Jump to content

Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?


Free folk Daemon

Recommended Posts

It's Eddard.

Meera and Jojen repeatedly refer to KotLT as "he, him, his" rather than an ambiguous "the knight" if they wanted to pull a twist later (George does this elsewhere several times).

The KotLT's other descriptors can filter out who he really is:

Mismatched armor - Doesn't really narrow it down at all. Someone wanting to hide their identity wouldn't use their own armor(or horse), even if they had it with them.

Short of stature - Ned is never described as tall, he's described as shorter than his older brother Brandon and taller than his son Robb (himself shorter than a 12-yr old Joffrey). Catelyn also mentions that Ned grew further after their wedding (when Ned was 20) while at the Tourney at Harrenhal Ned was only 18. Ned may have also used one of Robert's exceptionally large horses - dwarfing himself in the process (Gregor does the reverse to his horse during the Hand's Tourney - with Ned as PoV).

Booming voice - It's mentioned several times throughout the books that Ned was able to use a booming voice, having trained at it with Robert under Jon Arryn's instruction in order to become a good battlefield commander. One of these mentions is at the Hand's Tourney (again Ned as PoV)

Weirwood sigil - Fits with all the proposed candidates but still works best for Ned as someone who was devout to the Old Gods but still often laughs and smiles - especially in his youth at the Vale with Robert.

Jousting competency - The KotLT defeats 3 champions handily, marking him as a well-trained jouster. Robert calls Ned a knight and they grew up together in the Vale where they would certainly have been trained in jousting.

The call for Ned's head - With Ned as the KotLT and Robert as an accomplice it gives Aerys a reason to call for their heads to start Robert's Rebellion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, 

Lyanna was pointedly a natural horseperson and Ned does point out that Loras too sits a horse well and that's why he's good at jousting. 

After Aerys declared the KotLT was his enemy Rhaegar did track her down, find out he was a she and hott as well as well dowered and probably a damn good fit for mother of the PWP from the books of prophecy he read in addition to a damn good fit for the cause of the downfall of house Targaryen in the books of prophecy Aerys read. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Free folk Daemon said:

Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree mentioned in Meera Reed's story in A Storm Of Swords? If you think so or believe it is another, please provide evidence to support your view. Thanks

Yes.

 

See 6.2.7. WHO WAS THE KNIGHT OF THE LAUGHING TREE?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 weeks later...
On 28/08/2016 at 9:02 PM, Kienn said:

It's Eddard.

Meera and Jojen repeatedly refer to KotLT as "he, him, his" rather than an ambiguous "the knight" if they wanted to pull a twist later (George does this elsewhere several times).

The KotLT's other descriptors can filter out who he really is:

Mismatched armor - Doesn't really narrow it down at all. Someone wanting to hide their identity wouldn't use their own armor(or horse), even if they had it with them.

Short of stature - Ned is never described as tall, he's described as shorter than his older brother Brandon and taller than his son Robb (himself shorter than a 12-yr old Joffrey). Catelyn also mentions that Ned grew further after their wedding (when Ned was 20) while at the Tourney at Harrenhal Ned was only 18. Ned may have also used one of Robert's exceptionally large horses - dwarfing himself in the process (Gregor does the reverse to his horse during the Hand's Tourney - with Ned as PoV).

Booming voice - It's mentioned several times throughout the books that Ned was able to use a booming voice, having trained at it with Robert under Jon Arryn's instruction in order to become a good battlefield commander. One of these mentions is at the Hand's Tourney (again Ned as PoV)

Weirwood sigil - Fits with all the proposed candidates but still works best for Ned as someone who was devout to the Old Gods but still often laughs and smiles - especially in his youth at the Vale with Robert.

Jousting competency - The KotLT defeats 3 champions handily, marking him as a well-trained jouster. Robert calls Ned a knight and they grew up together in the Vale where they would certainly have been trained in jousting.

The call for Ned's head - With Ned as the KotLT and Robert as an accomplice it gives Aerys a reason to call for their heads to start Robert's Rebellion.

I'm not sure the theory it's Ned has any more weight than the one it's Lyanna. Richard Lonmouth Rhaegar's squire and Robert Baratheon swearing they would unmask the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Aerys sending Rhaegar to find the knight seems too convenient a fit for it not to be Lyanna, who is compared by Barbery Dustin along with Brandon to "a pair of centaurs", and by Roose Bolton as "half a horse herself". Is there any textual evidence Rhaegar met Lyanna prior to crowning her Queen of love and beauty at Harrenhal? The booming voice is probably more likely easier for Ned to make though...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/28/2016 at 4:02 PM, Kienn said:

It's Eddard.

Meera and Jojen repeatedly refer to KotLT as "he, him, his" rather than an ambiguous "the knight" if they wanted to pull a twist later (George does this elsewhere several times).

The KotLT's other descriptors can filter out who he really is:

Mismatched armor - Doesn't really narrow it down at all. Someone wanting to hide their identity wouldn't use their own armor(or horse), even if they had it with them.

Short of stature - Ned is never described as tall, he's described as shorter than his older brother Brandon and taller than his son Robb (himself shorter than a 12-yr old Joffrey). Catelyn also mentions that Ned grew further after their wedding (when Ned was 20) while at the Tourney at Harrenhal Ned was only 18. Ned may have also used one of Robert's exceptionally large horses - dwarfing himself in the process (Gregor does the reverse to his horse during the Hand's Tourney - with Ned as PoV).

Booming voice - It's mentioned several times throughout the books that Ned was able to use a booming voice, having trained at it with Robert under Jon Arryn's instruction in order to become a good battlefield commander. One of these mentions is at the Hand's Tourney (again Ned as PoV)

Weirwood sigil - Fits with all the proposed candidates but still works best for Ned as someone who was devout to the Old Gods but still often laughs and smiles - especially in his youth at the Vale with Robert.

Jousting competency - The KotLT defeats 3 champions handily, marking him as a well-trained jouster. Robert calls Ned a knight and they grew up together in the Vale where they would certainly have been trained in jousting.

The call for Ned's head - With Ned as the KotLT and Robert as an accomplice it gives Aerys a reason to call for their heads to start Robert's Rebellion.

Not to mention Howland Reed was so loyal to Eddard that he left the Neck to fight alongside him during Robert's Rebellion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Free folk Daemon said:

I'm not sure the theory it's Ned has any more weight than the one it's Lyanna. Richard Lonmouth Rhaegar's squire and Robert Baratheon swearing they would unmask the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Aerys sending Rhaegar to find the knight seems too convenient a fit for it not to be Lyanna, who is compared by Barbery Dustin along with Brandon to "a pair of centaurs", and by Roose Bolton as "half a horse herself". Is there any textual evidence Rhaegar met Lyanna prior to crowning her Queen of love and beauty at Harrenhal? The booming voice is probably more likely easier for Ned to make though...

Ned's theory has considerably less weight. As improbably as it is that it's Lyanna (from a practical, not plot, standpoint), there really aren't other good options.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, it was Howland. 

Among various subtle reasons to believe this: If it wasn't Howland, then Howland got his ass kicked by three squires... marked their faces for future vengeance, which he burned to get... prayed for guidance in the direction of the Isle of Faces, where he'd lived with the green men for a long winter... then finally decided to let someone else risk his or her life jousting three trained knights on Howland's behalf, possibly a teen girl with zero experience... and then, having done this cowardly thing, Howland then repeatedly told the tale of his shady conduct to his children, so they would memorize his cowardice down to fine detail and could easily repeat it to others.

Or, you know, it was Howland.  The Isle of Faces has something to do with this.  When Meera said the old gods lent strength to his arm, she wasn't kidding around.  And he told the tale to his children to illustrate the value of fighting your own battles, which makes far more sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, WeaselPie said:

Bran the Timelord warged Howland.

Howland prayed to the trees for help, Bran heard him, Bran always wanted to be a knight, etc.  

 

Izi Pizi.

Nothing like this has ever been confirmed in the books yet. Plus Bran can NOT 'Warg' other people, in any time zone. 

The term Warg refers to the connection with his Wolf. Bran 'skinchanges' Hodor etc, he never Wargs him. 

Sorry. That is a very big pet hate of mine on this forum. I mean no offense, just wanted to point it out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Free folk Daemon said:

I'm not sure the theory it's Ned has any more weight than the one it's Lyanna. Richard Lonmouth Rhaegar's squire and Robert Baratheon swearing they would unmask the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Aerys sending Rhaegar to find the knight seems too convenient a fit for it not to be Lyanna, who is compared by Barbery Dustin along with Brandon to "a pair of centaurs", and by Roose Bolton as "half a horse herself". Is there any textual evidence Rhaegar met Lyanna prior to crowning her Queen of love and beauty at Harrenhal? The booming voice is probably more likely easier for Ned to make though...

I think the pointers are there for us with the Roose comment, among other hints:

"Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."

I think the bolded is slightly more than deliberate, and it's part of the same sentence that talks about Lyanna. 

As to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Harrenhal is the first time he has seen her. We have no concrete evidence he noticed her crying at his song at the opening feast, I believe there's a huge chance he does though.

What I think happens is he unmasks her as the Mystery Knight and the connection between them is made there. He lies to his father about not finding TMK and goes back to whoop everybody left in the lists to then crown Lyanna, who he shares a wee secret with. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes it was definitely Lyanna.  There's really no other reason for all the references to her being such a good horse rider.  Jon is not a particularly good rider, so it is not to establish that connection, it must be something else.  Then there is her meeting Rhaegar.  This establishes why Rhaegar fell for her, and how they first met.

When I first read the story I thought it was Ned also, since that would explain why Howland was so loyal to Ned.  However there is no reason for Ned to hide his identity.  He is a male who was not already jousting in the tourney. 

Finally George decided to introduce us to a character named Lady Lance, a 14 year old jousting girl.  If that isn't pointing out the truth idk what is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On August 28, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Kienn said:

It's Eddard.

Weirwood sigil - Fits with all the proposed candidates but still works best for Ned as someone who was devout to the Old Gods but still often laughs and smiles - especially in his youth at the Vale with Robert.

It's not Ned, it's Lyanna...

Ned doesn't laugh, or at least is well known as super serious, even as a kid...

"Would that we could," Ned said, "but we have duties now, my liege … to the realm, to our children, I to my lady wife and you to your queen. We are not the boys we were."
"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" 
"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/28/2016 at 4:02 PM, Kienn said:

 

It's Eddard.

 

There is little to no reason for Ned to hide his identity.  As a noble 18 year old, he had every right to fight, and could most likely obtain a matching armor set.  Even Howland Reed could legitimately enter, and there is no reason not to tell his children the KotLT was him.  

In my opinion, the most important clue is that the KotLT had to enter as a mystery knight.  This would have been potentially troublesome to the KotLT as most mystery knights are underage, fighting without the blessing of their lord, or wanted criminals.  Even a non paranoid king would be interested in unmasking the mystery knight.  

The second clue is that in the story, King Aerys is the one who sent Rhaegar to search for the KotLT.  In a narrative telling sense, the prince is second to the king in terms of showing the importance of finding the identity of the KotLT.  In other words, if Aerys sent a Kingsguard it would show the same importance as Aerys sending Rhaegar.  Therefore the importance of  Rhaegar being sent must be in his search.

Given this and other information already talked about, Lyanna is the most likely to be the KotLT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It's not Ned, it's Lyanna...

Ned doesn't laugh, or at least is well known as super serious, even as a kid...

"Would that we could," Ned said, "but we have duties now, my liege … to the realm, to our children, I to my lady wife and you to your queen. We are not the boys we were."
"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" 
"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

On the contrary, Ned laughs a lot.

Quote

"Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised.

Robert certainly remembers him laughing in their childhood

The misconception that Ned is so serious is because for all of book 1 he has his "lord's face" on since he's trying to solve murders and protect his family. Arya explains this.

Quote

She remembered hearing her lady mother tell Father to put on his lord's face and go deal with some matter. Father had laughed at that.

All his kids remember Ned laughing plenty of times.

Quote

As angry as he was, his father could not help but laugh. "You're not my son," he told Bran when they fetched him down, "you're a squirrel

Ned himself claims to laugh

Quote

He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!"

Lyanna fanatics just re-write facts and do backflips to make Lyanna the only option. She really doesn't fit at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Macgregor of the North rides again.  I couldn't agree more on both comments.  

I can see how these subjects get discussed over and over that people think that it is some type of 'bait and switch' tactic by GRRM. It doesn't really service any of the plot going forward when this story is told unless it is Lyanna. GRRM's not going to make it obvious,....that's why the comment by Roose is such a big factor.  Also, is there any evidence that Howland or Ned were good horsemen, or EVER rode in the lists?  

With of the mystery surrounding Rhaegar and Lyanna, this is their first meeting, and I believe there is a lot of weight to it.  What is the point (adding depth to the plot) of Meera's story if it is Howland or Ned???  IMO it would be no point at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

@Macgregor of the North rides again.  I couldn't agree more on both comments.  

I can see how these subjects get discussed over and over that people think that it is some type of 'bait and switch' tactic by GRRM. It doesn't really service any of the plot going forward when this story is told unless it is Lyanna. GRRM's not going to make it obvious,....that's why the comment by Roose is such a big factor.  Also, is there any evidence that Howland or Ned were good horsemen, or EVER rode in the lists?  

With of the mystery surrounding Rhaegar and Lyanna, this is their first meeting, and I believe there is a lot of weight to it.  What is the point (adding depth to the plot) of Meera's story if it is Howland or Ned???  IMO it would be no point at all.

The 'bait and switch' point is so right. This series is twenty years old now, and some of the popular mysteries have been all but solved, and nearly talked to death. So much so that some people end up convincing themselves that the solution is actually a red herring.

20 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

"Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first."

I think the bolded is slightly more than deliberate, and it's part of the same sentence that talks about Lyanna. 

Agreed. Good post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Yes it was definitely Lyanna.  There's really no other reason for all the references to her being such a good horse rider.  Jon is not a particularly good rider, so it is not to establish that connection, it must be something else.  Then there is her meeting Rhaegar.  This establishes why Rhaegar fell for her, and how they first met.

When I first read the story I thought it was Ned also, since that would explain why Howland was so loyal to Ned.  However there is no reason for Ned to hide his identity.  He is a male who was not already jousting in the tourney. 

Finally George decided to introduce us to a character named Lady Lance, a 14 year old jousting girl.  If that isn't pointing out the truth idk what is.

I agree.  There are all those references to her being such a good horse rider, including comparing her to a 'centaur,' a warrior half-horse half-human hybrid.

Independently of horse-riding, her expertise in swordsmanship is emphasized here:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Eddard Stark resumed his prayer. Bran felt his eyes fill up with tears. But were they his own tears, or the weirwood's? If I cry, will the tree begin to weep?

 

If I laugh, will the tree begin to laugh?

Quote

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches.

They're literally fighting with trees (broken branches) as weapons.

Quote

The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him.

From this description, Bran is equating the age difference between himself and Arya, with that between Benjen and Lyanna.  Despite Arya being older than Bran (and as we find out throughout the novels is a girl very talented with a sword), Bran could nevertheless always beat her at playing swords.  He is surprised to see, therefore, how this girl, Lyanna, is superior to her brother and overpowering him emphatically.  This is a demonstration by the author of how Lyanna could better a male in swordplay against all expectations.

Quote

She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.

Lyanna had a long history of exercising her sword skills on the sly.  

There's a parallel between the manner in which Lyanna and Rhaegar met, with the way Ygritte and Jon met.  In both cases, there is the pattern of a fleeing figure, who is presumed to be male, due to prejudice that assumes women cannot be fighters, only to be unveiled after capture as a woman.  Due to that selfsame prejudice, the male cannot bring himself to harm the female, so he spares her life, only to spark an interest which, together with the mutual respect that has been established one warrior to another, blossoms into something more.  

I believe Rhaegar presented Lyanna with the flowers in acknowledgement of her valor and prowess in the lists.

The only problem I have with Lyanna as the KOLT is the 'booming voice.'  That doesn't seem to fit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

In both cases, there is the pattern of a fleeing figure, who is presumed to be male, due to prejudice that assumes women cannot be fighters, only to be unveiled after capture as a woman.

What?

Ygritte was just waking up from sleeping. Where in that time does she fight anything and begin to flee? This type of re-writing of what is actually in the books vs what is used in arguments is why I literally can't take Lyanna = KotLT arguments seriously at all anymore. Maybe there's a convincing version of the theory that relies only on actual quotes from the books out there somewhere... but all versions I've seen are buried by fanfic misconceptions like the above quote...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Kienn said:

What?

Ygritte was just waking up from sleeping. Where in that time does she fight anything and begin to flee? This type of re-writing of what is actually in the books vs what is used in arguments is why I literally can't take Lyanna = KotLT arguments seriously at all anymore.

Good point. We can't be sure that Rhaegar didn't catch Lyanna napping.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...