Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Kienn]

4 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Good point. We can't be sure that Rhaegar didn't catch Lyanna napping.

Clearly.

Aerys declares he wants the KotLT caught so Lyanna stays up all night worrying about it. Then she dresses up again just for laughs and takes a nap in the woods. (Get it??? Laughs and trees. Oh man, so good)

Meanwhile, Rhaegar is confused on where to start the search for a mysterious knight that wanted some other knights to teach their squires honor... that can't mean anything so he clears his mind with a nice waltz in the woods and he stumbles upon Lyanna!

Great. Finally a convincing version.

[J. Stargaryen]

9 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Clearly.

Aerys declares he wants the KotLT caught so Lyanna stays up all night worrying about it. Then she dresses up again just for laughs and takes a nap in the woods. (Get it??? Laughs and trees. Oh man, so good)

Meanwhile, Rhaegar is confused on where to start the search for a mysterious knight that wanted some other knights to teach their squires honor... that can't mean anything so he clears his mind with a nice waltz in the woods and he stumbles upon Lyanna!

Great. Finally a convincing version.

And it clearly makes sense to disregard a series of clues because someone made a mistake about an irrelevant detail in a hypothetical parallel. You're trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

People making mistakes, or presenting bad versions of the Lyanna argument, does not change the fact that there is a good Lyanna argument.

[ravenous reader]

 

42 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Clearly.

Aerys declares he wants the KotLT caught so Lyanna stays up all night worrying about it. Then she dresses up again just for laughs and takes a nap in the woods.

Meanwhile, Rhaegar is confused on where to start the search for a mysterious knight that wanted some other knights to teach their squires honor... that can't mean anything so he clears his mind with a nice waltz in the woods too and he stumbles upon Lyanna!

Great. Finally a convincing version.

No need to be facetious.  Perhaps I overstated the case.  The guys were both charged with bringing an outlaw party to justice.  This turned out to be a woman, an unexpected twist which threw them.

42 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Then she dresses up again just for laughs and takes a nap in the woods. (Get it??? Laughs and trees.

Actually, I do 'get' it.  'Laughing'+'tree'=Bran, not Lyanna.  

[Sly Wren]

5 hours ago, Kienn said:

On the contrary, Ned laughs a lot.

Robert certainly remembers him laughing in their childhood

"Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised.

The misconception that Ned is so serious is because for all of book 1 he has his "lord's face" on since he's trying to solve murders and protect his family. Arya explains this.

She remembered hearing her lady mother tell Father to put on his lord's face and go deal with some matter. Father had laughed at that.

All his kids remember Ned laughing plenty of times.

As angry as he was, his father could not help but laugh. "You're not my son," he told Bran when they fetched him down, "you're a squirrel

Ned himself claims to laugh

He loves me. If I refuse him, he will roar and curse and bluster, and in a week we will laugh about it together. I know the man!"

Lyanna fanatics just re-write facts and do backflips to make Lyanna the only option. She really doesn't fit at all.

Well done. I, too, think Ned is a much more likely candidate.

3 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

With of the mystery surrounding Rhaegar and Lyanna, this is their first meeting, and I believe there is a lot of weight to it.

But that means you have to assume this is how they met vs. other options (rape, kidnap, etc.). Only then does this have potential weight. If this isn't how they met, the weight goes elsewhere.

3 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

 

  What is the point (adding depth to the plot) of Meera's story if it is Howland or Ned???  IMO it would be no point at all.

It helps explain Howland and Ned's loyalty to each other. Why Howland sent his children to Bran.

And the story doesn't just show the Knight as a Mystery Knight. It shows WHO the Knight defeated: three knights from houses that do dirty work for Tywin, even commit atrocities for him--a fact shown in the same novel. And now all three have a potential grudge against the Starks.

[Sly Wren]

25 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

And it clearly makes sense to disregard a series of clues because someone made a mistake about an irrelevant detail in a hypothetical parallel. You're trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

People making mistakes, or presenting bad versions of the Lyanna argument, does not change the fact that there is a good Lyanna argument.

But there are also very strong reasons to doubt the Lyanna argument. Even the good Lyanna arguments.

The novels so far have made it VERY clear that fighting well takes open, supported training. For men and for women. Both actual battle fighting and tourney fighting.

Even when Jaime makes his statement about jousting mostly being riding, he's in the process of watching Loras, an extremely well-trained fighter. And he's watching Loras practice--apparently even excellent jousters need continual practice. Plus, Jaime himself is extremely well trained and extremely talented--makes his statement seem worthy of a grain of salt.

"Lady Lance" Elia--she's been trained openly her whole life. No evidence she was ever afraid of getting found out practicing. Or deprived of necessary equipment and trainers.

What  we know about Lyanna martially: 

• She could ride well.
• She could beat her little brother at playing stick swords.
• She had enough moxie to scatter squires with a tourney sword (no indication in the scene of whether that's due to skill or badass attitude.)
• But her father forbid her from carrying a sword. 
• And she's afraid of getting caught at even playing with stick swords.

Can't see anything in there to fit what the novels have made VERY clear: to fight/joust well, one needs extensive, specialized, supported training.  If anything, it shows Lyanna was forbidden such training.

Could she be some sort of prodigy that can beat three champions without specialized training? Could she have been given training on the sly by Winterfell's master of arms? Absolutely.

But so far, nothing in the books is showing that. Seems rather to point to the opposite.

[J. Stargaryen]

9 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

snip

Your argument seems to boil down to the fact that the theory is just a theory, so I don't really see what there is to debate. I mean, sure there are reasons to doubt it. After all, it's not yet been revealed. But there are lots of clues, and Lyanna does seem to be something of a horse-riding prodigy. And Jamie thinks that horse-riding is the largest part of jousting, etc.

I'm genuinely mystified as to how someone could claim that the books are showing the opposite possibility of Lyanna-as-the-KotLT. I mean, how do you suppose that so many people organically came to that conclusion?

[siyxx]

I always thought it's either Howland or Lyanna (I put a heavier bet on the latter one). She fitted the description, and it created a somewhat powerful first-meet scene between her and Rhaegar. 

But if it's really Lyanna, can someone explain about the booming voice thing? I don't have the book with me to quote, but IIRC the Knight of The Laughing Tree has a booming voice that echoed in his helm...the way it's described makes me think of a deep male's bass voice, so how could Lyanna do that? Or was it because of the helm that made the sound came out like that in the first place?  

[Kienn]

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

there is a good Lyanna argument.

Not really. The only positive connection Lyanna has is Jaime's quote to almost connect her riding skill to jousting skill. This is undercut by every other example of jousters in the series, good(Loras, Robb, Jaime himself) and bad(Dunk).

Against that Ned has a direct and repeated connection by the booming voice clue without any real detractions.

The rest of the "best" Lyanna theories are a quick dismissal of Ned based on misconceptions(he is short, he does laugh, and there are many potential reasons he would have entered as a mystery knight) and then fanfictions about why her being KotLT fits "narratively" with the rest of R+L=J.

I can come up with multiple "narrative" reasons for Ned being KotLT adding to the story.

For example: if Ned was KotLT with Bobby B as an accomplice (Bobby supplies one of his "huge" destriers, dwarfing Ned and accentuating his short stature) it gives a reason for Aerys to call for their heads after killing Brandon and Rickard. This provides momentum for the start of the war and it adds to Ned's character because he now has to deal with the guilt of unintentionally triggering the war that killed so much of his family (explaining why he is cautious and somber later in his life in GoT) and partially mirroring what Catelyn does in GoT. It can also provide a bookending device for the war. Perhaps Howland "saved" Ned's life by challenging Arthur Dayne to a 1v1 joust, Ned vs Arthur to settle the matter after the others had fallen in combat. Ned would have been unable to defeat Arthur by sword, but he may win by joust. In this way the the KotLT ends the war as he began it.

I have no evidence for this fanfiction other than it being a plausible series of events, but I personally find it far more compelling than any of the Lyanna as KotLT fanfics.

[J. Stargaryen]

2 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Not really.

Okay. Nice chattin' with you.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Quote

a booming voice that echoed in his helm...the way it's described makes me think of a deep male's bass voice, so how could Lyanna do that?

From inside a helm, you can make your voice boom, is what has been theorised and explored. Some fans even tried it out and made a podcast. Now where was that? Somewhere on http://radiowesteros.com ?

[Kienn]

3 minutes ago, Jon Weirgaryen said:

From inside a helm, you can make your voice boom, is what has been theorised and explored. Some fans even tried it out and made a podcast. Now where was that? Somewhere on http://radiowesteros.com ?

Here is another female fighter in a helm:

Quote

The blue knight knelt before the king. "Grace," he said, his voice muffled by his dented greathelm.

 

Okay. Nice chattin' with you.

 

You too.

[Macgregor of the North]

It's a shame when you see a thread like this that can't shed anything new on the matter apart from what each group of believers to be the nods and clues that have been laid before us years ago. 

Whats even sadder is when people start becoming smart ass and arrogant about it. @Kienn, what will you do if it is confirmed Lyanna was the KotLt? Would you perhaps look at your own interpretations of other things in the books? Maybe it could then be said about your own line of thought that indeed 'you' are the one who is re-writing things? 

I wouldn't be so all guns blazing about debunking people's theories when you most certainly dont have the correct recipe yourself, none of us do. 

You believe it's Ned, fair enough, others believe it's Lyanna. Let's wait for TWOW and our boy wonder Bran to decide it for us all when he slips the Weirwood to the Tourney Era.

And @ravenous reader, I get exactly where you are heading with the Laughing tree Bran thing, I'm pulling for that to happen big time! 

I have the awesome @Little Scribe of Naath to thank for pointing out that possibility the first time.

[Kienn]

17 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Maybe it could then be said about your own line of thought that indeed 'you' are the one who is re-writing things? 

Not really. Other than the thing I said upfront was fanfic - to match the Lyanna fanfic - all my opinions are based on specific quotes. I'm not writing anything, if my interpretation ends up incorrect that doesn't change the fact that I was using quotes, not fanfic. If you want to say I'm re-writing things you should be able to do it now, using quotes available now.

17 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

what will you do if it is confirmed Lyanna was the KotLt?

I'd be mildly surprised. Personally I'd put likelihoods at 85% Ned, 10% Lyanna, 5% Howland-Bran. It's certainly possible that GRRM included the booming voice completely on accident. I just don't think that is the type of mistake he makes.

17 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I wouldn't be so all guns blazing about debunking people's theories when you most certainly dont have the correct recipe yourself, none of us do. 

Why discuss things at all then?

[Macgregor of the North]

@Sly Wren @Kienn

In regards to Howlands Loyalty to Ned, according to the app, Lyannas entry.

It clearly states that Lyanna chasing off the three squires, and taking him back to her tent where the Stark's were and tending to his wounds is what engendered Howlands loyalty to House Stark. 

Put this alongside the 'theory' that Howland became so loyal to Ned because Ned is tKotlt.

Now we can call these semi canon etc but they are from GRRM's own notes and if there is nothing to contradict it in the books, it's the best thing to go with id say. 

Also, on Lyannas apparent lack of Tourney experience and training, it appears in GRRMS world it's not needed if you have sheer determination and can at least fight. Ask Jorah.

"I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel."

Not even Jaime Lannister could knock the man down in nine tries. Now add to this the fact that Lyanna can also ride like she is half a horse herself, and to be a good jouster, you must be a good horsemen(women).

 

[Macgregor of the North]

4 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Not really. Other than the thing I said upfront was fanfic - to match the Lyanna fanfic - all my opinions are based on specific quotes. I'm not writing anything, if my interpretation ends up incorrect that doesn't change the fact that I was using quotes, not fanfic. If you want to say I'm re-writing things you should be able to do it now, using quotes available now.

I'd be mildly surprised. Personally I'd put likelihoods at 85% Ned, 10% Lyanna, 5% Howland-Bran. It's certainly possible that GRRM included the booming voice completely on accident. I just don't think that is the type of mistake he makes.

Why discuss things at all then?

Your idea of discussing seems to be throwing flames on other peoples ideas because you disagree, that's not discussing really is it?

[Kienn]

1 minute ago, Macgregor of the North said:

"I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel."

Not even Jaime Lannister could knock the man down in nine tries. Now add to this the fact that Lyanna can also ride like she is half a horse herself, and to be a good jouster, you must be a good horsemen(women).

This actually works against Jaime's own statement. Why trust Jaime's opinion on what makes a good jouster when we haven't even seen him ever win a tournament?

Also Jorah wasn't saying that he never trained at jousting, simply that he didn't regularly attend tourneys as a "tourney knight" would. He was at that tourney because it was at the conclusion of the Greyjoy rebellion. He was there, so he participated. 

[Kienn]

2 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Your idea of discussing seems to be throwing flames on other peoples ideas because you disagree, that's not discussing really is it?

If asking people to back up claims with quotes is "throwing flames", then yes I do still consider it a discussion.

Is it a discussion to resort to personal attacks like "smart ass" and "arrogant"?

Attack ideas, not people.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Let us please rule out any practical possibility of Howland-Bran. That should have 0.001% possibility.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 minutes ago, Kienn said:

 

Oops my quoting is weird. 

Infact Jorah says he was never a tourney Knight. 

And what say you on why Howland stayed ever loyal to House Stark? Isn't the fact that their his overlord, and that Lyanna, Neds sister, was so awesome to him a better explanation than Ned being the KotLt? 

 

[Kienn]

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Let us please rule out any practical possibility of Howland-Bran. That should have 0.001% possibility.

I mean, if GRRM can pull it off in a believable way then maybe it's cool... but yes that type of ability just opens too many doors in any scenario I can imagine personally.