Sansa's Marital Status

[ShadowCat Rivers]

4 minutes ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

[...] I think LF plans for Tyrion to be killed before wedding Sansa to Harry, given what he has said on the subject. [...]

Yes, and I think this kind of proves that there's no "Tysha solution" for Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage.

[sweetsunray]

On 29-8-2016 at 1:31 PM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Tyrion said several times that he and Tysha were married by a drunk septon.

That septon... might that be the septon at the Wall? He's also always in his cups.

ETA: I don't think it would have been Thoros of Myr. Even though Tyrion was young and got drunk Thoros is a very recognizable character with his red robes. So, I'm thinking of a real septon, the one at the Wall Septon Cellador. Seems just like Tywin to arrange for the septon in question to be sent to the Wall and do his septon duties there.

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Elisabetta Duò said:

No you are wrong on this.

<snipped out stuff that isn't relevant>

Is Tyrion's marriage with Tysha able to change this conclusion?

No, because that marriage was likely null to begin with and in any case either Tywin Lannister is a fool or he had it annulled.

Tyrion and Tysha were able to marry because they found a drunk septon wishing to marry them in exhange for a bribe. They had pigs as witnesses. When the septon sobered up, he run to Tywin and confessed the truth.

So the marriage:

- was likely null since the start (the septon was mentally unable to celebrate because he was drunk, they had pigs as witnesses instead of human beings, so they were lacking witnesses - marriages usually require witnesses and if it wasn't so, they wouldn't bring in the pigs to 'fake' witnesses) and the Septon accepted a bribe to celebrate the irregular marriage. Now it's hard to say this could be considered binding under any law.

- even if we supposed it wasn't null it was certainly annulled, unless we assume that Tywin Lannister was an idiot and I would call him many things BUT an idiot. The annullment doesn't require both parties to be present, so they could ask for it in Tysha's absence.

Tywin would never be careless with something potentially endangering his legacy, he would make sure to have the marriage annulled after she sent Tysha away, otherwise it would be a liablilty in too many ways:

- what if she got pregnant after he sent her away, for example? .. if she was still technically married to Tyrion, that would be a huge problem because the child wouldn't be a bastard, but a heir;

- he wanted to be free to use Tyrion as a marriage-weapon, as his other childs; after the Tysha affair, he offered Tyrion as Lysa Tully's husband.. he wouldn't do that without taking care of the previous marriage, for otherwise the new marriage would be annullable if anyone found out about Tysha and the Lannister's claim over the Vale would precarious and subject to possible blackmail; 

- he had his father Tytos and the lowborn mistress on the forefront of his head so he would act accordingly.

When the Septon run to Tywin, he confessed about being drunk, about the bribe, about the whole thing: Tywin then organized that whole 'trap' with Jamie telling Tyrion that Tysha was a whore who never loved him, specifically with the intent of having the marriage annulled without Tyrion objecting; therefore, there is no reason to suppose that he didn't follow through: Tywin would drag Tyrion along to the High Septon and make Tyrion ask for the annullment / ask for it at Tyrion's presence without him opposing him. He would probably say it needed to be annulled because Tysha was a prostitute who made the vows under false pretenses and/or that the Septon was drunk and/or that there were no witnesses, only pigs. Chances that the High Septon refused the annulment are like 0, because the marriage was clearly 'problematic' (pigs as witnesses? drunk septon? a vanished prostitute marrying a Lannister?) and because Tywin was the second most powerful man in Westeros. 

Further evidence is that Tyrion always refers to his marriage as a past event.. he always says that he was married, that Tysha was his wife, even when he's alone with Tywin, even in his own mind; granted how much he idealized Tysha, if there was a chance that the marriage was still valid (he is well-read and high born, he knows how marriages work in Westeros), he would definitely still call her his wife (he would say something like 'I am married, though she's lost to me'), especially in front of Tywin...and he would never disrespect Tysha with bigamy marrying Sansa. Tywin himself wouldn't offer Tyrion to Lysa Tully (or Sansa) if has didn't have the previous marriage annulled, because the consequent allegiance would be precarious.

With all respect, Elisabetta, no I'm not wrong. You may disagree with me, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Please, a separate question before any other discussion. Anything about the show should not be posted in these pages. It is not only meaningless for discussion of the books, but it is disrespectful to other posters to expose them to spoilers from the show if they don't want to know this information before Martin includes it, or does not include it, in the books. This is true especially now that the show is going ahead of the source material. There are strict rules on this on this site, violations of which can get you banned, and there are also separate forums here that, if you want to discuss the nonsense that is the show, (sorry, my bias) you have the opportunity to do so. 

But to your points. We have nothing to show a wedding preformed by a septon, and consummated after can be set aside. This is just speculation on the part of posters who wish it so.

We do know it takes the High Septon, or a Council of Faith, to set aside, or annul, a marriage. We know we need a testimony of a participant that the wedding was not consummated. Tyrion did not do so. Tysha did not do so. I've stated my reasons for believing that already.

What we have then, is a group of posters who want to create a third way for annulment. Either the septon was too drunk (he wasn't drunk enough he didn't remember it) or Tywin has a special kind of religious justice available to him as the Hand. Yet, we see King Aegon V Targaryen could not have the marriage of his son and daughter set aside in the almost identical situation (under age, no parental consent, already consummated.)

So, instead we have the embracing of the super powers of Tywin Lannister to get things done "quietly" and in a way that seems in opposition to the practice of the Faith.

I don't buy it. Tywin has no interest in his "legacy" through Tyrion. He wishes Tyrion was never born. His response is all about his rights as of father and the violation of his family name for Tyrion to marry a commoner. His response isn't to quietly pull imaginary strings. His response is to destroy the couple through an organized gang rape. To convince his son, through the use of his brother's lie that Tywin makes up, that Tysha was a whore who never loved him.

Tywin's method of operation is that the rules don't apply to him. He doesn't care if his supposed annulment story is real and legal - which, again, would run counter to all the rules of the Faith we know - all he cares about is that the marriage is destroyed, his son and wife are punished, and that no one laughs at House Lannister for Tyrion's marriage to a commoner. The first two we know how he accomplished, but the third he doesn't get by going to the High Septon or Council of Faith. He gets it by shutting up his son and telling him the marriage never really existed. We know it did exist. We know it was legal. We know if Tysha is still alive, it is still legal barring the revelation of a new path to annulment. 

Which means the marriage to Sansa would be considered a bigamous one, and it would be invalid. I would again draw your attention to the evidence Littlefinger is investigating Tyrion's story, and his twisted telling of it to Sansa. This story hasn't reached it's conclusion in the distant background of Martin's tale. It is playing on in its effects through the very last parts of Tyrion's arc. That it also effects what will happen with Sansa, I have little doubt. The simple fact Tyrion feels the need to tell Sansa of his marriage to Tysha on their wedding night should be a clue to readers of its importance. On the same night Tyrion pledges to Sansa not to force her consummation of their wedding.

[Byfort of Corfe]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

 

So, instead we have the embracing of the super powers of Tywin Lannister to get things done "quietly" and in a way that seems in opposition to the practice of the Faith.

 

If you aren't willing to "buy" a direct quote from the book, a direct quote from what GRRM wrote about Tyrion's marriage to Tysha and it's dissolution, that Tywin had the marriage annulled, by Septons, then there is nothing left to discuss.  You have simply made your mind up on this issue and quotes that conflict with that belief no longer matter to you or the discussion.  In my view, given a theory and what GRRM actually wrote, I'll go with GRRM

[ShadowCat Rivers]

There's nothing "quiet" about the matter of Tyrion and Tysha's marriage. Everyone who matters knows about it. If there was ground, because of it, to question the legitimacy of the subsequent Tyrion's marriage it would have been done already - in universe, I mean.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

51 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

If you aren't willing to "buy" a direct quote from the book, a direct quote from what GRRM wrote about Tyrion's marriage to Tysha and it's dissolution, that Tywin had the marriage annulled, by Septons, then there is nothing left to discuss.  You have simply made your mind up on this issue and quotes that conflict with that belief no longer matter to you or the discussion.  In my view, given a theory and what GRRM actually wrote, I'll go with GRRM

Except there are plenty of times where GRRM directly writes something that turns out to not say what it seems to be saying.

The most obvious example is that of Jon Snow. GRRM wrote Tyrion saying directly to Jon Snow, "You're Ned Stark's bastard." He wrote the same of many other characters who speak of, or think of, Jon Snow as "Ned's bastard" or "your bastard". Yet, there are also many hints and clues that the direct quotes are not entirely what they seem to be on the surface.

With regard to Tyrion's marriage to Tysha, we only have Tywin's comment (which additionally is hearsay since Tyrion most likely doesn't have first-hand knowledge himself and is only repeating what he was told). Working against Tywin's statement is that we know what it takes to annul a marriage: consent of the High Septon or a Council of the Faith, provided at least one of the two parties in the marriage presents their case. There's no indication, hints or clues of this happening, so taking Tywin's comment with a grain of salt seems perfectly rational to me.

 

[Woman of War]

On 29. August 2016 at 5:27 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I think LF does tell Sansa on the Merling King that Tyrion was married before and that he gave his wife over to his guardsmen.  That's probably significant if it Tywin's goal was to make the whole thing go away.  Since it involved so many Lannister guardsmen, the incident had to be the talk of the town.  If she were a crofter's daughter, her deceased father was a tenant working on Tywin's land.  I can't help but wonder if Sandor would know about Tysha incident since that would have put him at about 16 at the time and probably privy to the Lannister inner circle.  It's never said why he hates Tyrion so much, but if he were fully aware that Tysha was no whore and when he finds out he married Sansa (who would have been the same age as Tysha) would explain his very visceral reaction to hearing the news.  

 

It s even possible that Sandor was among the many guardsmen. By now he despises himself for it and hates Tyrion for it seeing him as cause of the horrible deed he, Sandor, had a part in. Or Sandor was ordered to do away with Tysha as he did with Mycah, an awful thing again, and he hates Tyrion for having been the source of everything.

I guess in a situation like that thirteen year old Tyrion would hardly remember the faces of the rapists. There was his father and the alleged betrayal by Tysha.

Actually this would be an elegant plot turn from the author's side which explains the irrational and unilateral hatred from Sandor  towards Tyrion and the fate of Tysha at the same time. Speculation of course but answering two open plot points at the same time.

And this means that Sandor might know for certain whether Tysha is dead.

[Protagoras]

I am not sure if Sansas marriage status will be relevant at all. She is after all one of the persons most sought after by the crown and her husband is a known king and kinslayer.

The Tyrion situation feels like a situation that will be resolved by lots of violence rather than a annulment. If Sansa and Tyrion respectively has access to either armies themselves or an alliance with people who do, only one of those factions need to win in order to end this so called marriage, since neither party seems to want it. You can call it "annulled due to nonconsumation" or you can call it "annulled due to that I like my head still attached to my body". In the end - its not really going to matter.

When it comes to Harry, I don´t think that plan will happen. It has been presented too early to the readers and Sansa has already have marriage in her arc. I think GRRM is planning something else. I am very uncertain on exactly what "something else" is (one of the reasons that this arc, together with what will happen in the Citadel are two of the most exciting ones), but I don´t think this will be played straight.

 

[Woman of War]

Quote

I am not sure if Sansas marriage status will be relevant at all.

Agree 

If Martin wants Sansa and Tyrion married they could simply decide to marry again, for whatever reason Martin chooses - for friendship, love or for political reasons.

And even if they were married and this could or should not be annulled they would hardly live together against their will. Tyrion would not chain Sansa to the wall of CR and Sansa would not feed Tyrion love potion. They could simply wave goodbye in friendship and ride off into opposite directions. Or they could decide for a marriage starting out like Ned's and Cat's.

Quote

 

[Protagoras]

21 minutes ago, Woman of War said:

Agree 

If Martin wants Sansa and Tyrion married they could simply decide to marry again, for whatever reason Martin chooses - for friendship, love or for political reasons.

And even if they were married and this could or should not be annulled they would hardly live together against their will. Tyrion would not chain Sansa to the wall of CR and Sansa would not feed Tyrion love potion. They could simply wave goodbye in friendship and ride off into opposite directions. Or they could decide for a marriage starting out like Ned's and Cat's.

Hmm, I very much doubt that marriage is going to last (nor be renewed). My point was that I am questioning its value during sansas arc in the Vale and with Littlefinger, not that I think it will survive the series.

And while GRRM certainly can change something in the characters feelings, this marriage strikes me too much of a fairytale-ending where the ugly frog is kissed and turned into a prince and everyone are happy. Both parties in the equation dislikes the marriage since neither of them was happy last time and I certainly get the feeling both of the is looking for something more "real". Tyrions arc of being loved is pretty important (I honestly think he will stay single unless a strong connection to someone) and Sansa has clearly had enough of loveless marriages. This relation is stained from the beginning from earlier events which are not so easy to wash away.

[SFDanny]

6 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

If you aren't willing to "buy" a direct quote from the book, a direct quote from what GRRM wrote about Tyrion's marriage to Tysha and it's dissolution, that Tywin had the marriage annulled, by Septons, then there is nothing left to discuss.  You have simply made your mind up on this issue and quotes that conflict with that belief no longer matter to you or the discussion.  In my view, given a theory and what GRRM actually wrote, I'll go with GRRM

Me too. I'll go with the quotes I posted and the hints Martin has given us. We certainly don't have to discuss it further, but as The Ned's Little Girl has pointed out there are many quotes by Martin that don't turn out to mean exactly what we think they mean. I think your quote is one of them for all the reasons I've laid out.

[Woman of War]

9 hours ago, Protagoras said:

Hmm, I very much doubt that marriage is going to last (nor be renewed). My point was that I am questioning its value during sansas arc in the Vale and with Littlefinger, not that I think it will survive the series.

And while GRRM certainly can change something in the characters feelings, this marriage strikes me too much of a fairytale-ending where the ugly frog is kissed and turned into a prince and everyone are happy. Both parties in the equation dislikes the marriage since neither of them was happy last time and I certainly get the feeling both of the is looking for something more "real". Tyrions arc of being loved is pretty important (I honestly think he will stay single unless a strong connection to someone) and Sansa has clearly had enough of loveless marriages. This relation is stained from the beginning from earlier events which are not so easy to wash away.

Of course I (or anyone else) do not know more than you do about Martin's plans concerning Sansa and Tyrion. Or Tysha and Tyrion. Or Sansa and Jon. Or Jon and Dany. Or Brienne and Jaime, bear and.... Or any other pairings different fans prefer as ending.

And I'm, just like you, sceptical about happy endings,  any ugly frog kissed into a happily ever after lover. I do not suggest a lovey-dovey falling in love for Tyrion and Sansa but more a reconciliation.  I am thinking of Elisabeth of York who married Henri the last Tudor heir, thus bringing the War of the Roses to an end. I indeed suggest more the idea of political marriage decided by both partners, growing into true partnership. But I may be completely wrong concerning the author's intentions. And all protagonists might be dead in the end anyway 

Certainly , like any fan for his or her favorite, I would love to see a truly happy ending for my favorite, Tyrion in my case, like being loved and desired etc, everything and with candy topping. Could that ever happen via Sansa? And who of these two might be the ugly frog in the end?

 But shall we get it our respective wishes granted? Would dream fulfillment even be within Martin's way of storytelling?

[Protagoras]

4 hours ago, Woman of War said:

Of course I (or anyone else) do not know more than you do about Martin's plans concerning Sansa and Tyrion. Or Tysha and Tyrion. Or Sansa and Jon. Or Jon and Dany. Or Brienne and Jaime, bear and.... Or any other pairings different fans prefer as ending.

And I'm, just like you, sceptical about happy endings,  any ugly frog kissed into a happily ever after lover. I do not suggest a lovey-dovey falling in love for Tyrion and Sansa but more a reconciliation.  I am thinking of Elisabeth of York who married Henri the last Tudor heir, thus bringing the War of the Roses to an end. I indeed suggest more the idea of political marriage decided by both partners, growing into true partnership. But I may be completely wrong concerning the author's intentions. And all protagonists might be dead in the end anyway 

Certainly , like any fan for his or her favorite, I would love to see a truly happy ending for my favorite, Tyrion in my case, like being loved and desired etc, everything and with candy topping. Could that ever happen via Sansa? And who of these two might be the ugly frog in the end?

 But shall we get it our respective wishes granted? Would dream fulfillment even be within Martin's way of storytelling?

Ok, I think I see the issue here. And why I am questioning this.

First of all, I like Tyrion too - I have a lot of understanding for the guy and had defended his actions in the past, mostly from a tit-for-tat perspective. So, lets work from the angle that we both want him to have a happy ending with a pretty woman who loves him. Ok? And that he ends up with Casterley Rock in the end as a great lord in his own right? Ok? So lets ignore Sansa and focus entirely on Tyrion and his wants and needs. Ok?

What I don´t get is why you see the woman by his side as Sansa in the first place. In fact - that combination have been tried and it horribly failed (in comparison to every other combination that hasn´t been tried). There is baggage and there wasnt really that much (I would say absolutely none) chemistry to begin with and they seem to have pretty little in common too. In short - that Sansa and Tyrion would continue with the marriage do break my suspension of disbelief, since no party is really invested in it. So why not in Tyrions case try to pair him with any of all the other women in westeros where this baggage doesn´t exist. Why try something again that didn´t work well last time? Basically - any combination works better - Tyrion/Asha, Tyrion/Arianne, even Tyrion/Daenerys. And that is not to speak for Tyrion/Penny (which we don´t know hoe it will resolve yet, but will certainly be a part of WoW) and Tyrion/Tysha - both far more likely than Tyrion/Sansa. And there are many many more women in Westeros.

Whats worse for this ship - Tyrion himself is having realizations - after the "Tysha incident" and Jaimes truth about it.

“It was sweet,” lied Tyrion, “but I am married. She was with me at the feast, you may remember her. Lady Sansa.”

“Was she your wife? She … she was very beautiful …”

And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women … Tysha was the only one who ever loved me. Where do whores go?

The "old Tyrion" thought that if he could get power people would respect him and with a pretty wife, his life was perfect. Through power, recognition, respect, and love follows. However - it did not work that well for him, did it? Despite his power he was hated and mocked by the entirety of King´s Landing and his pretty wife didn´t love him. What good is pretty if the feelings are wrong. Now - he think he CAN be loved for himself again. Why then go for a lady with curtsies but no true feelings like Sansa? This is a clear example of "the grass is always greener" - a pretty young wife is sounding as a far better idea that it is. 

So what I am saying here is that Tyrion doesn´t want Sansa. At all. In fact - as a fan of Tyrion I am bit shocked that you force Sansa on him. A marriage with Sansa as it was last time is a living nightmare so why let poor Tyrion suffer through that? Didn´t you want a happy ending for Tyrion? With extra topping? So why are you serving him poison? Give him someone that loves him instead (preferably with more matching life experiences). The situation reminds mer more of poor Jezal from Abercrombies First Law trilogy. He 

Spoiler

is also having a pretty wife who doesn´t love him and it is very clear that he is not happy about it and almost is an emotional wreck in a later book. 

Now, certainly people can rethink their feelings but the ship doesn´t seem to be a logical conclusion. And I think Tyrion is tired of illusions too. He wants something real or nothing at all. He has learned from his experiences. He is not willing to hold up a platonic charade who is more power and partnership rather than love. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

I'm pretty sure that Tysha is dead and that she was secretly killed after being sent away. It isn't in Tywin's character to leave "loose ends". I suppose the gang rape and the story that Tysha was a prostitute was organized to undermine her credibility, so Tyrion wouldn't seek her afterwards. The whole "where the whores go" could be a red herring, and Tysha wasn't a whore after all.

 

[Nevets]

On 9/10/2016 at 2:24 AM, SFDanny said:

Good catch of the quote. Of course it shows that Tyrion never testified to any septons about his marriage, particularly that it wasn't consummated. For the marriage to be annulled it takes such an act by at least one of the parties. Given that Tywin doesn't even know where Tysha went after the rape, we can be sure she didn't testify either. So, we are left with Tywin having somehow got the High Septon. or a Council of Faith, to act without testimony against their own rules to annul the marriage, and to do it in secret. Much more likely this is the story Tywin tells a thirteen year old Tyrion after his brother tells him Tysha was a whore he bought for him. It is totally out of character of Tywin to open his family to ridicule with open proceedings to annul a marriage. It is right in his wheelhouse to use brutal force to destroy the people involved so they never say anything again about it. What your quote shows, is that, if Tyrion isn't making this part up to dissuade Shae, that the traumatized young boy never thinks to question his father's power to actually do what he tells him he did. My money is still on the marriage still being valid, and Littlefinger using that to claim the marriage to Sansa wasn't ever valid.

Given  the numerous irregularities with this marriage (underage participants acting without consent; drunk septon, possibly outside his official capacity; no record; no witnesses; who know what else), finding grounds for setting aside the marriage is likely not an insurmountable obstacle, especially for a man of Tywin's stature.  Given Tyrion's minority, it is likely that Tywin was able to act in his stead, thus eliminating the need for Tyrion's presence.  I think this marriage is dead.  And even if Tysha were to reappear, there would be huge credibility issues, especially if Littlefinger is anywhere in the picture and/or she is, or was, a prostitute. 

As for the children of Aegon V, while the World Book isn't entirely clear, I got the impression that he was unable to do anything about it not because he lacked the authority, but because it wouldn't do any good.  They were going to remain together no matter what he did, so unwinding the marriage wasn't worth the effort.  

[RumHam]

On 9/10/2016 at 6:13 AM, sweetsunray said:

That septon... might that be the septon at the Wall? He's also always in his cups.

In defense of this anonymous drunken septon, we don't know that we was always drunk. Totally possible Tyrion kept buying him wine in order to convince him.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, RumHam said:

In defense of this anonymous drunken septon, we don't know that we was always drunk. Totally possible Tyrion kept buying him wine in order to convince him.

If he does his ceremonies while drunk, it sounds like he's an alcoholic. And Tyrion was 13 at the time. There's little we know about him and the septon of the Wall is not remarked on by Tyrion while at the wall (as in not mentioned in scenes). But the Faith might indeed send such a septon there - at least at the Wall nobody's supposed to marry

[Stubby]

[MOD]

No show stuff in the book threads, please.

[/MOD]

[purrl1]

There's a drunken Septon Cellador at the Wall. Seems like a convenient way for Tywin to get rid of the officiant to his son's mesalliance. If BookSansa ever makes it North again, she might be able to get her hands on a witness to attest to Tyrion's bigamy.

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎10‎.‎09‎.‎2016 at 11:40 AM, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Sansa is legally married to Tyrion until she is in a position to request an annulment for herself based on non-consumation (which was pointed out as a basis for annulment for a reason).

My question: Is Littlefinger aware that Sansa is still a virgin?