Tucu Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 4 minutes ago, hitman47 said: Tyrion is evil He killed his mother and because of that Tywin become a monster. ANd Cersei and Jaime become lovers because is no one to stop them thier mother would and because of that was five war kings. And now Tyrion wants to rape and kill his own sister and he killed his father and make's jokes about that . So how Tyrion is good ? Tyrion and his secret army of bacteria are planning to destroy the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinotaurWarrior Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 31 minutes ago, Woman of War said: I think this is a misunderstanding. Don't care is fundamentally different from not wanting to categorize. Readers do care but there is so much more to the character Tyrion (as to all truly interesting fictional characters who get careful writing from their respective author) than "good" or "bad". I for example, as I have explained three posts above, do not think that filing Tyrion into a moral category here and now is helpful in evaluating his impact on the story so far and in the future. And he is meant to captivate our emotional engagement by not being easy to categorize. We may though consider his story, his development and the impact of this development in the end. Will he be a tragic character, hero, hidden and never recognized hero, will he achieve his goals or fail? What are his goals? He himself? The fight for the greater good? We'll see. Well, why do you not want to categorize, unless you don't care about characters as moral figures? Do you actually care about the question of whether or not Tyrion is good, but are holding back on categorizing him for some other reason? So far as I'm concerned, moral evaluations of characters are pretty much orthogonal to questions you're concerned with, such as "Will he be a tragic character"? I can see why Oedipus and Cleon are both tragic heroes in the context of their stories, while personally evaluating Oedipus as a terrible person and Cleon as a decent guy completely unrelated to that, because Oedipus did something relevant to my personal moral system (murdering a guy in the middle of the road) and Cleon did something I don't care about (refusing to bury a guy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdoTheChoombi Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 5 hours ago, JWittoBeast said: Also, besides the White Walkers there are no villains in ASOIAF. 1 I call bullshit. Roose and Ramsay Bolton are Villains, Joffrey is a villain, Euron Greyjoy makes them all look like saints (Aeron sample episode) You also have Cersei, Littlefinger, The slavers in Dany's storyline, that-guy-who-cut-Myrcella's-nose. If anything, the others aren't villains, but a force of nature, and they'll remain so until we discover their goals go beyond causing the apocalypse for the evulz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy Hill Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 I view Tyrion as a person capable of both good and bad, who becomes a rather villainous figure both because of his own faults and because of the wrongs done to him by others. The only POVs who qualify as good guys are Brienne, Davos, Samwell and Jon Snow IMO (and maybe Ned Stark, barely). All the others have done very questionable things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, Joy Hill said: I view Tyrion as a person capable of both good and bad, who becomes a rather villainous figure both because of his own faults and because of the wrongs done to him by others. The only POVs who qualify as good guys are Brienne, Davos, Samwell and Jon Snow IMO (and maybe Ned Stark, barely). All the others have done very questionable things. What about the Assesination of Ser Puddles by the coward Samwell Tarly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woman of War Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 1 hour ago, MinotaurWarrior said: Well, why do you not want to categorize, unless you don't care about characters as moral figures? Do you actually care about the question of whether or not Tyrion is good, but are holding back on categorizing him for some other reason? So far as I'm concerned, moral evaluations of characters are pretty much orthogonal to questions you're concerned with, such as "Will he be a tragic character"? I can see why Oedipus and Cleon are both tragic heroes in the context of their stories, while personally evaluating Oedipus as a terrible person and Cleon as a decent guy completely unrelated to that, because Oedipus did something relevant to my personal moral system (murdering a guy in the middle of the road) and Cleon did something I don't care about (refusing to bury a guy). I do not want to categorize because I care about characters as individuals, evaluation of characters as in filing them into drawers labeled good and bad does not help me at all. We talk literature and art, art seeks motives and backgrounds, analyzing those is the nucleus of every good story. A democratic legal system though has to categorize, even to quantify. It has to have immoral acts clearly compartementalized into clear legal offenses since only clearly defined crimes can be followed by clearly defined, meaning lawful, sentences. Definition and a quantitative categorization of "how bad a deed is" are therefore necessary. The judge gives a judgement and a sentence based on clear definitions in a democratic system of law. We are no judges here. We speak no sentence, this all is left to the author, he can forgive and redeem, he can condemn the innocent and love the sinners, he has all the power. We are the more or less emphatic analysts of characters, and we are, we are entitled to be, totally subjective lovers or haters. We evaluate a fictional character's deeds, hopefully knowing that our evaluation is shaped by the world we live in, as you wrote about Oedipus and Cleon. But if you wish me to be a bit more direct: I see Tyrion as twisted, tormented and conflicted character, as abused child who turned into a partially abusive adult, like so many victims of sexual and emotional abuse do. He is capable of cruelty, petty acts, arrogance and aggression and he is as well able to be generous, loving, compassionate and warm hearted. Apart from being a visionary, highly intelligent and witty, something that has some part in making him hugely interesting to me nerdy girl. And what won me over is his intense joy of life despite all odds, quenched in ADWD. I guess his story will also be about finding this joy again even if the ending should be sad for him. And Tyrion is Martin's voice in the books. Still I did not answer if Tyrion is a good or a bad guy. Pointless for me at this time of the story since I root for him anyway and we might see in the end. And even then: the way of many good guys and girls to hell will be paved with good intentions in these books..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 I can't stand that little monster. For some reason he's popular within the fandom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediterraneo Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 10 hours ago, Oakhearts head said: Holy shit! You're an excellent troll, JWittoBeast. Good stuff dude. You could keep this up for at least six pages for sure. I don't particularily like the fascist ideology he uses, but he is undoubtfully effective, even with a blaise public like this. I'm definitely in, the effort deserved it. I'd bet a coffee against the six pages, if we lived in the same place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 He didn't rape or mistreat Sansa in anyway when his father forced him to marry her. That earns him a lot of points in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 1 hour ago, sifth said: He didn't rape or mistreat Sansa in anyway when his father forced him to marry her. That earns him a lot of points in my book. He also did Westeros and the world a huge favor when he killed Tywin, and for that alone he's more than okay in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Arthur Smith Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Tyrion was sort of a lesser good but not entirely bad. Yes, he done stuff for the sake of the realm and did his job effectively. He treated some people good like Sansa and Podrick. However, the views he has towards other people actually makes him less of a saint than what people take him for. He blames other people and use their fault to sabotage themselves which actually makes him arrogant and make hypocritical statements. Such as when he stated he doesn't like the idea of marrying Lollys cause she's not attractive, despite the fact he's one. Also, he want Sansa and Shae to see him as a desirable person, but the fact that he sees himself as one doesn't help the cause. By the time of Dance however, he step down to a darker path in which he developed to a more pragmatic and cynical person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shameeka Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 His moral standard, if he has any, is questionable at best. His line of what is right and wrong seems to be very thin and flexible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 So basically another "I don't like this and hate that other people don't share my opinion" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakhearts head Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said: So basically another "I don't like this and hate that other people don't share my opinion" thread. Bingo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abdallah Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 18 hours ago, JWittoBeast said: Yes, he does do a few good things, like how he handled the Gold Cloaks, but at the end of the day he knowingly supported a false regime and he tried to defeat the army of Stannis Baratheon, whom he knows is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. His treatment of Allistar Thorne, simply because Tyrion held a grudge like an angry 9 year old (that was really pathetic, TBH) and the fact he supported the Wildling tribes of the Vale to pillage innocent unarmed villagers shows he's actually a total asshat. All Lannisters must die. Massacre the Lannisters. I will laugh when we see a Red Wedding esque scenario where an army (doesn't really matter who) goes throughout Casterly Rock and Lannisport and kills all the Lannister cousins. 1st. He was loyal to his blood, like Stannis was loyal to Robert in his rebellion. 2nd. Allistar Thorne is a jerk, no one blames him. 3rd. Actually arming the hill tribes was pretty smart. He hated the vale etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor the Articulate Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 20 hours ago, JWittoBeast said: he knowingly supported a false regime and he tried to defeat the army of Stannis Baratheon, whom he knows is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Something tells me this is your biggest grievance with him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryk Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 He's a good guy who's done some bad things. Considering what his family is like, he turned out pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 On 27/08/2016 at 0:56 PM, JWittoBeast said: Yes, he does do a few good things, like how he handled the Gold Cloaks, but at the end of the day he knowingly supported a false regime and he tried to defeat the army of Stannis Baratheon, whom he knows is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Hahahahahahahaha People who think that there is a "rightful" ruler in this bloody mess of a civil war are so adorable. Do you not realize that it's all just a showcase to display the inherent problems in a hereditary monarchy? To choose leaders depending on who slid out of who's private parts in what order after one particular person squirted their seed up there? Of course Tyrion is not what we'd call a "good guy" in our modern society. Compared to us Westeros is a horde of uncivilized savages. By the standards of his time Tyrion does do several things are nice. For instance, he was, technically, in the right to demand sex from Sansa, but he didn't and he even prevented the beddign ceremony from happening. That was unusually decent for the society he grew up in.He at several point shows a soft spot for the weak and disenfranchised. Yet on the other hand he also frequently stoops down to clandestine cloak and dagger method to further his designs, ordering the killing or maiming of, often, innocent people in the process. So imho, I can't say he's a good person, but he is not evil on the same level as other characters in the series and I certainly won't fault him for defending the lives of a good chunk of his family, along with those of half a million innocent citizens, against some crazed rebel leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakhearts head Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Renly had the right idea. Dude just said "fuck feudalism" and made himself King because he thought he was the best for the job. That's way more honorable than "I should be King because my brother was!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion_Mackey Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 12 hours ago, sifth said: He didn't rape or mistreat Sansa in anyway when his father forced him to marry her. That earns him a lot of points in my book. Tyrion wasn't forced to marry her: "If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys . . ." Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. "I'd sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats." Even if he was, I don't think you should get special points for having the basic decency not to rape someone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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