Davos vs Littlefinger - Season 7

[JonGreen]

Like many, I'm thoroughly looking forward to seeing Season 7 of the TV Series however not for the reason most people are interested in.
I'm hanging to see the battle between Davos and Littlefinger. 

Davos, is a straight talker who can sniff out a lie faster than anyone else we've seen on the TV series. His exceptional at understanding the political landscape and the pitfalls if you make the wrong decision. Littlefinger has always been able to manipulate even the smartest of game players. His been leading the entire TV show and is the only person in the kingdom who can say he knows whats going to happen next, cause he masterminded it. 

Davos is Jon's trusted source and Sansa still clings to Littlefinger for his mentorship. Whilst people can discuss the Jon vs Sansa, it will really be between Davos and Littlefinger and if Davos can sniff out Littlefingers plan before it's too late.

My bet is that Davos sniffs out Littlefingers plan in the last episode but before it all comes to a climatic end, the real bad guys begin their assault and the game doesn't even matter anymore. Littlefinger will be one of the WW first victims!
 

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

LF thrives on knowing people's weaknesses, and appealing to certain people's motives to gain their trust, some sort of leverage over them, or use that weakness or motive to drive a certain character to do things he wants. Davos was born and raised in the slums of KL, coming from nothing and has no clear ambitions, end goal, or desires. Most people LF has played have always had clear motives and agendas and LF plays on these (Joffrey, Cersei, Ned, Robert, Lysa, etc) and he has used that to his advantage but trying to play and appeal to someone like Davos might be a bit of a challenge.

Though in the end LF is better at the game than Davos and would probably ultimately beat him. Even if Davos can sniff out LF's deceptions. As LF has also outplayed another who has no clear desires either, Varys. 

We know that Varys "rather enjoys" vocally sparring with LF.  Its unknown if LF considers Varys his equal or respects him in some form as well. As we rarely get Baelish's personal thoughts on other characters. Unless I'm mistaken and he has given his thoughts on Varys as I can't remember everything right now off the top of my head lol

[A Ghost of Someone]

Sansa said to Jon herself, "only a fool would trust Littlefinger". How Season 5 and 6 have gone, the fact that LF is still walking and talking in Winterfell is sort of a plot hole. IF LF lives into season 8, it will be beyond rediculous.

[Future Null Infinity]

I'm fairly certain that it will not be a battle between LF and Davos or any interaction between those two, Baelish is part of Sansa story and in S6 you can observe a clear separation between the two stories (Sansa didn't interact with Melisandre, LF didn't interact with Jon....), Jon and Davos will go on their way to fight the NK and Sansa will stay with the best player in GoT and go to King's Landing

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

Also at the moment, really nobody knows how big of a threat LF can actually be aside from Olenna, Sansa, Brienne and Varys. Davos has never met LF before this. Tormund has no clue who LF is. Jon barely knows LF, only knowing a few things through Sansa. Cersei still has no idea how bad LF has been fucking her figuratively since pretty much the beginning of the series.

Sweet Robin is still the LP of the Vale, and not that many people realize that he is essentially LF's puppet, aside from Lord Royce and Sansa. So at the moment Davos probably doesn't see LF as a threat so I don't really know if any conflict will arise between them as @Future Null Infinity just said Baelish and Sansa probably won't be sticking around in WF long enough.

[A Ghost of Someone]

2 hours ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Also at the moment, really nobody knows how big of a threat LF can actually be aside from Olenna, Sansa, Brienne and Varys. Davos has never met LF before this. Tormund has no clue who LF is. Jon barely knows LF, only knowing a few things through Sansa. Cersei still has no idea how bad LF has been fucking her figuratively since pretty much the beginning of the series.

Sweet Robin is still the LP of the Vale, and not that many people realize that he is essentially LF's puppet, aside from Lord Royce and Sansa. So at the moment Davos probably doesn't see LF as a threat so I don't really know if any conflict will arise between them as @Future Null Infinity just said Baelish and Sansa probably won't be sticking around in WF long enough.

Sweet Robin is the Lord of the Vale. In the books atleast, LF is the lord Protector as Sweet Robin is a minor child. The show, he seems to be the little hand or chief advisor to Sweet Robin or something. Sweet Robin grew up physically but not much mentally.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

1 minute ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

Sweet Robin is the Lord of the Vale. In the books atleast, LF is the lord Protector as Sweet Robin is a minor child. The show, he seems to be the little hand or chief advisor to Sweet Robin or something. Sweet Robin grew up physically but not much mentally.

Robin is still the rightful Lord of the Vale and LF is pretty much the regent in this case. LF is in the same position that Cersei was to Joffrey and Tommen before she became Queen outright. LF can manipulate Robin to get what he wants, but if Robin felt like it he could just have LF thrown through the moon door on a whim and LF wouldn't really be able to do anything about it. Like how Joffrey just decided to take Ned's head despite his mother's counsel to send him to the watch (though it was most likely LF that manipulated Joffrey to take Ned's head instead, probably giving Joffrey some bullshit spin like "Treason is a major crime and you should show the people treason won't be tolerated" or something like that)

[Ruhail]

Hopefully, Davos gets killed next season.

[A Ghost of Someone]

26 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Robin is still the rightful Lord of the Vale and LF is pretty much the regent in this case. LF is in the same position that Cersei was to Joffrey and Tommen before she became Queen outright. LF can manipulate Robin to get what he wants, but if Robin felt like it he could just have LF thrown through the moon door on a whim and LF wouldn't really be able to do anything about it. Like how Joffrey just decided to take Ned's head despite his mother's counsel to send him to the watch (though it was most likely LF that manipulated Joffrey to take Ned's head instead, probably giving Joffrey some bullshit spin like "Treason is a major crime and you should show the people treason won't be tolerated" or something like that)

On the show, Robin is bribed at this point by LF to give LF power. Sweet Robin is a mental NIT-WIT but it seems he could get rid of anyone, including LF at any time.

[Future Null Infinity]

4 hours ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

just said Baelish and Sansa probably won't be sticking around in WF long enough.

Just thinking about a conflict between those two is blasphemy, how one can put the name of Davos "ass licker" Seaworth next to the grandmaster Baelish ? 

[Lord Lannister]

Littlefinger vs Nofinger? I guess there's irony points there.

[JonGreen]

19 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Littlefinger vs Nofinger? I guess there's irony points there.

LOL! Gold.

I'm quite confused as to how you can possibly foresee Sansa and Littlefinger going to Kingslanding when the final scenes of season 6 shows major preemptive motives for Sansa and Littlefinger to stay in Winterfell and claim Sansa as Queen of the North?

Whilst I understand that Davos and LF haven't had any dialogue in season 6, it just meant that it wasn't necessary to the major plot point. What was necessary was to foreshadow that Sansa and Jon do not see eye to eye. 

On 8/28/2016 at 6:03 AM, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

Also at the moment, really nobody knows how big of a threat LF can actually be aside from Olenna, Sansa, Brienne and Varys. Davos has never met LF before this. Tormund has no clue who LF is. Jon barely knows LF, only knowing a few things through Sansa. Cersei still has no idea how bad LF has been fucking her figuratively since pretty much the beginning of the series.

Sweet Robin is still the LP of the Vale, and not that many people realize that he is essentially LF's puppet, aside from Lord Royce and Sansa. So at the moment Davos probably doesn't see LF as a threat so I don't really know if any conflict will arise between them as @Future Null Infinity just said Baelish and Sansa probably won't be sticking around in WF long enough.

Davos doesn't see any threat yet. However with some political maneuvering from Sansa, LF will expose his intentions and Davos will be the only one who will figure it out (I believe). Jon's main focus is and will always be the threat from the WW. 

My guess the issue that props up is Dany. She may send ravens to the houses she feel she can join with marriage as was her intentions in Season 6. Sansa and LF will caution not to respond (sensing a threat to their plans). Davos would recommend this as strategically their army, their dragons will be needed for the major fight with the WW. Thus, Davos will interchange dialogue with LF to persuade Jon to marry Dany.

[The Arthur Smith]

On 8/27/2016 at 5:43 AM, Future Null Infinity said:

Sansa will stay with the best player in GoT and go to King's Landing

But why would Sansa want to go to King's Landing? Unless she is persuade by Littlefinger or some circumstances like exile or something, but Sansa doesn't want to return there. She suffered enough and wish to be with her family - Winterfell. If anything, it's inevitable LF is going down in season 7.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

1 hour ago, JonGreen said:

LOL! Gold.

I'm quite confused as to how you can possibly foresee Sansa and Littlefinger going to Kingslanding when the final scenes of season 6 shows major preemptive motives for Sansa and Littlefinger to stay in Winterfell and claim Sansa as Queen of the North?

Whilst I understand that Davos and LF haven't had any dialogue in season 6, it just meant that it wasn't necessary to the major plot point. What was necessary was to foreshadow that Sansa and Jon do not see eye to eye. 

Davos doesn't see any threat yet. However with some political maneuvering from Sansa, LF will expose his intentions and Davos will be the only one who will figure it out (I believe). Jon's main focus is and will always be the threat from the WW. 

My guess the issue that props up is Dany. She may send ravens to the houses she feel she can join with marriage as was her intentions in Season 6. Sansa and LF will caution not to respond (sensing a threat to their plans). Davos would recommend this as strategically their army, their dragons will be needed for the major fight with the WW. Thus, Davos will interchange dialogue with LF to persuade Jon to marry Dany.

I doubt Baelish will wanna stick around now that Jon has been crowned King, as I'm certain he primarily came north to help Sansa because he thought she'd be crowned Queen if Ramsay was taken care of and he'd try to persuade her to marry him. Which didn't work out.

Also I'm very against Jon and Dany marrying, I hate the thought of it and I find it to be very predictable and not something I think will happen. Especially not in the books anyways as Dany is very entitled, stubborn and ignorant and still sees all Starks as usurpers and I don't think anything will change her mind on this, and even if R+L=J comes out in the books Dany won't believe it and will just see Jon as Faegon 2.0 and probably want him dead, as she'll probably have dealt with Faegon by the time she hears of Jon. I do think book Dany is coming to Westeros a villain, or atleast in the eyes of all the characters currently in Westeros, Starks included she will be. When you invade Westeros with Dragons and Dothraki, innocent people are gonna die by the thousands no matter how much she tries to discipline her "khalasar". Which is why I'm highly skeptical that they are gonna successfully make me buy her invading Westeros without her dothraki pillaging towns and killing innocent people in the tv show, it just isn't realistic. They are defying so much logic to try and keep these characters "good guys" for the causal tv audience which I think is a mistake and creates inconsistencies.

Like Tyrion all of a sudden being super loyal to Dany even though he barely knows her, and Dany making Tyrion her hand even though he hasn't done shit right since he's arrived in Meereen to "advise her". This stuff may happen in the books but I think it'll be handled much better and more realistically. Or Book Dany will just execute Tyrion the moment she has him brought before her lol which would be something George would do.

[JonGreen]

17 minutes ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

I doubt Baelish will wanna stick around now that Jon has been crowned King, as I'm certain he primarily came north to help Sansa because he thought she'd be crowned Queen if Ramsay was taken care of and he'd try to persuade her to marry him. Which didn't work out.

Also I'm very against Jon and Dany marrying, I hate the thought of it and I find it to be very predictable and not something I think will happen. Especially not in the books anyways as Dany is very entitled, stubborn and ignorant and still sees all Starks as usurpers and I don't think anything will change her mind on this, and even if R+L=J comes out in the books Dany won't believe it and will just see Jon as Faegon 2.0 and probably want him dead, as she'll probably have dealt with Faegon by the time she hears of Jon. I do think book Dany is coming to Westeros a villain, or atleast in the eyes of all the characters currently in Westeros, Starks included she will be. When you invade Westeros with Dragons and Dothraki, innocent people are gonna die by the thousands no matter how much she tries to discipline her "khalasar". Which is why I'm highly skeptical that they are gonna successfully make me buy her invading Westeros without her dothraki pillaging towns and killing innocent people in the tv show, it just isn't realistic. They are defying so much logic to try and keep these characters "good guys" for the causal tv audience which I think is a mistake and creates inconsistencies.

Like Tyrion all of a sudden being super loyal to Dany even though he barely knows her, and Dany making Tyrion her hand even though he hasn't done shit right since he's arrived in Meereen to "advise her". This stuff may happen in the books but I think it'll be handled much better and more realistically. Or Book Dany will just execute Tyrion the moment she has him brought before her lol which would be something George would do.

Trust me, I don't want to see Game of Thrones become predictable however we're getting towards the home stretch here and whilst I'm indifferent to Jon and Dany marrying (which I'm not saying will happen, I'm saying that the offer will be discussed during Season 7) it's the most logical step towards coming to the final episode where the living will face the dead.

13 episodes to go, 7 or 8 of them in Season 7. It doesn't leave a lot of misdirection from the producers. Either way, I think it's unlikely that Sansa and LF will go back to Kingslanding now. The fight in Kingslanding will be against Cersei and Dany. If Sansa and LF were to go away from Winterfell it will be only to see Dany and seek an alliance that way, which brings Varys and Tyrion into a nice confrontation with Sansa and LF.

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

I doubt Baelish will wanna stick around now that Jon has been crowned King, as I'm certain he primarily came north to help Sansa because he thought she'd be crowned Queen if Ramsay was taken care of and he'd try to persuade her to marry him. Which didn't work out.

The end of Season 6 very clearly telegraphed that next season's Northern plot is going to be Baelish stirring up trouble and trying to pit Sansa against Jon.  Beyond which, they can't go to King's Landing, since he very conspicuously didn't do what he told Cersei he was going to do; let alone bring Sansa there, when Cersei wants her dead.  There's be no reason to go there.

As to the OP, Davos is ultimately a supporting character, so I don't think whatever resolution there is with Littlefinger is going to come down to him.  He's ultimately the main villain of Sansa's storyline, which has been awkwardly combined with Jon's storyline.

[Cron]

On 8/26/2016 at 1:41 AM, JonGreen said:

Like many, I'm thoroughly looking forward to seeing Season 7 of the TV Series however not for the reason most people are interested in.
I'm hanging to see the battle between Davos and Littlefinger. 

Davos, is a straight talker who can sniff out a lie faster than anyone else we've seen on the TV series. His exceptional at understanding the political landscape and the pitfalls if you make the wrong decision. Littlefinger has always been able to manipulate even the smartest of game players. His been leading the entire TV show and is the only person in the kingdom who can say he knows whats going to happen next, cause he masterminded it. 

Davos is Jon's trusted source and Sansa still clings to Littlefinger for his mentorship. Whilst people can discuss the Jon vs Sansa, it will really be between Davos and Littlefinger and if Davos can sniff out Littlefingers plan before it's too late.

My bet is that Davos sniffs out Littlefingers plan in the last episode but before it all comes to a climatic end, the real bad guys begin their assault and the game doesn't even matter anymore. Littlefinger will be one of the WW first victims!
 

Great, fresh food for thought, interesting ruminations.

Yes, there could be natural conflict between Davos and Littlefinger next season, that's for sure.

I would take issue with the claim that "Sansa still clings to Littlefinger for his mentorship," though.  She now clearly knows he is NOT infallible, he screws stuff up himself, including multiple mistakes that could have cost him his life if he hadn't been simply VERY lucky.  Indeed, he would be dead twice over if Sansa hadn't spared his life both times, first with the meeting with the Valemen after Littlefinger killed Lysa, when Littlefinger's fate was completely in Sansa's hand, and again when Sansa, Brienne and Littlefinger met at Mole's Town, and once again Littlefinger's fate was completely in Sansa's hands.  Note also that Sansa flat out says to Jon in Season 6 that only a fool would trust Littlefinger.   Put all this together, and I would not say Sansa is anywhere near clinging to Littlefinger for mentorship anymore.

The other thing I would mention, and indeed I've already touched on it a little, is the fact that Littlefinger DOES screw stuff up, he is not infallible.  Littlefinger gets a lot of credit for being the "master game player," my words, but I don't see that at all.  In my view, he is a screw up who has screwed up multiple times, usuallu b/c of his primary weakness, his obsessive love for Catelyn.

What have all his machinations actually gained him?  Not much.  Cat is dead, and that's Littlefinger's fault.  He set virtually all of these events in Westeros in motion when he conspired with Lysa to kill Jon Arryn, then he told Cat and Ned a lie about the dagger, and that lie led to Cat's death, in an indirect, roundabout way.   Littlefinger screwed up ROYALLY when he gave Sansa to the Boltons, his ignorance in that matter was simply astonishing, and his mistake caused MASSIVE harm to another person he wants, Sansa, AND caused her to greatly distrust and dislike him..

And soon, I strongly predict, we will see the FINAL PROOF that Littlefinger is a colossal screw-up, when all his plans and schemes culminate in his own death.  I have absolute confidence that, in the end, the "master game player," my words, will not be dead b/c of his or her own stupid errors.  In fact, I believe we are now very close to seeing these things catch up to Littlefinger.  Among other ways in which Littlefinger is losing room to maneuver, note that Littlefinger betrayed Ned, Sandor knows it cuz Sandor was there, and Sandor is now headed north to Winterfell.  What happens when Sandor Clegane tells Jon Snow and Sansa Stark what Littlefinger did to Ned Stark????  

Oops.  Jon:  "Davos, fetch me my sword." 

[JonGreen]

17 minutes ago, Cron said:

Great, fresh food for thought, interesting ruminations.

Yes, there could be natural conflict between Davos and Littlefinger next season, that's for sure.

I would take issue with the claim that "Sansa still clings to Littlefinger for his mentorship," though.  She now clearly knows he is NOT infallible, he screws stuff up himself, including multiple mistakes that could have cost him his life if he hadn't been simply VERY lucky.  Indeed, he would be dead twice over if Sansa hadn't spared his life both times, first with the meeting with the Valemen after Littlefinger killed Lysa, when Littlefinger's fate was completely in Sansa's hand, and again when Sansa, Brienne and Littlefinger met at Mole's Town, and once again Littlefinger's fate was completely in Sansa's hands.  Note also that Sansa flat out says to Jon in Season 6 that only a fool would trust Littlefinger.   Put all this together, and I would not say Sansa is anywhere near clinging to Littlefinger for mentorship anymore.

The other thing I would mention, and indeed I've already touched on it a little, is the fact that Littlefinger DOES screw stuff up, he is not infallible.  Littlefinger gets a lot of credit for being the "master game player," my words, but I don't see that at all.  In my view, he is a screw up who has screwed up multiple times, usuallu b/c of his primary weakness, his obsessive love for Catelyn.

What have all his machinations actually gained him?  Not much.  Cat is dead, and that's Littlefinger's fault.  He set virtually all of these events in Westeros in motion when he conspired with Lysa to kill Jon Arryn, then he told Cat and Ned a lie about the dagger, and that lie led to Cat's death, in an indirect, roundabout way.   Littlefinger screwed up ROYALLY when he gave Sansa to the Boltons, his ignorance in that matter was simply astonishing, and his mistake caused MASSIVE harm to another person he wants, Sansa, AND caused her to greatly distrust and dislike him..

And soon, I strongly predict, we will see the FINAL PROOF that Littlefinger is a colossal screw-up, when all his plans and schemes culminate in his own death.  I have absolute confidence that, in the end, the "master game player," my words, will not be dead b/c of his or her own stupid errors.  In fact, I believe we are now very close to seeing these things catch up to Littlefinger.  Among other ways in which Littlefinger is losing room to maneuver, note that Littlefinger betrayed Ned, Sandor knows it cuz Sandor was there, and Sandor is now headed north to Winterfell.  What happens when Sandor Clegane tells Jon Snow and Sansa Stark what Littlefinger did to Ned Stark????  

Oops.  Jon:  "Davos, fetch me my sword." 

Some very compelling thoughts.

For me, I still see Sansa clinging to LF only from the last look in the final episode of Season 6 where she looks at him with slight shock at what just happened. Everything leading up to it, it felt Sansa was in control and the audience felt she has finally turned a corner. However, in order for Jon and the Wildings to win she knew she had to write that letter to LF for help and admit he was right.

I'm actually shocked you think LF has stuffed up so much. I found him hugely successful. LF has more power than he has ever had before, plus the respect that he has desired for so long. Whilst he doesn't have a worthy title other than Lord of Harrenhall, he still controls the Vale and even added his mockingbird to the Vale flag. I'd consider that a success but I see your point. His left himself open to being spotted but I find him still very much in control of all events that are happening.

I'm sure his little birds have notified him of Dany on his way with Tyrion and Varys. I'm incredibly interested to see how he figures out which side to back. He can't go back to Cersei, I doubt he will go to Dany with Tyrion and Varys there, his only choice is to back Jon in which doesn't help his plan to sit the Iron Throne. Regardless, I agree with you. This has to be his last season.

[Cron]

1 hour ago, JonGreen said:

Some very compelling thoughts.

For me, I still see Sansa clinging to LF only from the last look in the final episode of Season 6 where she looks at him with slight shock at what just happened. Everything leading up to it, it felt Sansa was in control and the audience felt she has finally turned a corner. However, in order for Jon and the Wildings to win she knew she had to write that letter to LF for help and admit he was right.

I'm actually shocked you think LF has stuffed up so much. I found him hugely successful. LF has more power than he has ever had before, plus the respect that he has desired for so long. Whilst he doesn't have a worthy title other than Lord of Harrenhall, he still controls the Vale and even added his mockingbird to the Vale flag. I'd consider that a success but I see your point. His left himself open to being spotted but I find him still very much in control of all events that are happening.

I'm sure his little birds have notified him of Dany on his way with Tyrion and Varys. I'm incredibly interested to see how he figures out which side to back. He can't go back to Cersei, I doubt he will go to Dany with Tyrion and Varys there, his only choice is to back Jon in which doesn't help his plan to sit the Iron Throne. Regardless, I agree with you. This has to be his last season.

Cool, great conversation and great thread, hopefully we'll continue to see you around these boards.

[Future Null Infinity]

6 hours ago, The Arthur Smith said:

But why would Sansa want to go to King's Landing? Unless she is persuade by Littlefinger or some circumstances like exile or something, but Sansa doesn't want to return there. She suffered enough and wish to be with her family - Winterfell. If anything, it's inevitable LF is going down in season 7.

Why I think that Sansa will not stay in Winterfell and she will go to King's landing with Baelish? for three reasons :

• Story telling : let's assume that Sansa and Jon killed Baelish () then what next in her story? will she start hanging with Davos and Tormund for the rest of the story, if it is her story it will be a very lazy writing, the character Baelish was always part of Sansa's story, Baelish is alive in the story for a reason
• The "Younger, more beautiful queen" : the trick in the story that confused the viewers, in a way or another it needs a resolution
• the nature of the character and story : her story doesn't contain magical components, what the writers will write about her in Winterfell?  what she will do when Jon attack the WW? watch him from a balcony? no, Winterfell is not her place, she's related to the political intrigue of the story and politics are in KL