

However if Mance is Rhaegar there are significant consequences for everybody.

Especially for GRRM, who said at one opportunity that Rhaegar was cremated, and at another that he is no liar. Both can't be true.

3 hours ago, Viking said:

So what if R+L=J is nobody is about to tell Jon about the prophecy. Bloodraven can't because as he tells it to Bran he tells it to the reader spoiling it long before Jon finds out. 

And who says that Jon and reader have to find out at the same time? We as readers know quite a couple of things that characters (yet) don't.

3 hours ago, Viking said:

Mance being descended from bloodraven doesn't seem to affect anything, be relevant, change anything, and most importantly casts bloodraven as an oathbreaker.

Read: I am wed to my personal theory and am not willing to consider anything else.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

9 hours ago, Viking said:

To prevent a convoluted Mance backstory he could just be what people say he is, the son of a nights watchman and a wildling woman. 

 

And re him knowing or not knowing, I have to ask, what consequences will there be for any plot or character if he is a decedent of bloodraven?

 

However if Mance is Rhaegar there are significant consequences for everybody. So what if R+L=J is nobody is about to tell Jon about the prophecy. Bloodraven can't because as he tells it to Bran he tells it to the reader spoiling it long before Jon finds out. 

 

Mance being descended from bloodraven doesn't seem to affect anything, be relevant, change anything, and most importantly casts bloodraven as an oathbreaker.

Only Selyse says that Mance's father was in the Night's Watch. Everyone else just says he was a Wildling child. We have no info on where Selyse got that information, but Gerrick Kingsblood would be my bet.

If Rhaegar wanted to join the Watch, why would he create the impossible to maintain cover story of having been found as a child by the Watch and raised by them? It's too easy to poke holes in that. There are too many people who should know him and wouldn't. 

There are myriad possibilities there, including him knowing things Bloodraven told him in case of not being able to find Bran, and that Bloodraven may or may not have time to teach Bran. There is a lot of symbolism tying him to Bloodraven. 

This is why we have Howland Reed, who GRRM has promised will be appearing. We don't need Rhaegar for this.

Doesn't seem that way to you. Bloodraven is already an oathbreaker. He promised Aenys Blackfyre safe passage and then killed him when he showed up in King's Landing. He left the Watch when he was their leader. He may still be protecting the realms of men, but he was kind of supposed to do that from Castle Black.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

He may still be protecting the realms of men, but he was kind of supposed to do that from Castle Black.

Lol, love this part !

[Red Man Racey]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 9:01 AM, Viking said:

Mance being descended from bloodraven doesn't seem to affect anything, be relevant, change anything, and most importantly casts bloodraven as an oathbreaker.

Surprise surprise, he is an oathbreaker. What are the words of the Night's Watch?

Quote

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

I've bolded the relevant sections. Bloodraven has already broken his oath ... and so what? Bloodraven broke his vows in order to better protect the realms of men. This is a recurring theme of the series - the juxtaposition of keeping oaths with doing what is right.

[Viking]

21 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Bloodraven's daughter by a wildling woman would be, surprise, surprise, a wildling woman. Who hooked up with a nightswatch man.

Yes, and that is incidental and irrellevant, that's the point. 

 

21 hours ago, Ygrain said:

He would be royal blood that might be sacrificed instead of Jon, for example.

something that has not been shown to have any effect yet. Dragon blood yes, Stannis' Grandmother's blood. But, again, I would observe that it is irrellevant since we know Shireen is going to get burned. Still that is a lot of convoluted plot and time and effort spent on a character, introduced in Robert's visit to Winterfell, he both was there and was a point of discussion among the characters that could have easily been resolved by having stannis take Edric Storm with him. 

This is the central issue. George writes his books as long as they need to be. He is under a lot of pressure to finish them quicker and yet you suggest that a very large part of his time is spent on providing a detailed, complex and involved background and plot development for a character who is future BBQ. 

 

21 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Especially for GRRM, who said at one opportunity that Rhaegar was cremated, and at another that he is no liar. Both can't be true.

yes, threaten the author or just accept that the cremation might be one that hasn't happened yet. 

 

 

21 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And who says that Jon and reader have to find out at the same time? We as readers know quite a couple of things that characters (yet) don't.

Becuase it's the big reveal of the prophecy about the main character. Remember Jon is the protagonist and POV character, Martin has written the books on purpose from the start choosing POVs and in Neds case selectively presenting parts of his memories to avoid telling us about it. We are as clueless as Jon (unless we read the forums) and we know nothing. 

 

21 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Read: I am wed to my personal theory and am not willing to consider anything else.

Read: Projection

[Viking]

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Only Selyse says that Mance's father was in the Night's Watch. Everyone else just says he was a Wildling child. We have no info on where Selyse got that information, but Gerrick Kingsblood would be my bet.

I'm not trying to debunk the Mance BloodRayder idea, I'm asking why it might matter or be relevant. 

 

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

If Rhaegar wanted to join the Watch, why would he create the impossible to maintain cover story of having been found as a child by the Watch and raised by them? It's too easy to poke holes in that. There are too many people who should know him and wouldn't.

 

My guess is that the real Mance Rayder found out about Rhaegar when Qorguyle and Aemon tried to cover it up. He was either killed to keep the secret or he died of plot convenience at which point Rhaegar assumes his identity and to protect himself from this happening again, he goes north of the wall to hide/fulfil prophecy using the mance rayder name as cover claiming to the wildlings that he was a nights watch defector. 

 

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

 

There are myriad possibilities there, including him knowing things Bloodraven told him in case of not being able to find Bran, and that Bloodraven may or may not have time to teach Bran. There is a lot of symbolism tying him to Bloodraven. 

This is why we have Howland Reed, who GRRM has promised will be appearing. We don't need Rhaegar for this.

Doesn't seem that way to you. Bloodraven is already an oathbreaker. He promised Aenys Blackfyre safe passage and then killed him when he showed up in King's Landing. He left the Watch when he was their leader. He may still be protecting the realms of men, but he was kind of supposed to do that from Castle Black.

Well given that Martin is the author he can contrive any situation he requires to advance the plot. My issue is that Mance BloodRayder has no apparent consequences to the plot. I might quibble on if Aenys was protected by an oath or not. It's the Nights Watch oath that Bloodraven breaks in that situation, the very oath Jon constantly goes on about trying to keep and how hard it is. Bloodraven as the last Greenseer keeps the oath as his watch protecting the realms of men has not ended. 

[Luddagain]

I certainly do not buy the idea that Mance is Rhaegar, or Arthur Dayne, however I am not convinced that either are dead.

I have just started to carefully reread GoT, trying to take not of every item - colour, eyes, smell, number, name and ambiguity.

In Eddard I, Robert says "I vowed to kill him."   Ned says you did and Robert corrects himself, but somehow his first phrase seems to matter. When taken with the quiet isle stuff later on, I think Rhaegar is alive (or was). He is waiting for the seventh ruby.

As to Mance, I think he may well be Jon's father, paralleling the Bael the bard story.  Somehow I see Lyanna more likely to be attracted to Mance than a Southern prince.

I also suspect that Mance (as was Bael the Bard) is is fact a Stark or a Snow or a Longrivers (son of Bloodraven) . He could of course also be Ned's uncle (son of Rodrik Stark). Or indeed he could be deliberately set up by GRRM as NOT having any blood of Kings or Lords at all - the idea of competence and merit being better than that of who your daddy was.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

7 hours ago, Viking said:

I'm not trying to debunk the Mance BloodRayder idea, I'm asking why it might matter or be relevant. 

My guess is that the real Mance Rayder found out about Rhaegar when Qorguyle and Aemon tried to cover it up. He was either killed to keep the secret or he died of plot convenience at which point Rhaegar assumes his identity and to protect himself from this happening again, he goes north of the wall to hide/fulfil prophecy using the mance rayder name as cover claiming to the wildlings that he was a nights watch defector. 

Well given that Martin is the author he can contrive any situation he requires to advance the plot. My issue is that Mance BloodRayder has no apparent consequences to the plot. I might quibble on if Aenys was protected by an oath or not. It's the Nights Watch oath that Bloodraven breaks in that situation, the very oath Jon constantly goes on about trying to keep and how hard it is. Bloodraven as the last Greenseer keeps the oath as his watch protecting the realms of men has not ended. 

I remembered something last night that might interest you, Viking. Bloodraven was legitimized. Meaning it's possible that any descendant of his is a legitimate Targaryen and thus a possible claimant for the throne, or acceptable regent for a Targ baby who is the last of the main line by the end of the series. This would also mean little Aemon Steelsong could be a legitimate Targ heir as well...if he lives.

That's different. What is normally suggested is that the real Mance Rayder died and Rhaegar just took over his life using a glamour (which is impossible without wearing a ruby, and Mance doesn't) or using his training from the Faceless Men. I have to say that I find even the Faceless Men idea less far-fetched than Rhaegar taking over the identity of a man who was still alive. That's beyond reckless and begging for his cover to be blown.

If he is not TDtwP then he can't fulfill anything. Interesting note that prophecy features so strongly in so many of our discussions on this board, but GRRM has said that the fans should pay less attention to the prophecies and more to Old Nan's stories. The prophecies themselves could be red herrings.

And that would be a fair quibble. But as Hand of the King his word should be considered on equal footing with an oath, and he broke it. It is interesting to note that he could have claimed the technicality of only having assured safe passage to King's Landing, not once inside it. But instead Bloodraven said he had sacrificed his honor for the sake of the realm. 

[Asshai Backwards]

While I agree that there are plenty of reasons to disagree with the Mance = Rhaegar claim, I too find it incredibly compelling from a narrative standpoint.  To add to the evidence listed by others above, I find Mance's willing and reckless foray into Winterfell, mysterious spear women in tow.  He's doing this, "bending the knee," to repay Stannis for not burning him?  Or is he there for other reasons?  Maybe to reclaim Winterfell, and a certain artifact hidden within.

I also believe Quorin plays a significant role in this, and was possibly Arthur Dayne.  I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that it was from only Quorin that we actually hear that story of Mance's supposed origins as an orphan.  Quorin helped Mance become king, selectively rangering after Wildlings that refused to fall in line; he was just finishing up with the last one before he arrived to deliver Jon to his father.

The Quiet Isle and the rubies…

Val--she is no true Wilding in my estimation, and Mance didn't just stumble across her on the road…

Given how dangerous climbing over the wall turned out to be for Jon and co., it makes much more sense to me that Mance was using Sam's door on his many forays South of the Wall; although this doesn't preclude Mance necessarily, it does seem like something Rhaegar (perhaps with Aemon's help) had learned about from reading his books. (Extra-thick tinfoil alert:  Quorin also knew about it, which is why he, reanimated as Coldhands, took Sam and Gilly that way.) 

Someone said they cremated the body.  How convenient.

And while I wasn't around back then to witness it, the angry protestations of the legendary Ran are just…too much, I doth think.

[Ygrain]

14 hours ago, Viking said:

yes, threaten the author or just accept that the cremation might be one that hasn't happened yet. 

Please, show where people talk in past tense about things that haven't happened yet. You can start any time.

14 hours ago, Viking said:

We are as clueless as Jon (unless we read the forums) and we know nothing. 

Speak for yourself - plenty of people figured out completely without the forums. Besides, there are other plot points throughout the series which readers know and characters don't.

 

45 minutes ago, Asshai Backwards said:

Someone said they cremated the body.  How convenient.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Forum_Chat

[What happened to Rhaegar's body?]

Rhaegar was cremated, as is traditional for fallen Targaryens.

[Viking]

5 hours ago, Asshai Backwards said:

 

I also believe Quorin plays a significant role in this, and was possibly Arthur Dayne.  I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me that it was from only Quorin that we actually hear that story of Mance's supposed origins as an orphan.  Quorin helped Mance become king, selectively rangering after Wildlings that refused to fall in line; he was just finishing up with the last one before he arrived to deliver Jon to his father.

I actually think Qorin halfhalf would be Jonothor Darry in the MR crackpot. He's the only one of Aery's 7 that isn't accounted for. Lannister, Selmy, Dayne, Martell, Whent and Hightower are at least nominally accounted for, Darry isn't. 

[Red Man Racey]

3 hours ago, Viking said:

I actually think Qorin halfhalf would be Jonothor Darry in the MR crackpot. He's the only one of Aery's 7 that isn't accounted for. Lannister, Selmy, Dayne, Martell, Whent and Hightower are at least nominally accounted for, Darry isn't. 

Darry is stated to have been slain at the Trident so he is at least nominally accounted for. Jaime thinks about this during his vigil over Tywin's bier in the Sept of Baelor. Additionally, TWoIaF lists him as being slain at the Trident. No, we don't see him die on page but to say he isn't accounted for is incorrect.

[cgrav]

20 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

That's different. What is normally suggested is that the real Mance Rayder died and Rhaegar just took over his life using a glamour (which is impossible without wearing a ruby, and Mance doesn't) or using his training from the Faceless Men. I have to say that I find even the Faceless Men idea less far-fetched than Rhaegar taking over the identity of a man who was still alive. That's beyond reckless and begging for his cover to be blown.

I think the only sensible Rhaegar glamor theory is that someone apppearing as Rhaegar died at the Trident while real Rhaegar fled north. That is, there was no Mance Rayder until Rhaegar assumed the identity. As far as I know, the only thing even hinting at such a possibility is the rubies in the description of his death. But I also suspect that GRRM uses those sometimes just to tell us that something is not quite what it appears, even when glamors are not involved. That means any deceit could be something other than his name or appearance. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 2/27/2017 at 0:50 PM, Luddagain said:

I certainly do not buy the idea that Mance is Rhaegar, or Arthur Dayne, however I am not convinced that either are dead.

I have just started to carefully reread GoT, trying to take not of every item - colour, eyes, smell, number, name and ambiguity.

In Eddard I, Robert says "I vowed to kill him."   Ned says you did and Robert corrects himself, but somehow his first phrase seems to matter. When taken with the quiet isle stuff later on, I think Rhaegar is alive (or was). He is waiting for the seventh ruby.

As to Mance, I think he may well be Jon's father, paralleling the Bael the bard story.  Somehow I see Lyanna more likely to be attracted to Mance than a Southern prince.

I also suspect that Mance (as was Bael the Bard) is is fact a Stark or a Snow or a Longrivers (son of Bloodraven) . He could of course also be Ned's uncle (son of Rodrik Stark). Or indeed he could be deliberately set up by GRRM as NOT having any blood of Kings or Lords at all - the idea of competence and merit being better than that of who your daddy was.

Actually Bloodraven was legitimized so it's entirely possible that he married a Wildling woman (after "disappearing" on a ranging) and any children of that union would in fact be Targaryens. 

Bael himself was not a Stark or Snow. He was just a Wildling. It was his son who was a Snow, being half-Stark and then was supposedly legitimized to rule after his grandfather as Lord Stark or King in the North. 

But you might like this idea...Bael and the Stark girl had twins. She kept one twin, Bale took the other north of the Wall, and some Wildlings, Mance included, have Stark blood.

[Striz]

I've always felt this was a fun theory that works in a lot of different ways, although to me the major gap is HOW Rhaegar could ever actually make it to the Wall w/out anyone knowing....

 

That aside, this quote from Jon always jumped out at me in Samwell I aFfC,

 

“Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It’s nonsense. Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He’s a brigand, nothing more. There’s no power in brigand’s blood.”
The raven looked up from the floor. “Blood,” it screamed.

 

Knowing just how royal Jon's blood is, the quote is quite ironic. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

3 hours ago, Striz said:

I've always felt this was a fun theory that works in a lot of different ways, although to me the major gap is HOW Rhaegar could ever actually make it to the Wall w/out anyone knowing....

 

That aside, this quote from Jon always jumped out at me in Samwell I aFfC,

 

“Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It’s nonsense. Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He’s a brigand, nothing more. There’s no power in brigand’s blood.”
The raven looked up from the floor. “Blood,” it screamed.

 

Knowing just how royal Jon's blood is, the quote is quite ironic. 

Jon tends to do that. As a consequence of him thinking he's no Aemon Targaryen, I'm betting if he has a Targ name it's Aemon.

I think Dany may be doing it too. I wonder if it's a Targ thing?

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Jon tends to do that. As a consequence of him thinking he's no Aemon Targaryen, I'm betting if he has a Targ name it's Aemon.

I think Dany may be doing it too. I wonder if it's a Targ thing?

I think there are already plenty of Aemon's, especially now with little Aemon Steelsong, it may be a little redundant. But I have wondered what his Targ name would've been, if in fact he was to have been given one. I'm thinking maybe Daemon.

[Red Man Racey]

17 hours ago, cgrav said:

I think the only sensible Rhaegar glamor theory is that someone apppearing as Rhaegar died at the Trident while real Rhaegar fled north. That is, there was no Mance Rayder until Rhaegar assumed the identity. As far as I know, the only thing even hinting at such a possibility is the rubies in the description of his death. But I also suspect that GRRM uses those sometimes just to tell us that something is not quite what it appears, even when glamors are not involved. That means any deceit could be something other than his name or appearance. 

This definitely doesn't work since Mance Rayder was raised by the Night's Watch at the Wall. There most certainly was a Mance Rayder long before Robert's Rebellion.