The Name of Ice, House Stark's Greatsword

[Jattack]

House Stark's greatsword was apparently "Spellforged in Valyria and named after the Legacy of an older blade". So therefore House Stark at one point possessed a blade called Ice, before the current Ice. There is the legend of the Night's King which is where the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who fell in love with a woman with "skin as pale as snow", many theorise this to be one of the "Others". Also theorised is that the Night King could have been a Stark. When the Others have appeared they have used weapons that appear to be made of ice and even GRRM said "Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.". What if, the original Ice was a sword given to the Night's King by his bride, and after he was defeated by his brother The King of Winter, he claimed the sword for himself and his House?

[King Ragnar]

And what happened to it afterwards?

[Jattack]

Well two Bolton Red Kings captured and sacked Winterfell, if they wanted to humiliate the Starks even more, a good way to do that would be to destroy their ancestral magic sword.

[Seams]

My educated guess was that the earlier sword was named "Justice." There is a (presumed) missing sword called Truth that was connected to both the Targaryens and to Dorne. So I think Justice was lost along the way and the name was forgotten and shortened to just merely Ice.

[Jattack]

Doesn't Truth belong to a rich Lysene Magister?

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Jattack said:

Doesn't Truth belong to a rich Lysene Magister?

It did. The guy who originally had it died without children, as I recall. That Lysene family married into both the Targs and the Martells. The sword's whereabouts are currently unknown, I believe.

[Curled Finger]

Ancestral Ice tie in with the Nights King is a nice conclusion--as good an idea as I've seen.  

44 minutes ago, Seams said:

It did. The guy who originally had it died without children, as I recall. That Lysene family married into both the Targs and the Martells. The sword's whereabouts are currently unknown, I believe.

I have to hand it to you, Seams, you're like a sponge absorbing everything.   You've becoming an authority.   It's so good to see your genuine interest thrive.   There are not enough sword geeks around this joint!   

[Seams]

42 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ancestral Ice tie in with the Nights King is a nice conclusion--as good an idea as I've seen.  

I have to hand it to you, Seams, you're like a sponge absorbing everything.   You've becoming an authority.   It's so good to see your genuine interest thrive.   There are not enough sword geeks around this joint!   

 I'm not yet worthy of the title Sword Geek, but let's say I'm working on my sword merit badge. They do seem key to some of the larger mysteries of the plot(s), don't they? I know at one time I was certain that Truth was lost forever - for symbolic reasons. But GRRM is so full of surprises and planted hints. Maybe truth and justice will be rediscovered one of these days.

[Curled Finger]

Indeed.  And don't forget Vigilance.   It needs to resurface right along side your mentions. 

[Jattack]

If Vigilance is resurfacing after being lost during the dance, why not the other Valyrian steel sword lost in the dance, Lamentation?

[Cridefea]

This remind me the story of the Elder Wand in Harry Potter. I think Ice will be very important, but who can trace its story? Sam maybe?

[Jattack]

Sam is probably the most likely because I think the Citadel is the only place other than Winterfell that would have that knowledge about House Stark, but I'd wager Ramsay burned all of Winterfell's books when he sacked it. So the Citadel may be the only place with the Knowledge 

[Jon Fossoway]

Errr, maybe the Night's Queen was actually a sword 'pale as milk', like Dawn, that posessed the Night's King. Maybe Dawn is actually THAT sword, that somehow managed to get down to Dorne. Who knows.

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Jattack said:

If Vigilance is resurfacing after being lost during the dance, why not the other Valyrian steel sword lost in the dance, Lamentation?

The wording in the wiki is very specific.   It says Brightroar and Lamentation are lost.   The others, Vigilance, Blackfyre, Dark Sister, Orphan-Maker and Truth, are not said to be lost.   Vigilance was last seen during the dance as was Orphan-Maker.  We simply don't know what happened to them.  Their fates are more ambiguous that Lamentation's as I think it's pretty straightforward that Lamentation was demolished, melted, annihilated and otherwise destroyed in the dragon pits.  There are plenty of folks who believe Brightroar and Lamentation are still around somewhere, but I'm stuck on the math regarding the swords meaning there needs to be 12, not 14.  We have had some stellar discussions about the swords--you can search most any thread for really interesting intel on this.   Naturally, my favorite was our Let's Find The Swords topic, but there are many fine discussions that can help you make up your own mind about Brightroar and Lamentation and all the rest.   Let me know if you find Truth or Orphan-maker, will ya?   

[Curled Finger]

26 minutes ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Errr, maybe the Night's Queen was actually a sword 'pale as milk', like Dawn, that posessed the Night's King. Maybe Dawn is actually THAT sword, that somehow managed to get down to Dorne. Who knows.

I'm glad you brought it up.   My short term memory is lacking these days and it's a really neat idea.   

[mediterraneo]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The wording in the wiki is very specific.   It says Brightroar and Lamentation are lost.   The others, Vigilance, Blackfyre, Dark Sister, Orphan-Maker and Truth, are not said to be lost.   Vigilance was last seen during the dance as was Orphan-Maker.  We simply don't know what happened to them.  Their fates are more ambiguous that Lamentation's as I think it's pretty straightforward that Lamentation was demolished, melted, annihilated and otherwise destroyed in the dragon pits.  There are plenty of folks who believe Brightroar and Lamentation are still around somewhere, but I'm stuck on the math regarding the swords meaning there needs to be 12, not 14.  We have had some stellar discussions about the swords--you can search most any thread for really interesting intel on this.   Naturally, my favorite was our Let's Find The Swords topic, but there are many fine discussions that can help you make up your own mind about Brightroar and Lamentation and all the rest.   Let me know if you find Truth or Orphan-maker, will ya?   

Well, if I remember correctly there was a SSM saying that there are around a hundred valyrian steel swords in Westeros, so we shouldn't take too strictly any count to 12 or to 14 of the swords of which we already know the name.
Like noting that it is different for a sword to be "lost" in world or simpl out of the readers' sight, there is a difference between non existing and not having been cited (yet) to the readers.
There are plenty of valyrian weapons out there.
And I bet against some prime number number of knights to militarily defeat the Others at the end of the series. If there is a meaning of the swords, I bet it will be symbolical, not practical.
To the thread point, I like all of the "north of the Wall" references tied to the Stark family.
Their old title, "kings of winter".
Their warcry, "winter is coming".
Their sword, "Ice".
Their ancestral fortress's name, "winterfell" fitting the traditional tale of the Long Night's introduction: "A great winter fell on the land..."
When you add up the legends about the Night King being a Stark, the Last Hero "victory" resulting in finding the Children of the Forest and forging a Pact with them, and even the Bale the Bard story of kidnapping...
Well, when you have the Stark being the only known skinchanger born south of the Wall, you start asking yourself questions.
Were the Stark of old the human half of the Children of the Forest's self defence force, pairing up with the White Walkers?
Is that's why they behead wou with ice?

[MinotaurWarrior]

22 hours ago, Jattack said:

There is the legend of the Night's King which is where the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who fell in love with a woman with "skin as pale as snow", many theorise this to be one of the "Others". Also theorised is that the Night King could have been a Stark. 

Or that Brandon the Builder, AKA the guy who built a magical wall of ice, might have been an Other himself, and the original conclusion of the War for the Dawn might have involved the installation of a family who paid tribute to the others (ala craster) as Lord in the south, with the founding of House Stark by Brandon being a story of a great Other raising up his brothers or nephews or cousins to keep the peace.

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, mediterraneo said:

Well, if I remember correctly there was a SSM saying that there are around a hundred valyrian steel swords in Westeros, so we shouldn't take too strictly any count to 12 or to 14 of the swords of which we already know the name.
Like noting that it is different for a sword to be "lost" in world or simpl out of the readers' sight, there is a difference between non existing and not having been cited (yet) to the readers.
There are plenty of valyrian weapons out there.
And I bet against some prime number number of knights to militarily defeat the Others at the end of the series. If there is a meaning of the swords, I bet it will be symbolical, not practical.
To the thread point, I like all of the "north of the Wall" references tied to the Stark family.
Their old title, "kings of winter".
Their warcry, "winter is coming".
Their sword, "Ice".
Their ancestral fortress's name, "winterfell" fitting the traditional tale of the Long Night's introduction: "A great winter fell on the land..."
When you add up the legends about the Night King being a Stark, the Last Hero "victory" resulting in finding the Children of the Forest and forging a Pact with them, and even the Bale the Bard story of kidnapping...
Well, when you have the Stark being the only known skinchanger born south of the Wall, you start asking yourself questions.
Were the Stark of old the human half of the Children of the Forest's self defence force, pairing up with the White Walkers?
Is that's why they behead wou with ice?

Thanks for your thoughts.  You draw a very nice logical picture of the Starks and The North.  If there is an SSM stating there are more than 100 VS swords in Westeros I would be very interested in reading it.  That would be a definite game changer for many many readers who see the Westerosi swords in the same light I do.  Please provide a link or better yet the SSM itself.  I will respond to your question this evening as my phone tends to have a mind of its own and the work day is starting.  Really startling information.

[Seams]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

If there is an SSM stating there are more than 100 VS swords in Westeros I would be very interested in reading it. 

I don't know about any SSM, but this is in the World book:

The properties of Valyrian steel are well-known, and are the result of both folding iron many times to balance and remove impurities, and the use of spells—or at least arts we do not know—to give unnatural strength to the resulting steel. Those arts are now lost, though the smiths of Qohor claim to still know magics for reworking Valyrian steel without losing its strength or unsurpassed ability to hold an edge. The Valyrian steel blades that remain in the world might number in the thousands, but in the Seven Kingdoms there are only 227 such weapons according to Archmaester Thurgood's Inventories, some of which have since been lost or have disappeared from the annals of history.

(The World of Ice and Fire, Ancient History: Valyria's Children, p. 15)

I realize that we are dealing with a couple of layers of unreliable narrators every time there is a reference to a book by an old maester, but an old source that indicates 227 surely means that there are more than 12 known swords out there somewhere. Yandel indicates that "some" have been lost or have "disappeared from the annals of history." Some may be daggers or other weapons, so that could account for some reduction of the 227 count when we are focused on genuine swords known to exist. If they were down to 12, it seems as if Yandel would have chosen words to indicate that the vast majority of the blades had been lost, not just "some."

[cgrav]

I think another there's another thread that broke down the numbers claim on the basis of there being 227 Valyrian steel weapons, but only the dozen or so actual swords. Off the top of my head, I know the catspaw's blade meant for Bran was VS and someone has a VS axe.

its pretty widely speculated that the original Ice was a weapon of the Others, but I don't thin I've run across any theory on what happened to it. Can we even place the event on a rough timeline? We know that the present Ice came right before the Doom of Valyria (timing which I suspect is significant), but was it an immediate replacement, or had they been long without a hereditary sword?

is it possible that the original Ice wasn't actually lost, but discarded? Like the original somehow became obsolete. Maybe a dragonglass blade was like the new iPhone of Westeros and something told the Starks they just had to upgrade right then or it would too late.