Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Sly Wren]

10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Your argument seems to boil down to the fact that the theory is just a theory, so I don't really see what there is to debate. I mean, sure there are reasons to doubt it. After all, it's not yet been revealed. But there are lots of clues, and Lyanna does seem to be something of a horse-riding prodigy. And Jamie thinks that horse-riding is the largest part of jousting, etc.

Right--but Jaime says that while watching people train. Even extraordinary riders like Loras NEED training. And Brandon, also half a centaur, even with all of his training, is still defeated at Harrenhal. 

Clearly, as important as riding is, jousting still requires open, specialized, and extensive training. Especially to beat three champions.

10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I'm genuinely mystified as to how someone could claim that the books are showing the opposite possibility of Lyanna-as-the-KotLT. I mean, how do you suppose that so many people organically came to that conclusion?

Well, a lot of people have come organically to ideas that may or may not be true in these novels.

As for showing the opposite: one way or another, the novels show again and again that fighting takes training. That seems like a strong clue against Lyanna. As I said above, she may turn out to be some sort of savant. But given what the books say about fighters, seems like they are telling us to be wary of such an idea.

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

This is not true, Ser Quentyn ball won a jousting tourny without ever having jousted before.

I couldn't find this in the novellas. By any chance do you have the quote?

Only found that he was ended up being Master at Arms at the Red Keep. Which makes it sound like he was a VERY well trained fighter.

Also, just because fighters have never jousted in a tourney before does not mean they weren't trained for it: Robb, Jon, and Theon are none of them tourney knights. But they've all been trained. For years. 

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

I get what your saying here, but we do have the character Lady Lance, a 14 year old girl who we know for a fact jousts, so in terms of that we have to suspend realism.

 

18 minutes ago, Free folk Daemon said:

I agree. The fact Lyanna was born in 266 or 267AC and the Harrenhal tourney was in 281AC would make her 14 or 15 at the time of the tourney, around the same age as Lady Lance, who is jousting at 14 years old. It would be a huge coincidence, in my humble opinion anyway, if their ages and interests are not somehow linked.

But Lady Lance has been actively, openly trained all her life. She has no compunctions about discussing her prowess. And we know Oberyn trained his girls.

Same with Brienne--trained by her father.

Lyanna has not--she was not allowed to carry a sword and was afraid of getting caught playing with sticks. That's not a kid who can openly train with specialized fighters. That's not a kid who's been supported in her martial pursuits, as Brienne and "Lady Lance" are supported. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

33 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I couldn't find this in the novellas. By any chance do you have the quote?

Only found that he was ended up being Master at Arms at the Red Keep. Which makes it sound like he was a VERY well trained fighter.

Also, just because fighters have never jousted in a tourney before does not mean they weren't trained for it: Robb, Jon, and Theon are none of them tourney knights. But they've all been trained. For years. 

It's the plot of the Mystery Knight.  I might have gotten his first name wrong, I thought his name was Quentyn Ball, the guy who claimed to be Fireballs son.  Fireball is the guy who was Master at Arms of the Red Keep so if I used his name that was my mistake.

He has never formally jousted before then, only rode at rings using knights horses and lances when they stopped at the pussywillows(The whorehouse he lived at).  He doesn't even have a breastplate, and Dunk comments in his head that a single solid blow to the chest will kill him, he beats Daemon Blackfyre in the final joust, having never taken a solid blow to the chest.

Edit: Obviously those knights expected him to just put their hoses in the stable and would've been extremely angry if they found out he practiced using their equipment, I think that is very similar to Lyanna having to hide any training she did from her father.

[sweetsunray]

10 hours ago, Kienn said:

Here is another female fighter in a helm:

Quote

The blue knight knelt before the king. "Grace," he said, his voice muffled by his dented greathelm.

What is the major difference between Brienne and Lyanna, aside from height? Brienne's shy and hardly ever talks much. Lyanna is much bolder and does not seem to be shy or awkward about making herself heard. Hence, Brienne's voice is muffled inside the greathelm, whereas Lyanna's can boom.

[Sly Wren]

21 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

It's the plot of the Mystery Knight.  I might have gotten his first name wrong, I thought his name was Quentyn Ball, the guy who claimed to be Fireballs son.  Fireball is the guy who was Master at Arms of the Red Keep so if I used his name that was my mistake.

Ah! Got it.

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He has never formally jousted before then, only rode at rings using knights horses and lances when they stopped at the pussywillows(The whorehouse he lived at).  He doesn't even have a breastplate, and Dunk comments in his head that a single solid blow to the chest will kill him, he beats Daemon Blackfyre in the final joust, having never taken a solid blow to the chest.

Right--but he did get some training: 

Quote

"Oh, that much is true. The boy and his sister grew up in a brothel, called the Pussywillows. After Penny Jenny died, the other whores took care of them and fed the lad the tale his mother had concocted, about him being Fireball's seed. An old squire who lived nearby gave the boy his training, such that it was, in trade for ale and cunt, but being but a squire he could not knight the little bastard. Half a year ago, however, a party of knights chanced upon the brothel and a certain Ser Morgan Dunstable took a drunken fancy to Ser Glendon's sister. As it happens, the sister was still a virgin and Dunstable did not have the price of her maidenhead. So a bargain was struck. Ser Morgan clubbed her brother a knight, right there in the Pussywillows in front of twenty witnesses, and afterwards little sister took him upstairs and let him pluck her flower. And there you are." The Mystery Knight.

Not a glamorous story, by any means. But he was practicing with someone who did have training. And practiced for years.

 

Quote

Edit: Obviously those knights expected him to just put their hoses in the stable and would've been extremely angry if they found out he practiced using their equipment, I think that is very similar to Lyanna having to hide any training she did from her father.

But Lyanna, tough as she is, is afraid of being caught playing at sticks in the godswood.

To get close to Glendon Flowers' ability, she'd also have to have someone willing to train her. For years. And not be worried about being spotted or reported in the training yard--in a castle where  the family knew she wasn't allowed to have a sword.

Glendon wasn't hiding during his training. It's well known--openly trained. But Lyanna would have had to have some sort of trainer and years of practice in that practice yard--all while keeping it hidden from the High Lord who (presumably) was paying this clandestine trainer. ETA: Which would give any potential trainer great reason to NOT train her.

So far, nothing in the novels suggests such a thing. If anything, her fear of being caught with sticks in the godswood suggests that even wolf blooded Lyanna wouldn't have practiced in the yard.

And that even she didn't have the nerve to steal real or even tourney swords for her play time with Benjen.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Lyanna was afraid of getting caught by old Nan when she was playing with sticks--she has not been trained, encouraged to train, or supported--as all other fighters, male or female, we've seen in the novels have. 

Lyanna wasn't at WF all the time. Her eldest brother Brandon was fostered at Lord Dustin's Barrowhal and spent a lot of his timing the Rills, and the way Lady Barbrey Dustin tells it, Lyanna often rode with Brandon. Lady Barbrey was a Ryswell of the Rills who would know something of horseriding, since her father bred horses. She compares both as a "pair of centaurs". That implies she often saw them ride both. One of the reasons Brandon rode the Rills (away from Barrowton and Barrowhall where he was fostered) was to visit Barbrey. But taking your sister along such visits would be an inconvenience if it was solely for Barbrey. So, why did Lyanna and Brandon ride often together in the Rills?

Brandon Stark was called a good jouster. Lyanna plays at stickfighting with Benjen at WF, but so often away riding together with Brandon what are the chances that she challenged him into lancing where Lord Rickard could never find out? Brandon seems to have liked, loved and indulged his sister. And if she was such a good rider, he might have even liked the challenge, certainly if she was any good at it.

Lord Rickard can't begrudge his daughter a visit to her fostered brother at the Barrows. Nobody can begrudge Brandon to ride off with his sister alone at the Rills. And nobody is there to witness them jousting. So, while there is no evidence that Lyanna and Brandon actually trained jousting with each other, you cannot claim Lyanna never had the opportunity to train it. 

It would all depend on Brandon's willingness and attitude. Lyanna introduced HR to the Wild Wolf, and Brandon was helpful enough to ask Ashara to dance with his shy brother Ned. And he does not seem particularly sexist about racing horse with his sister in the Rills.

[OwloftheRainwood]

26 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

 

But Lady Lance has been actively, openly trained all her life. She has no compunctions about discussing her prowess. And we know Oberyn trained his girls.

Same with Brienne--trained by her father.

Lyanna has not--she was not allowed to carry a sword and was afraid of getting caught playing with sticks. That's not a kid who can openly train with specialized fighters. That's not a kid who's been supported in her martial pursuits, as Brienne and "Lady Lance" are supported. 

I think this lack of formal training and the "booming voice" are the biggest problems for LS = KoLT. It's possible Lyanna was able to beat three knights in her first jousts without formal training. It seems implausible. I will say it would be interesting if that is how Lyanna and Rhaegar connect after Aerys demands the KoLT be unmasked. It seems less textually supported than strongly desired by a segment of fans, part of me wants LS = KoLT to be true too. Textual evidence of Ned's booming voice and Lyanna's lack of training make me lean in Ned's direction. The Reeds' surprise that Ned never told Bran the story is also telling. I could be wrong, but Ned seems more likely. 

[wolfmaid7]

Nothing is definite and where we may think the story is heading or what we may think is the story might not neccessarily be so. That being said i like Lyanna for TKOTLT because eye-balling it we get  Bran's vision of her "playing at swords with Benjen" what she did for Howland and her horsemanship.Mind and eye will automatically go to these as connecting patterns,but if i'm honest about this some things bother me.

Lyanna had to hide and practice at swords with her little brother...Her little brother.She had no training and i very much "ALL" that is needed to be a good Jouster is being a good rider,which Lyanna could have done openly all day if she wanted to without anyone giving her gripe about it.

Would Rickard have allowed Lyanna to engage in lance training? I don't think so .So if she did hide like she did for sword play ,would that be enough to give her the strength and percision to engage 3 squires who would have been practicing at this themeslevs for how ever long they were

I agree with @Sly Wren on the context for which Jamie and others were speaking.They are speaking about people who have trained extensively and for years with experianced teachers.

Sometimes its the little things ,so now  there is Ned who had Howland with him when her found Lyanna,who had Howland with him when he went to Dorne.It could simple be Ned did something for Howland that warrented that loyalty?

The knight had a booming voice something we hear repeatedly from Ned and Jon as something Arryn instilled in Ned and Robert while they were in the Vale.

The laughing Weirwood tree....I mean even if no one didn't know who the Knight was the first person i would look for are the people who hold such trees sacred.I mean the first people i would look at is the Starks.

I'll fitting clothes can apply to Ned as well.He sure as hell wasn't taking part in anything at the Tourney,so he probably had to improvise a bit.

Logistics favor Ned,but if GRRM wants to go with a girl who while a great horsewoman,determined; yet, she had to hide to even play at swords i don't know.It just seems when you look at it closely the likelihood of it being Lyanna isn't a certainty.

 

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

She had no training

Such a claim cannot be made. All that can be said is that we do not have evidence that Lyanna trained on lance. But you cannot positive claim she was untrained. IF (and I do say IF) Brandon Stark was willing, then Lyanna had opportunity enough to train with Brandon in the Rills where they were often seen riding together, with neither Brandon's foster father nor Lord Rickard Stark knowing any better.

[Prince of the North]

8 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

I think this lack of formal training and the "booming voice" are the biggest problems for LS = KoLT. It's possible Lyanna was able to beat three knights in her first jousts without formal training. It seems implausible. I will say it would be interesting if that is how Lyanna and Rhaegar connect after Aerys demands the KoLT be unmasked. It seems less textually supported than strongly desired by a segment of fans, part of me wants LS = KoLT to be true too. Textual evidence of Ned's booming voice and Lyanna's lack of training make me lean in Ned's direction. The Reeds' surprise that Ned never told Bran the story is also telling. I could be wrong, but Ned seems more likely. 

Well, as to the "lack of formal training" - how do we know Lyanna never had any "formal" training?  What is "formal" training anyway?  If her oldest brother, Brandon, humored her a bit and gave her some pointers/training, would that constitute "formal" training?  My point is, we don't know for certain one way or the other.  Also, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  

What we do know, for a fact, is that Lyanna defeated/chased off three squires at the same time with nothing but a blunted practice sword.  And, of course, squires do have some "formal training" with swords, other weapons, and fighting in general.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

23 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

I think this lack of formal training and the "booming voice" are the biggest problems for LS = KoLT. It's possible Lyanna was able to beat three knights in her first jousts without formal training. It seems implausible. I will say it would be interesting if that is how Lyanna and Rhaegar connect after Aerys demands the KoLT be unmasked. It seems less textually supported than strongly desired by a segment of fans, part of me wants LS = KoLT to be true too. Textual evidence of Ned's booming voice and Lyanna's lack of training make me lean in Ned's direction.

Actually, Ned's voice never "boomed". Bob, certainly. Greatjon Umber. Lyle Crakehall. Wyman Manderly. Strong Belwas. Ned, however, never. So it can't be a point in his favor.

[wolfmaid7]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

Such a claim cannot be made. All that can be said is that we do not have evidence that Lyanna trained on lance. But you cannot positive claim she was untrained. IF (and I do say IF) Brandon Stark was willing, then Lyanna had opportunity enough to train with Brandon in the Rills where they were often seen riding together, with neither Brandon's foster father nor Lord Rickard Stark knowing any better.

Given what we know ,yes that claim can be made. There are so many "ifs" we can spend all they on them."If" Brandon said ok sis i'll teach you.I'll come back with if" it did happen why didn't Barbery mention seeing Brandon and Lyanna taking 4-9ft Lances to the rills?Then you would come back with, maybe on one occasion they took it ;Barbery didn't see and they stored it somewhere near the strems so they didn't have to transport them back and forth each time they went  there.I'd hit back and no one not Barbery happen to see Brandon and his sister practicing .All of which will end with me saying at one point probably they weren't jousting " there in them rills"

So alot of ifs and nothing to tell us that those "ifs" might have happened.It would be nice if we had some indication that when they went riding that is what they were doing.

[OwloftheRainwood]

3 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Actually, Ned's voice never "boomed". Bob, certainly. Greatjon Umber. Lyle Crakehall. Wyman Manderly. Strong Belwas. Ned, however, never. So it can't be a point in his favor.

You need a booming voice to command men in combat. Both Jon and Ned POVs allude to Jon Arryn teaching Robert and Ned to use a booming voice for purposes of command. So yes, it is a valid point in his favor. Bare in mind that I said this argument could go either way. My mind is not made up until we know more, if we ever do.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Just now, OwloftheRainwood said:

You need a booming voice to command men in combat. Both Jon and Ned POVs allude to Jon Arryn teaching Robert and Ned to use a booming voice for purposes of command.

No. You just need a loud voice for that. And as long as it's heard, it could be even a soprano. And Ned was never mentioned using a "booming voice", or being taught a "booming voice", or teaching his sons a "booming voice".

[Kienn]

4 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

No. You just need a loud voice for that. And as long as it's heard, it could be even a soprano. And Ned was never mentioned using a "booming voice", or being taught a "booming voice", or teaching his sons a "booming voice".

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Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. "STOP THIS MADNESS," he boomed, "IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!"

Jon mentions himself and Robb training under Ned's direction as well.

[OwloftheRainwood]

15 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Well, as to the "lack of formal training" - how do we know Lyanna never had any "formal" training?  What is "formal" training anyway?  If her oldest brother, Brandon, humored her a bit and gave her some pointers/training, would that constitute "formal" training?  My point is, we don't know for certain one way or the other.  Also, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.  

What we do know, for a fact, is that Lyanna defeated/chased off three squires at the same time with nothing but a blunted practice sword.  And, of course, squires do have some "formal training" with swords, other weapons, and fighting in general.

Rickard Stark forbade his daughter from carrying a blade, so I find it incredibly unlikely that he was like the Red Viper or Lord Tarth who openly allowed their daughters to train. We know Lyanna is good at beating her little brother with sticks and beating squires who had good reason not to fight back against her, daughter of the most powerful lord in the North. As I've said multiple times - I could be wrong and I appreciate the narrative if it turns out either way. 

[sweetsunray]

16 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Given what we know ,yes that claim can be made. There are so many "ifs" we can spend all they on them."If" Brandon said ok sis i'll teach you.I'll come back with if" it did happen why didn't Barbery mention seeing Brandon and Lyanna taking 4-9ft Lances to the rills?Then you would come back with, maybe on one occasion they took it ;Barbery didn't see and they stored it somewhere near the strems so they didn't have to transport them back and forth each time they went  there.I'd hit back and no one not Barbery happen to see Brandon and his sister practicing .All of which will end with me saying at one point probably they weren't jousting " there in them rills"

So alot of ifs and nothing to tell us that those "ifs" might have happened.It would be nice if we had some indication that when they went riding that is what they were doing.

No, you can't make a positive claim about something you have no evidence on whatsoever.

You cannot claim that Lyanna was at WF all the time. We know she was not.

All it takes is Bran seeing Brandon and Lyanna practice somewhere between Ryswell home and Barrowton in a vision and you're done talking. And that's all I'm pointing out. My point about the IF-case is not to argue that was actually the case. But it's enough for me to show that there is room for George to insert it. We know too little of Brandon and Lyanna as brother and sister to say "no, absolutely not" and "yes, certainly". We do know they were often seen riding the Rills together, and they could have only gotten there starting out from Barrowton. Many miles between Barrowton and Barbrey's birth home.

[Prince of the North]

Just now, OwloftheRainwood said:

Rickard Stark forbade his daughter from carrying a blade, so I find it incredibly unlikely that he was like the Red Viper or Lord Tarth who openly allowed their daughters to train. We know Lyanna is good at beating her little brother with sticks and beating squires who had good reason not to fight back against her, daughter of the most powerful lord in the North. As I've said multiple times - I could be wrong and I appreciate the narrative if it turns out either way. 

Agreed that Rickard Stark forbade his daughter from carrying a blade.  But that in no way proves that she never received any training, "formal" or otherwise, in the use of a blade...or any other weapons for that matter.  My point remains that we simply don't yet have enough info to say one way or the other.  

[OwloftheRainwood]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, you can't make a positive claim about something you have no evidence on whatsoever.

You cannot claim that Lyanna was at WF all the time. We know she was not.

All it takes is Bran seeing Brandon and Lyanna practice somewhere between Ryswell home and Barrowton and you're done talking. And that's all I'm pointig out.

We do have evidence, per Ned's POV: "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it." Weird how you assert one can't make a positive claim without evidence, then you do literally the same thing.