Do people ACTUALLY think Tyrion is a good guy?

[Victarion_Mackey]

5 minutes ago, Oakhearts head said:

Renly had the right idea. Dude just said "fuck feudalism" and made himself King because he thought he was the best for the job. That's way more honorable than "I should be King because my brother was!"

Sounds like a recipe for permanent civil war to me. What about all the other guys who think they're best for the job?

[Orphalesion]

3 minutes ago, Victarion_Mackey said:

Even if he was, I don't think you should get special points for having the basic decency not to rape someone

From the point of view of our modern western society, of course not. From a modern point of view it was already a huge crime to force Sansa into marriage to begin with.

From the point of view of a primitive, very patriarchal society like Westeros, it was kind of him not to force Sansa to bed him. I don't think it earns him a gold medal, but you know that plenty of other male characters in the books would not have cared whether their wife wishes to have sex with them. 

1 minute ago, Victarion_Mackey said:

Sounds like a recipe for permanent civil war to me. What about all the other guys who think they're best for the job?

Yeop, pretty much. Only because Renly had a charming smile, smelled nice and surrounded himself with heraldry relating to spring and flowers doesn't mean he was any better than his nut job of  a brother. 

Just like Stannis he was prepared to bring war and suffering upon the realm because he thought he "deserved" the throne.

[Runaway Penguin]

Renly had nothing against feudalism, he just wanted be on the top of the feudal heap because he was throwing better parties than his bigger brother.

 

Anyway, to Tyrion... He is tring to do his best to mitigate rule of his cruel nephew, he is often callous and careless - by our modern eyes, but not more so than other "good" protagonists in the series. He is also facing quite serious challenges, both due to his upbringing, due to his physical handicap and due to gross injustice done to him after his life success as administrator.

He is not shining hero on a bright horse, however he is not inherently evil - not even neutral I would say. You often find good guys fighting on the wrong side and bad guys on the good side.

 

 

[sifth]

On 8/28/2016 at 8:04 AM, Victarion_Mackey said:

Tyrion wasn't forced to marry her:

"If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys . . ."

Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. "I'd sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats."

Even if he was, I don't think you should get special points for having the basic decency not to rape someone

 

Not even when his father, the hand of the king and the most powerful lord in the country all, but ordered him to get a baby inside of her.

 

Also if Tyrion did not not marry her, they would just force Lancel or some other minor Lannister on her. They said as much in the meeting. So stop acting like Sansa wasn't screwed no matter how you look at it. I'd like to see how many other Lannisters would have defied the mighty Tywin, and not rape Sansa.

 

Also have you read this series, have you seen how often women are treated like crap in this world.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

10 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

Renly had the right idea. Dude just said "fuck feudalism" and made himself King because he thought he was the best for the job. That's way more honorable than "I should be King because my brother was!"

It isn't so. Renly's view was actually very feudal, where the power resides with mighty noble houses, instead of the Crown. "Look across the fields, brother. Can you see those banners? ... Tyrell swords will make me king. Rowan and Tarly and Caron will make me king, with axe and mace and warhammer. Tarth arrows and Penrose lances, Fossoway, Cuy, Mullendore, Estermont, Selmy, Hightower, Oakheart, Crane, Caswell, Blackbar, Morrigen, Beesbury, Shermer, Dunn, Footly... even House Florent, your own wife's brothers and uncles, they will make me king". In contrast with Stannis' more absolutist model (Renly was king because he had all those swords vs. all those swords should belong to Stannis, because Stannis was king).

10 hours ago, Victarion_Mackey said:

Sounds like a recipe for permanent civil war to me. What about all the other guys who think they're best for the job?

First, notice that that civil war was actually started by a royal brat who firmly believed in his birthright (while Lord Stark discovered that it wasn't so), and was well and truly going on before Renly joined the fun. Paradoxically, adherence to the succession laws was the reason the war started.

And second, yes, whenever there's a contested succession (or a succession that might be contested by some opportunist), some powerful prince (no matter that a few steps behind in the succession order) could step in and try to claim the throne to himself. That's not Renly's fault, that's not Renly's invention, that is an inherent, fundamental flaw in the system. Maegor jumped the queue, Aegon II did, too, Blackfyre tried and failed, Robert Baratheon succeeded, and that's counting only the Iron Throne, and not minor kingdoms.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

Tyrion is definitely one the most popular characters of the series, but it doesn't mean that he is good or bad. Most of the characters in ASOIAF are in the grey zone, doing good and bad thing for different reasons. I guess there are only few characters who can be considered bad, who enjoy people suffering, like ramsay, Joffrey or the Mountain. Yet plenty of readers try to label characters as good ones and bad ones.

Tyrion is clever, witty and observant. One can't help but sympatize him because he was never love by his father and sister and blamed for his mother's death. So many readers give him benefit of doubt. But at the same time he is arrogant, somewhat misogenic (to say least) and likes to make other people look stupid. He did both good and bad things, and he is really complicated.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 27.08.2016 at 5:25 PM, MinotaurWarrior said:

You think he's a moral exemplary character? Or a "good guy" in some other sense? If the latter, then I think this was just semantics, and a problem with the OP using a phrase with multiple meanings. If you actually think he's a morally good guy, then I'm curious about your reasoning.

Basically, as I see him, the good outweighs the bad. Yes, flawed, yes, very imperfect, but still on the right side of the border.

I, in exchange, wonder where the "nobody thinks Tyrion is a good guy" would come from.

[OuttaOldtown]

16 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Basically, as I see him, the good outweighs the bad. Yes, flawed, yes, very imperfect, but still on the right side of the border.

I, in exchange, wonder where the "nobody thinks Tyrion is a good guy" would come from.

Exactly, I know one person it doesn't come from:

"Much as I admire Tolkien, and I do admire Tolkien — he’s been a huge influence on me, and his Lord of the Rings is the mountain that leans over every other fantasy written since and shaped all of modern fantasy — there are things about it, the whole concept of the Dark Lord, and good guys battling bad guys, Good versus Evil, while brilliantly handled in Tolkien, in the hands of many Tolkien successors, it has become kind of a cartoon. We don’t need any more Dark Lords, we don’t need any more, ‘Here are the good guys, they’re in white, there are the bad guys, they’re in black. And also, they’re really ugly, the bad guys.

It is certainly a genuine, legitimate topic as the core of fantasy, but I think the battle between Good and Evil is waged within the individual human hearts. We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, that’s the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as I’ve said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what I’m aiming at."

 

[Maxxine]

I wouldn't consider Tyrion a good guy or a bad guy, especially not as bad as the OP makes him out to be. He's probably the greyest character in the series. If forced to choose one he's closer to good guy than bad because I do believe overall he has good intentions. Tbh, I think he has done more stupid things, especially considering how smart he is, than "bad" things. And I don't think the OP did a good job pointing out things that really makes him bad. In context, he gave the Mountain Clans weapons because had he not made a deal with him they would have killed him. Is that really bad. Yes, he had the second motive of revenge, but the main motive was I need to live. In context, he was defending a city against an invasion, an invasion that if he had worked would've likely resulted in his and his family's deaths. Is that really bad. The Alliser Thorne thing was petty, but was it really bad. OP would've been better served pointing to killing the singer that had befriended Shae or even killing Tywin.

[Lurid Jester]

17 minutes ago, Maxxine said:

The Alliser Thorne thing was petty, but was it really bad.

Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing in Tyrion's place.

 

[Lurid Jester]

@OuttaOldtown that quote about Tolkien's influence and the overuse of the whole Darklord/evil army trope really makes me suspicious of the Others and their motivations. 

We assume they're the "bad guys", but what if they're not?  

As for Tyrion, I like to categorize characters by whether I'd want to be their prisoner or not.  Regardless of the why. Tyrion?  I feel like I'd be treated fairly.  

[OuttaOldtown]

20 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

@OuttaOldtown that quote about Tolkien's influence and the overuse of the whole Darklord/evil army trope really makes me suspicious of the Others and their motivations. 

We assume they're the "bad guys", but what if they're not?  

As for Tyrion, I like to categorize characters by whether is want to be their prisoner or not.  Regardless of the why. Tyrion?  I feel like I'd be treated fairly.  

I feel it's a story about a great imbalance, not one which follows the typical fantasy trope of 'good conquors evil to save the world'. Conquering can be the very evil that causes death and destruction, those with good intentions can cause more harm than good. So yeah, I agree that readers should keep an open mind about the Others..

[Maxxine]

1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

Can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing in Tyrion's place.

 

Lol. The only reason I fault him is because of of the promise he made Mormont before leaving and because he seems to have, idk, a feeling the last time he at the top of Wall that maybe the Wall is there for than grumpkins and snarks.

[Lurid Jester]

@Maxxine but didn't he already fulfill the promise of sending more men to the wall?  I may be remembering thing wrong, but I seem to recall something about Tyrion saying they had already sent men to the wall and here was Thorne asking for more.  

May need to reread. 

[hitman47]

And Tyrion when his was a baby was having handjob from his sister in front of his brother and guest's

[kimim]

On 8/28/2016 at 9:12 AM, sifth said:

 

Not even when his father, the hand of the king and the most powerful lord in the country all, but ordered him to get a baby inside of her.

 

Also if Tyrion did not not marry her, they would just force Lancel or some other minor Lannister on her. They said as much in the meeting. So stop acting like Sansa wasn't screwed no matter how you look at it. I'd like to see how many other Lannister would have defied the might Tywin, and not rape Sansa.

 

Also have you read this series, have you seen how often women are treated like crap in this world.

This. No other Lannister would have defied Tywin on Sansa. In this world, you should give points to men who refuse to rape their wives or anyone else, as "wife rape," is just not a concept for them.

[Lurid Jester]

10 minutes ago, hitman47 said:

...

Thank you for yet another moment of random, only vaguely relevant, text. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

The OP's argument marginalizes the good things Tyrion has done and focuses on the bad. If you can call them bad. I was surprised that there was no mention of the of poor Allar Deem and Symon Silver Tongue, and Tyrion's ruthless death sentence.

"I mean so what, he rescued Sansa, and treated her with dignity and respect, he didn't fight for Stannis! The true and rightful heir of the man who took his crown with rebellion." (That's a parody)

It would seem the only true right in westeros is the right of conquest. Just about every claim in Westeros was stolen from someone else, right back to the Children of the Forrest.

[Maxxine]

3 hours ago, Lurid Jester said:

@Maxxine but didn't he already fulfill the promise of sending more men to the wall?  I may be remembering thing wrong, but I seem to recall something about Tyrion saying they had already sent men to the wall and here was Thorne asking for more.  

May need to reread. 

Yes he did. He sent men (not sure how many) with Slynt. I just meant with the promise he made Mormont & that feeling he got I hope he would take Thorne more seriously. Not bad just petty 

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 29/08/2016 at 0:04 AM, Victarion_Mackey said:

Tyrion wasn't forced to marry her:

"If you will not have the Stark girl, I shall find you another wife. Somewhere in the realm there is doubtless some little lordling who'd gladly part with a daughter to win the friendship of Casterly Rock. Lady Tanda has offered Lollys . . ."

Tyrion gave a shudder of dismay. "I'd sooner cut it off and feed it to the goats."

Even if he was, I don't think you should get special points for having the basic decency not to rape someone

If you read through that whole exchange, Tywin belittles Tyrion and compares him to a child, while pushing the idea that marrying Sansa is the best thing he can hope for, as well as the best option for her wellbeing. Tyrion may not have married Sansa at swordpoint, but he wasn't given much of a choice either.