Is Mance Literate?

[Nyrhex]

9 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

Do you think Mance is the type of guy who would want to read and write?

No actually, I don't. If he is capable of writing for the needs of the plot, so he could write or at least forge the Pink Letter, I think that would be an out of character trait for plot reasons, not a natural thing for him.

[Jon Fossoway]

8 hours ago, Beautiful Bloody Sword said:

I think the evidence for opportunity is exemplified in how Davos learns to read, from a literate person, albeit a child. The key is proximity to a literate person willing to teach, with Aemon, Jeor, Donal, Benjen, Alliser, Bowen, etc., to name but a few, the options aren't exactly scarce. The other side of the equation is the desire to learn and the wits to accomplish it.

I think the key there is friendship and affection, not proximity. And you also factor the characters personalities. Davos is a humble dude. Shireen is a lonely over-read girl.

[Jon Fossoway]

10 hours ago, Nyrhex said:

There is no logical reason for Mance to know how to read and write. Growing up in the NW is about as helpful to learning how to read as growing up in Flea Bottom. Mance was a ranger, which gives him even worse chances to have some downtime to learn how to read. 

Aemon did not help anyone to learn how to read, and Mance is far from the only one to grow up in the NW. Being a kid just means you don't do guard duty, you still have a bunch of things to do all day, and if Aemon was in to teaching people how to read he would not have a dire need of Sam. Of the two guys he had already, only one could read and he was pushing 60. The ~20 guys who can read and write? They came like that to the Wall. The handfull of knights and others from a slightly higher than rock-bottom status. GRRM is kinda strong with his "peasants have poo on thier faces and care only about the weather". 

Then again GRRM can have Mance quote Valyrian poems while writing a Braavosi play from memory if he wants. 

Ditto.  

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

9 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

I think the key there is friendship and affection, not proximity. And you also factor the characters personalities. Davos is a humble dude. Shireen is a lonely over-read girl.

Davos is not the go getter that Mance is, nor is he the bilingual bard of every bawdy song from Dorne to the Frostfangs. No other bard or Nights Watch brother or Northerner, that I know of, that speaks the Old Tongue. Mance knows waaay too much to be illiterate.

[the conquering bastard 25]

On 8/28/2016 at 6:43 AM, forod said:

This is an aspect of theories concerning Mance that has always bugged me. For example, lots of people claim he wrote the Pink Letter, but we have no proof he can even write. I have no idea if growing up with the NW, a Maester would teach a child literacy. If not, and he is literate, it muddies his past even more. 

Thoughts?

Thank you tap dance and praise to someone that has seen that particular flaw in the evidence that Mance was the author of the Pink letter. 

 

Yet i do get the impression that Mance could read and write. Go back and read how Mance talks once he's back on the wall. He carries himself as a courtier. He's too well spoken to be what his backstory states he is. Now whether mance is another character I don't know but I have an idea  of whom he really is or was.  Just like the Halfhand. THere is something just wrong about their backstories and there are holes that are only filled if they aren't who they say they are.

[Jon Fossoway]

4 hours ago, the conquering bastard 25 said:

Thank you tap dance and praise to someone that has seen that particular flaw in the evidence that Mance was the author of the Pink letter. 

 

Yet i do get the impression that Mance could read and write. Go back and read how Mance talks once he's back on the wall. He carries himself as a courtier. He's too well spoken to be what his backstory states he is. Now whether mance is another character I don't know but I have an idea  of whom he really is or was.  Just like the Halfhand. THere is something just wrong about their backstories and there are holes that are only filled if they aren't who they say they are.

Mance is a great imitator and a deceiver. He's also a great observer. He could pass himself as a bard in Winterfell, among several lords and knights, some of them southron. He visited the same castle when he was young. They faked his death. Deceit is all over his character. I do think he may have written the letter passing as Ramsay, with someone else's help (up to George, as always) as one of the possibilities. If you take into account that the guy is just a sneaky bastard, him behaving courtly is just another one of his feats. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

Even if he knows his letters and can write, it doesn't make him a good candidate for the pink letter, the "motive" the theory rests on is false, as Mance has no idea Tormund and his wildlings are south of the wall.

 

It seems like most people are in agreement about this.  Mance shouldn't be able to right, but for whatever reason seemingly can.

[the conquering bastard 25]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Even if he knows his letters and can write, it doesn't make him a good candidate for the pink letter, the "motive" the theory rests on is false, as Mance has no idea Tormund and his wildlings are south of the wall.

 

It seems like most people are in agreement about this.  Mance shouldn't be able to right, but for whatever reason seemingly can.

I don't think that he wrote the letter in the first place. 

I was just pointing out that there are some holes in the whole Mance was the author of the pink letter in the first place.

If he was when and where did he learn his letter. He is suppose to be the whelp of a wildling and a black brother.

When did he have the time to learn? The theory that Aemon taught him just don't hold water. 

Yet if Mance isnt who he say he is then him knowing how to read and write along with the manner in which he speaks begins to make more sense. 

I mean think about the story that he tells jon when they first meet. That they had met twice before. While all of that may be true. There are some holes in the story. 

For example Mance mentions that he saw all of the Stark children's wolf pups. Yet can't be true as Jon was the only one that was able to bring his wolf to the feast. Then there is the story that he knew every bawdy song north and south of the wall to sing for King Robert.

How does Mance know that that's the preferred type of music that Robert likes? I mean I don't imagine that topic of conversation coming up very much on the wall. There are just some minor holes that unless one is really paying attention are easy to miss. 

Then there is Mance and is treatment of Jon. He goes out of his way to protect Jon while hes on his mission north of the Wall. Sending Jon out with Tommand for example. Setting him up with a man that he knows will at least take care of and has shown that will stand up for Jon on first sight. Making Jon one of the first men over the wall. Knowing good and well that Jon was no turncoat. I don't think that Mance got to his position among the Wildlings by being stupid. He had to know that Bastard of Winterfell or not that he was the son of Ned Stark and having met the man that it's he would want a wildling army attacking his father's lands. No sorry Mance was protecting Jon. Now i might be alittle bold in my assesment but it seems to me that Mance almost wanted Jon to get to the watch to warn them of the upcoming army. The why is simple. He wanted to get his people to safety. He knew that the Wildlings under normal circumstances wouldn't be welcome south of the Wall. So he had to put on a show. 

Appear to fight(the battle beyond the wall is proof of that) which saves face with his people he can still say that he tried to take the Watch by suprise and force. While allowing the Watch the means to set terms to let the wildlings thru the Wall. By gathering them all together it's simpler than sending people out to gather the masses of Wildlings beyond the wall. This could all just be speculation but there is more to Mance Ryder than meets the eye.

[Lord Wraith]

Perhaps Mance is the mind behind the Pink Letter and not the physical writer. He certainly got into Winterfell with help he could have head help writing it from someone else.

[Ice Turtle]

Knowledge is power. If Mance ever grasped that literacy would give him some amount of power, he likely took initiative and found someone to teach him. He is described as an able and ambitious man, the best one the Watch was able to produce. From the plot and character perspective neither option (Mance being literate / illiterate ) would be odd and there is a chance that we will never learn for sure.

[Jon Fossoway]

On 1/9/2016 at 4:29 PM, the conquering bastard 25 said:

 

For example Mance mentions that he saw all of the Stark children's wolf pups. Yet can't be true as Jon was the only one that was able to bring his wolf to the feast. Then there is the story that he knew every bawdy song north and south of the wall to sing for King Robert.

 

Hm, I don't have the books at my side, but I think he meant that he saw Eddard's children (I guess the eldest at least), to whom he referred as 'wolf pups', not the actual direwolves of Ned's children. He's been for years north of the Wall rallying people around him. 

[Clegane'sPup]

4 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Hm, I don't have the books at my side, but I think he meant that he saw Eddard's children (I guess the eldest at least), to whom he referred as 'wolf pups', not the actual direwolves of Ned's children. He's been for years north of the Wall rallying people around him. 

I’ll try to help out a bit. Mance was in WF for more than one day. He had the opportunity to observe much and more. Doesn’t mean the wolf pups were at the feast. Merely means Mance possibly saw the pups running around after the children when the children were running around WF. Or it is another of Martin’s mishaps.

SoS Jon c.7  "The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance." He laughed. "I know every bawdy song that's ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father's meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard's children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."

[Clegane'sPup]

I’m gonna go with the Mance is literate. Don’t know how old he was when he was taken in by the NW after the NW put a group of wildlings to sword. If Mance was taken in at ST and groomed there he had that Mallister knight, & Commander of ST who had been there 33 years and a Maester. They would want to school the boy to take the wildling outta him. Less they shoved him into manual labor like mucking stalls or Mance displayed a talent as a fighter which led to him becoming a ranger.

Then again I gotta ask myself why LC Qorgyle had Mance accompany him to WF. Did Qorgyle tell Mallister to send Mance to CB. Or is it just another nonsense situation.

[YOVMO]

On August 28, 2016 at 6:43 AM, forod said:

This is an aspect of theories concerning Mance that has always bugged me. For example, lots of people claim he wrote the Pink Letter, but we have no proof he can even write. I have no idea if growing up with the NW, a Maester would teach a child literacy. If not, and he is literate, it muddies his past even more. 

Thoughts?

Read the most excellent Mance=Rhaegar post by @Wheels and then reconsider the question. I won't go as far as to say it is right, but it is awfully freaking compelling.

[JLE]

Of one thing I'm certain: if Mance *has* learned to read, Aemon wasn't his teacher - not because he had no interest in teaching, as some have said in this thread, but because Aemon is of course blind.

How would a blind man actually teach literacy when he could not see letters on a page, whether to point out to his pupil or checking his own pupil's work?

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

1 hour ago, JLE said:

Of one thing I'm certain: if Mance *has* learned to read, Aemon wasn't his teacher - not because he had no interest in teaching, as some have said in this thread, but because Aemon is of course blind.

How would a blind man actually teach literacy when he could not see letters on a page, whether to point out to his pupil or checking his own pupil's work?

Was Aemon blind 17+ years ago? I don't believe it's ever said when exactly he went blind. I was under the impression that his faculties began to fail him with extended old age and a lifetime of reading, probably often in poor lighting, no good for the peepers, neither is 100+ years of use.

[Minstral]

1 hour ago, JLE said:

Of one thing I'm certain: if Mance *has* learned to read, Aemon wasn't his teacher - not because he had no interest in teaching, as some have said in this thread, but because Aemon is of course blind.

How would a blind man actually teach literacy when he could not see letters on a page, whether to point out to his pupil or checking his own pupil's work?

Mance is mid thirties at the least, and Aemon's blindness is something that has not always afflicted him. There are other reasons that make Aemon an unlikely tutor, such as being a Ranger stationed at the Shadow Tower or the fact that Aemon would be busy with other things, but this is not an something that ends this theory. Twenty to Thirty years leaves a wide margin in your theory as Mance was taken as a boy.

You could ask if the Half-Hand was literate, but we don't know as it is never stated in the negative or the affirmative. It is one of those situations that where there is no evidence to say what is true and what is not, but it could be easily be made possible with simply a few words and context from GRRM.

For example: "Qhorin proved that he wouldn't let a disability be a detriment to himself and had great determination to re-learn how to fight just as effectively with his other hand. He applied himself in a similar manner to learning his words to an extent, and since Mance was a close friend he helped him as well (or perhaps the Half-Hand was of minor nobility or a family like a clerks that required some bookkeeping, and knew them that way)". I made that up entirely, but if GRRM used a similar reasoning he could make Mance partially literate if he wanted. That said I am on the fence regarding this theory. Knowing your letters might help a bard, but a good memory compensates for this easily enough. The thing is that there is no strong evidence either way, and people are essentially using their gut feeling to reason this out.

[JLE]

On 04/09/2016 at 4:48 AM, YOVMO said:

Read the most excellent Mance=Rhaegar post by @Wheels and then reconsider the question. I won't go as far as to say it is right, but it is awfully freaking compelling.

There is no such thing as an excellent Mance = Rhaegar post, because Rhaegar is *absolutely known* to be dead. Killed by Robert Baratheon. The two knew each other personally: they came to blows in a battle, and Robert was the victor. Rhaegar was killed, and the victors took possession of his body... in front of hundreds of witnesses.

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, JLE said:

There is no such thing as an excellent Mance = Rhaegar post, because Rhaegar is *absolutely known* to be dead. Killed by Robert Baratheon. The two knew each other personally: they came to blows in a battle, and Robert was the victor. Rhaegar was killed, and the victors took possession of his body... in front of hundreds of witnesses.

yeah. you are right and because there is no magic in the world and because no one ever comes back to life in any way, shape or form AND because the gods of planetos don't seem to be influencing the world in any way AND because Targaryens are never special in any way especially when it comes to dealing with fire....like the kind of fire that GRRM says Rhaegar was cremated in.... then you are totally right.

I mean, it was just like when the Mountain killed Beric Dondarrion. He was totally done for. Oh, and cold hands. He doesn't exist. And blood raven died years ago. Oh, and the mountain....he definitely isn't up to anything ever since dying in the black cells and I am pretty sure we won't see jon snow again since he was killed by the knights watch. There is absolutely no army of zombies north of the wall either. You are more right than you know. How insane people must be to think it is possible that anything supernatural, involving fire and a return from the dead could ever happen in ASOIAF. I mean, that is just insane. Ugh. Thanks for reminding me.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Yeah, and people can totally come back to life after they have been cremated (i.e, reduced to ashes). Not out of the realm of impossibility at all