Future of Sansa

[teej6]

32 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

@teej6 We disagree then. I think the major theme of the books is that the worth of a person is not in their appearance, or their speech, or even their thoughts (Ned's thoughts are beautiful). I'll say it again - you can disregard a person's thoughts. Only actions count.

Aside from that, I've just noticed this is a 'future of sansa' thread, and I have a question of my own. It really bugs me that Sansa dreams of Illyn Payne so much. Is he in her future, as well as her past? He's back in the story, but what could he possibly do?

I disagree. To me GRRM uses the POV chapters to fully flesh out his main characters. Say for example, Jamie's actions in a AGOT make him a despicable individual. But through his thoughts in his POV chapters, GRRM gives more depth to this character, giving the character motives or some sort of internal justification for his evil acts. Jamie's POV chapters has changed the initial perception of the character so much so that some readers even see him as a hero of sorts. 

Illyn Payne represents Sansa's fears and that is why he's in her thoughts. In AGOT, she thinks of him coming to chop of her head. It's funny the character terrified Sansa log before he chopped of Ned's head. If he's to die at Stark hands, Arya will probably be the one to do the act as he's on her death list. 

 

[Springwatch]

17 minutes ago, teej6 said:

I disagree. To me GRRM uses the POV chapters to fully flesh out his main characters. Say for example, Jamie's actions in a AGOT make him a despicable individual. But through his thoughts in his POV chapters, GRRM gives more depth to this character, giving the character motives or some sort of internal justification for his evil acts. Jamie's POV chapters has changed the initial perception of the character so much so that some readers even see him as a hero of sorts. 

What you say is true, but it pulls me in the opposite direction. However, yours is a fair point of view and I won't press you further.

17 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Illyn Payne represents Sansa's fears and that is why he's in her thoughts. In AGOT, she thinks of him coming to chop of her head. It's funny the character terrified Sansa log before he chopped of Ned's head. If he's to die at Stark hands, Arya will probably be the one to do the act as he's on her death list. 

 

I can't make him out at all. He hasn't actually done anything 'wrong' so far - he executed Ned on Joffrey's orders. Sansa managed to face up to Joffrey many times without getting the horrors. Is she judging by appearances? I don't think so - initially she loved the beautiful Lannisters and feared the disfigured Hound - she's sort of learned that lesson.

I quite like the idea he's some kind of mental bugbear she needs to get over to stop her fears paralysing her. 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

3 hours ago, teej6 said:

I never said Sansa was dumb. I said she isn't intelligent enough as of now in the books to see the full extend of LF's schemes and manipulations. And if I recall, I stated up thread that she figures out Lyn Corbray's part in LF's scheme but that still does not qualify her to take on LF at his own game. And all the stuff about Sansa exploiting LF's blindspots is fanfic at this point, nothing in the books indicate this. LF does have his blindspots but Sansa hasn't fully recognized it let alone begun exploiting it in the books. You sure your not confusing the fanfic they showed in the show for book information?

The bolded part is completely your assumption and nothing in the text indicate this. And btw, I'm not a dude

Well, there's this....  

Quote

The tourney, the prizes, the winged knights, it had all be her own notion.  Lord Robert's mother had filled him full of fears, but he always took courage from the tales she read him of SEr Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight of legend, founder of his line.  Why not surround him with Winged Knights?  She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave.  And no sooner did she tell Petyr her idea than he went out and made it happen.  He will want to be there to greet Ser Harrold.  

Keep him safe and make him brave.  If she's all on board with Petyr's plan or oblivious to it, the Petyr's own hired swords are already around him and his safety or intended lack of safety is not an issue.  His own Kingsguard would be determined by the tournament winners invited from across the Vale, not people in Petyr's debt or pay.   

Apologies for the "dude" part. In real life, I use the word indiscriminately between genders.  Never intended any offense.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I can't make him out at all. He hasn't actually done anything 'wrong' so far - he executed Ned on Joffrey's orders. Sansa managed to face up to Joffrey many times without getting the horrors. Is she judging by appearances? I don't think so - initially she loved the beautiful Lannisters and feared the disfigured Hound - she's sort of learned that lesson.

I quite like the idea he's some kind of mental bugbear she needs to get over to stop her fears paralysing her.

That's a good point that we haven't seen him really do anything "wrong."  I mean, Lady had a pretty negative reaction to him, so I wouldn't say he's a "good" guy.  He's creepy, but maybe not "evil."  Just dutiful and cold, as moral as the person giving him orders.  

[teej6]

7 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Well, there's this....  

Keep him safe and make him brave.  If she's all on board with Petyr's plan or oblivious to it, the Petyr's own hired swords are already around him and his safety or intended lack of safety is not an issue.  His own Kingsguard would be determined by the tournament winners invited from across the Vale, not people in Petyr's debt or pay.   

Apologies for the "dude" part. In real life, I use the word indiscriminately between genders.  Never intended any offense.

If you are quoting from TWOW chapter please put it under spoiler quotes so the text is hidden. Not everyone wants to be spoiled with information from TWOW before the entire book is published. Please take a look at the forum's policy on this. Also, there is a separate section on the forum to discuss TWOW chapters. 

As to your point, I still disagree that Sansa is in any meaningful way manipulating LF. Peter didn't have many hired swords in the Vale.  

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

6 minutes ago, teej6 said:

 

 I still disagree that Sansa is in any meaningful way manipulating LF. Peter didn't have many hired swords in the Vale.  

 

So, do you disagree that Sansa is playing LF in the Alayne chapter

Spoiler

When she pretends to not know how to flirt.  

Because that was pretty glaring to me. I actually snorted out loud on my first read of it! she plays him perfectly here, being everything he wants her to be, and she is doing that for a reason. She's manipulating his opinion of her.  and later

Spoiler

When she notes that she suggested the Tourney and he made it happen, she's noting how he has been quick to fulfil her desire. And then, that Lemon cake. Which again she notes is for her. She's pretty smug about that too. 

These may seem like small things, but they tell a story. One of Sansa being self aware, and using his weakness for her own gain. She's learnt his lesson about knowing how to move a man, and is using it against him. Just because she doesn't quite know what the end game will be doesn't mean she isn't playing. After all that is just what LF does. he plays everyone and waits to see where the pieces fall, before deciding his end moves.   She's using his tricks, this is what learning entails. 

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Lessons Sansa has learnt.

That ruling with the love of your people is more effective than ruling through fear.- teacher, inadvertently- Cersei Lannister.

That keeping your head down and living is preferable to shooting your mouth off and being killed. Teacher- The Hound.

That a kind action can reap rewards. Teacher - Dontos.

That her claim will always be a powerful temptation to others. Teacher- erm pretty much everyone. lol. 

That septa Mordane was full of shit. - Self taught.

That tears are not a Ladies only weapon, but to be really, really, bloody careful about how you employ that one. - Teacher Cersei Lannister, though again the lesson didn't get taught in preciously the manor she intended.

Lies and Arbour Gold. The art of flattery & manipulation. Teacher- Lord Baelish.

The art of disguise & method acting. Teacher- Lord Baelish & Lady Lysa Arryn. 

Learn a man's weakness and you know how to move him. Teacher - Peytr Baelish.

That LF is not infallible and doesn't know everything. Teacher - Ser Lyn Corbrey.

That the songs are BS and beautiful does not equal good. Teacher - Joffrey Baratheon.

That she wants to be loved for herself. Teacher - Tyrion Lannister. 

That being good doesn't guarantee victory. Teacher - Ned Stark.

Clean hands. Teacher - Little Finger.

That empowerment is a better way to raise a son in this world than cosseting him. Teacher - Catelyn Stark. 

That it is love which inspires true Loyalty. Teacher - Ned Stark.

  

I may think of more later on, and this list is not in order of time when learnt, but I just wanted to show how much she has learnt on her journey. She's come a long long way from the 11 year old with her head in the clouds we met in AGOT. 

[Elisabetta Duò]

The first thing I see in her future is be the one behind Littlefinger's demise. I think he's the "savage Giant" Sansa will slain, as in the prophecy (I think Sansa killing Sweetrobin's giant-doll when he attacked the snow castle built to represent Winterfell is a way of foreshadowing future events): reasons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExQRM2qeEys

I guess in the show

Spoiler

she will pretend to get along with LF as long as she needs him and she will be somehow tempted by his offer but she won't betray Jon. Even in the unlikely case I saw her marry LF on the show, I would think she has an hidden agenda; her attitude towards LF  will likely cause some arguments between Sansa and Jon, because she won't be very straightforward and he's not truly the master of sublety so he won't get her real intentions and might be led to believe she would be able to betray him...but of course in the end she won't.

In the books, it's more difficult to understand how it all will play out, but I still keep that she will cause LF's demise one way or another.

 

[Morgana Lannister]

11 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Lessons Sansa has learnt.

That ruling with the love of your people is more effective than ruling through fear.- teacher, inadvertently- Cersei Lannister.

That keeping your head down and living is preferable to shooting your mouth off and being killed. Teacher- The Hound.

That a kind action can reap rewards. Teacher - Dontos.

That her claim will always be a powerful temptation to others. Teacher- erm pretty much everyone. lol. 

That septa Mordane was full of shit. - Self taught.

That tears are not a Ladies only weapon, but to be really, really, bloody careful about how you employ that one. - Teacher Cersei Lannister, though again the lesson didn't get taught in preciously the manor she intended.

Lies and Arbour Gold. The art of flattery & manipulation. Teacher- Lord Baelish.

The art of disguise & method acting. Teacher- Lord Baelish & Lady Lysa Arryn. 

Learn a man's weakness and you know how to move him. Teacher - Peytr Baelish.

That LF is not infallible and doesn't know everything. Teacher - Ser Lyn Corbrey.

That the songs are BS and beautiful does not equal good. Teacher - Joffrey Baratheon.

That she wants to be loved for herself. Teacher - Tyrion Lannister. 

That being good doesn't guarantee victory. Teacher - Ned Stark.

Clean hands. Teacher - Little Finger.

That empowerment is a better way to raise a son in this world than cosseting him. Teacher - Catelyn Stark. 

That it is love which inspires true Loyalty. Teacher - Ned Stark.

  

I may think of more later on, and this list is not in order of time when learnt, but I just wanted to show how much she has learnt on her journey. She's come a long long way from the 11 year old with her head in the clouds we met in AGOT. 

love this! so true