Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[sweetsunray]

18 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I’d be interested to know about the reference of the cat in the box. I gave my cat a small box lined  with tissue paper, like the stuff that is stuffed in gift bags and shite and the bugger goes and sits in it whenever he has been rambunctious. Cracks me up! It is like he thinks he is invisible while he is sitting in that box.

 

Schrodinger's cat:

One can even set up quite ridiculous cases. A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter, there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small, that perhaps in the course of the hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer that shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The first atomic decay would have poisoned it. The psi-function of the entire system would express this by having in it the living and dead cat (pardon the expression) mixed or smeared out in equal parts.

It is typical of these cases that an indeterminacy originally restricted to the atomic domain becomes transformed into macroscopic indeterminacy, which can then be resolved by direct observation. That prevents us from so naively accepting as valid a "blurred model" for representing reality. In itself, it would not embody anything unclear or contradictory. There is a difference between a shaky or out-of-focus photograph and a snapshot of clouds and fog banks.

— Erwin Schrödinger, Die gegenwärtige Situation in der Quantenmechanik (The present situation in quantum mechanics), Naturwissenschaften
(translated by John D. Trimmer in Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society)

Quantum Physics is about probabilities. If you know a particle's speed you don't know its location (Heisenberger principle), or vice versa. But you can calculate probabilites. Schrödinger enlarged that principle on the physical level of everyday size to illustrate it, and in his theoretical experiment (because of probability of decay fo the radioactive matter), the cat is both dead and alive in the box, until you opened it and looked in the box.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Lyanna wasn't at WF all the time. Her eldest brother Brandon was fostered at Lord Dustin's Barrowhal and spent a lot of his timing the Rills, and the way Lady Barbrey Dustin tells it, Lyanna often rode with Brandon. Lady Barbrey was a Ryswell of the Rills who would know something of horseriding, since her father bred horses. She compares both as a "pair of centaurs". That implies she often saw them ride both. One of the reasons Brandon rode the Rills (away from Barrowton and Barrowhall where he was fostered) was to visit Barbrey. But taking your sister along such visits would be an inconvenience if it was solely for Barbrey. So, why did Lyanna and Brandon ride often together in the Rills?

Brandon Stark was called a good jouster. Lyanna plays at stickfighting with Benjen at WF, but so often away riding together with Brandon what are the chances that she challenged him into lancing where Lord Rickard could never find out? Brandon seems to have liked, loved and indulged his sister. And if she was such a good rider, he might have even liked the challenge, certainly if she was any good at it.

Lord Rickard can't begrudge his daughter a visit to her fostered brother at the Barrows. Nobody can begrudge Brandon to ride off with his sister alone at the Rills. And nobody is there to witness them jousting. So, while there is no evidence that Lyanna and Brandon actually trained jousting with each other, you cannot claim Lyanna never had the opportunity to train it. 

It would all depend on Brandon's willingness and attitude. Lyanna introduced HR to the Wild Wolf, and Brandon was helpful enough to ask Ashara to dance with his shy brother Ned. And he does not seem particularly sexist about racing horse with his sister in the Rills.

Agreed--it's possible. But so far in the novels, it really seems like it takes years of relatively steady training to get good at this, not just whatever spotty training she and Brandon could pull off.

We know Ned's willing to help Arya. And we know Benjen will play at sticks. But can't think of where we've got enough on Brandon to know his take. Besides, playing at sticks with Lyanna is a far cry from jousting training.

So far, the last thing we're shown of Lyanna is her being afraid of caught playing with sticks. That's the image Martin chooses to show us, confirming she's like Arya. And Arya needed specialized training to get good with a sword specially made for her size. 

Martin could surprise us--which would be cool. And he hasn't shut the door on Lyanna's being the knight. But it also seems like he's also steering us away from it with that image of Lyanna in the godswood. And with what he's told us of other fighters.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

If Rickard didn't know, he coudln't forbid it either.

 

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Considering that her first appearance in the Harrenhal story was with a (blunt) sword in her hand, I gather that Lyanna disregarded her lord father's ban.

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Also, Ned's statement implies Lyana was good enough with sword, despite her father's ban. Being able to carry sword means you know how to use one. Ned's statement does not say Lyanna was not any good at swords, just that Rickard would not have allowed her carrying swords if he ever found out.

Just one word: wilful. I yet have to see a wilful person not doing what they want just because their father forbade it. 

As pointed out above, Lyanna being the KotLT is the only option that connects the various dots about jousting, horsemanship, the spoilery TWOW character, secret training and unsupervised rides with her elder brother. If KotLT is not Lyanna, then why the hell GRRM bothered to include these, for shits and giggles?

[Clegane'sPup]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Schrodinger's cat:

One can even set up quite ridiculous cases. A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter, there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small, that perhaps in the course of the hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer that shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The first atomic decay would have poisoned it. The psi-function of the entire system would express this by having in it the living and dead cat (pardon the expression) mixed or smeared out in equal parts.

It is typical of these cases that an indeterminacy originally restricted to the atomic domain becomes transformed into macroscopic indeterminacy, which can then be resolved by direct observation. That prevents us from so naively accepting as valid a "blurred model" for representing reality. In itself, it would not embody anything unclear or contradictory. There is a difference between a shaky or out-of-focus photograph and a snapshot of clouds and fog banks.

— Erwin Schrödinger, Die gegenwärtige Situation in der Quantenmechanik (The present situation in quantum mechanics), Naturwissenschaften
(translated by John D. Trimmer in Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society)

 

Great day! That is way above my pay grade. Now I that I feel like my cat when he sits in his cardboard box surrounded by tissue paper. Argh haha you ain't ignoring me after all.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

The above argument is intellectually dishonest. I do not say that the evidence is that they "could" or that we "could" get a weirwood vision. You claiming that I proposed that we "could have" as evidence if completely FALSE, and totally miscromprehends my point.

What is dishonest about my statement? That's a you trying to hit me "a 4 for a 6 statement" Sweets. Why bring up "If Brandon could have  taught her and "we at sometime in the future might get a Weirwood vision on them training."

Help me understand what was the point of going there.I thought we were talking about what was actually there to look at?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Kienn said:

1 - He's shy. He doesn't want the attention of being a great jouster.

2 - He doesn't want to shame his elder brother and future Lord by showing him up in the lists.

3 - He wasn't planning on jousting at the tourney so he didn't bring his armor - see Baelor Breakspear in "The Hedge Knight". Without a full set available he had to make do with pieces cobbled together from friends.

4 - Any other unknown reason. As someone else has said - absence of evidence of a reason for Ned is not evidence of absence of a reason.

1: so terribly shy that he would do something duplicitous, and also openly defy a royal order, just so he could hide his face? That seems as a very different Ned that the one we know.

2: again, not good enough a reason. Even if we accept the premise that Ned doing well in the lists somehow shames Brandon (and I actually don't), then, again, the Ned we know would come to a conclusion that in that case, Brandon deserved to be shamed. The man firmly believed in playing by the rules, and should anyone (up to including his best friend and king) got his feelings hurt in the process, then so be it.

3: OK, so he didn't have his own armor. If he couldn't buy one on the spot, he'd have to borrow one. And Ned Stark, son of the Warden of the North, ward of the Warden of the East, best friend of Lord of Storm's End, would have no problem whatsoever finding someone willing to grant him that favor. A complete set, correct size, even in his favorite color, if he wanted. But the Knight of the Laughing Tree showed up clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. Seems that if he had "borrowed", then from several different people, maybe not always asking for their permission. Maybe had gone on a scavenger hunt in some armorers' workshops. Again, I don't see Ned Stark doing that.

[Sly Wren]

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

All due respect, but this sure looks like a case of missing the forest for the trees. It appears to me that you're focusing on this one detail from this one example, and ignoring the bigger picture which connects Lyanna, horsemanship and jousting.

No, the books connect Lyanna to horsemanship and sword fighting.

Where do we see her or Arya long to joust? I looked but couldn't find it--do you have anything like that?

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Brandon losing to arguably the best jouster in the 7K at the time doesn't seem like much of an argument, since the KotLT didn't square off against a jouster of Rhaegar's (or Barristan's, or Arthur's) skill.

Right--but the Knight defeated three champions. In a row. That's a LOT of beginner's luck. And insane "untrained" luck. Not impossible, as I said. But seems like Martin keeps telling us about the training of fighters for a reason.

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

From what I see it seems like you're really trying to sell this idea about "open" training, but I'm not buying. Especially since we know that Lyanna would resort to secret training if she really wanted to, as she did with "swords."

Well, can you think of a successful fighter in the novels that does well without training? Or open training? Brienne's awesome--and well trained. Oberyn's kids are trained. I can't think of a character that defeats three champions without training--can you?

And on the bolded: again, we see her being like Arya. We're told that she, like Arya, wanted a sword. Shown she wanted one. Any evidence she wanted a lance (she said, fully realizing Freud would giggle at that set-up)?

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Right, but how often do the books seem to show the "opposite" of the most popular theory? Maybe I'm making too much out of the use of the word opposite, but to me it looks like you're arguing that the majority of the people who have opinions on this got completely turned around somehow.

Well, not sure how on earth to check for this--take a poll on how many people have been wrong re: certain things? I

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

To look at it another way-- in your opinion, to what end has GRRM written:

• that horse riding is most important part of jousting
• that Lyanna was a great rider

YUP! An excellent laying out of the case.

Would also note: Arya, too, is a great rider. Arya, too, is interested in swords. Arya is specifically compared to Lyanna on these points. By more than one person.

And neither Arya nor Lyanna is shown to have any interest in learning to joust.

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

 

• given her a starring role in the KotLT story
• given her the best motive for being that mystery knight

To me these are all parts of a greater whole, a bigger picture.

Yes--but multiple people have starring roles--all of the wolves and Howland, for instance. As for the motive--why doesn't Howland have the "best "motive? Or Ned, since Howland is sleeping in Ned's tent around the time he prays? 

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I think this has already been well addressed by others, re: absence of evidence.

I fully agree it's possible.

Just seems like we're also being told it's not likely. Or necessary. 

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--it's possible. But so far in the novels, it really seems like it takes years of relatively steady training to get good at this, not just whatever spotty training she and Brandon could pull off.

We know Ned's willing to help Arya. And we know Benjen will play at sticks. But can't think of where we've got enough on Brandon to know his take. Besides, playing at sticks with Lyanna is a far cry from jousting training.

So far, the last thing we're shown of Lyanna is her being afraid of caught playing with sticks. That's the image Martin chooses to show us, confirming she's like Arya. And Arya needed specialized training to get good with a sword specially made for her size. 

Martin could surprise us--which would be cool. And he hasn't shut the door on Lyanna's being the knight. But it also seems like he's also steering us away from it with that image of Lyanna in the godswood. And with what he's told us of other fighters.

I don't think he's steering us away. Because it could also be interpreted as "she trained in secret at sword play with sticks with Benjen, so what did she train at with Brandon?"

We know that Brandon raced with Lyanna. Personally, the mention of them riding like a pair of centaurs, calls forth this image of them competing with one another at horse riding. And in that sense I can see the possibility of the competition extending as far as "let's see what you can do with a stick on horseback", which would start at poking it through a ring hanging from a tree, and gradually expanding.

aGoT gives us this impression that Ned and Lyanna were close. That's because he's the sole Stark brother we have a POV about and because he thinks of her often. The truth is that they could not be all that close, since he was in the Vale. And then in aDwD we get references for Lyanna's horse riding together with Brandon. It surprised me the first time I read it, because it actually creates a picture of Brandon and Lyanna being close. 

And it would put Brandon's choice to challenge Rhaegar at the Red Keep in a slightly different light. Where initially he seems the most distant brother and we assume he'd be more like Rickard, he seems to have had his own personal bond with Lyanna. And if Lyanna was the sole horserider in the North to match him, then imo this might have motivated him to compete with her at jousting tricks.  

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What is dishonest about my statement? That's a you trying to hit me "a 4 for a 6 statement" Sweets. Why bring up "If Brandon could have  taught her and "we at sometime in the future might get a Weirwood vision on them training."

Help me understand what was the point of going there.I thought we were talking about what was actually there to look at?

Devil's advocate.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Great day! That is way above my pay grade. Now I that I feel like my cat when he sits in his cardboard box surrounded by tissue paper. Argh haha you ain't ignoring me after all.

Once in a year

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

I think this lack of formal training and the "booming voice" are the biggest problems for LS = KoLT. It's possible Lyanna was able to beat three knights in her first jousts without formal training. It seems implausible.

Yes--especially since the three the Knight unhorsed were champions.

3 hours ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

I will say it would be interesting if that is how Lyanna and Rhaegar connect after Aerys demands the KoLT be unmasked.

Well, we know Aerys is foolish enough to think the Knight is Jaime. But would it really take a genius to figure out it's a Northern symbol? Or ask around and hear about Lyanna's chasing off the squires?

Once Rhaegar had that, he doesn't need to know which Stark it was. Just that it was them and that they are stirring up trouble. 

3 hours ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

It seems less textually supported than strongly desired by a segment of fans, part of me wants LS = KoLT to be true too.

Yes--if Lyanna and Rhaegar did fall in love, one story element that needs filling in is the "when." 

But that's nowhere near set yet. 

And, even if the love story is bunk, Lyanna's being the Knight could still be part of the theory that Rhaegar was angry--as Bael was angry at the Stark in Winterfell. 

3 hours ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

Textual evidence of Ned's booming voice and Lyanna's lack of training make me lean in Ned's direction. The Reeds' surprise that Ned never told Bran the story is also telling. I could be wrong, but Ned seems more likely. 

To me, too. But a lot is still possible.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

24 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Schrodinger's cat:

One can even set up quite ridiculous cases. A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter, there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small, that perhaps in the course of the hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer that shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The first atomic decay would have poisoned it. The psi-function of the entire system would express this by having in it the living and dead cat (pardon the expression) mixed or smeared out in equal parts.

It is typical of these cases that an indeterminacy originally restricted to the atomic domain becomes transformed into macroscopic indeterminacy, which can then be resolved by direct observation. That prevents us from so naively accepting as valid a "blurred model" for representing reality. In itself, it would not embody anything unclear or contradictory. There is a difference between a shaky or out-of-focus photograph and a snapshot of clouds and fog banks.

— Erwin Schrödinger, Die gegenwärtige Situation in der Quantenmechanik (The present situation in quantum mechanics), Naturwissenschaften
(translated by John D. Trimmer in Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society)

Quantum Physics is about probabilities. If you know a particle's speed you don't know its location (Heisenberger principle), or vice versa. But you can calculate probabilites. Schrödinger enlarged that principle on the physical level of everyday size to illustrate it, and in his theoretical experiment (because of probability of decay fo the radioactive matter), the cat is both dead and alive in the box, until you opened it and looked in the box.

Good looks

[Sly Wren]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think he's steering us away. Because it could also be interpreted as "she trained in secret at sword play with sticks with Benjen, so what did she train at with Brandon?"

It could be.

But the scene makes it clear that Lyanna is like Arya--a point made throughout the books.

Like Lyanna, Arya played with her little brother with swords.

Arya's big brother? He gave her a sword--no mention of lances or jousting.

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

We know that Brandon raced with Lyanna. Personally, the mention of them riding like a pair of centaurs, calls forth this image of them competing with one another at horse riding. And in that sense I can see the possibility of the competition extending as far as "let's see what you can do with a stick on horseback", which would start at poking it through a ring hanging from a tree, and gradually expanding.

Sure--but in the same novel and the Knight story, we have Arya being specifically compared to Lyanna via her riding. By Harwin. So, Arya is very like Lyanna in this regard, too--and, far as I can remember, Arya only wants a sword. Not jousting.

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

aGoT gives us this impression that Ned and Lyanna were close. That's because he's the sole Stark brother we have a POV about and because he thinks of her often. The truth is that they could not be all that close, since he was in the Vale. And then in aDwD we get references for Lyanna's horse riding together with Brandon. It surprised me the first time I read it, because it actually creates a picture of Brandon and Lyanna being close. 

And it would put Brandon's choice to challenge Rhaegar at the Red Keep in a slightly different light. Where initially he seems the most distant brother and we assume he'd be more like Rickard, he seems to have had his own personal bond with Lyanna. And if Lyanna was the sole horserider in the North to match him, then imo this might have motivated him to compete with her at jousting tricks.  

Possible--but I think Martin's been trying Lyanna and Arya's psyches and skills together for a reason. She has the same skills as Lyanna--and she wants a sword. And gets one from her brother.

Would make more sense if Ned or Brandon fenced with her.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

It could be.

But the scene makes it clear that Lyanna is like Arya--a point made throughout the books.

Like Lyanna, Arya played with her little brother with swords.

Arya's big brother? He gave her a sword--no mention of lances or jousting.

Sure--but in the same novel and the Knight story, we have Arya being specifically compared to Lyanna via her riding. By Harwin. So, Arya is very like Lyanna in this regard, too--and, far as I can remember, Arya only wants a sword. Not jousting.

Possible--but I think Martin's been trying Lyanna and Arya's psyches and skills together for a reason. She has the same skills as Lyanna--and she wants a sword. And gets one from her brother.

Would make more sense if Ned or Brandon fenced with her.

Unless benjen took the black because he was he was the one who taught Lyanna to joust and got her into the whole mess...

of course wild speculation...

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

It could be.

But the scene makes it clear that Lyanna is like Arya--a point made throughout the books.

Like Lyanna, Arya played with her little brother with swords.

Arya's big brother? He gave her a sword--no mention of lances or jousting.

Sure--but in the same novel and the Knight story, we have Arya being specifically compared to Lyanna via her riding. By Harwin. So, Arya is very like Lyanna in this regard, too--and, far as I can remember, Arya only wants a sword. Not jousting.

Possible--but I think Martin's been trying Lyanna and Arya's psyches and skills together for a reason. She has the same skills as Lyanna--and she wants a sword. And gets one from her brother.

Would make more sense if Ned or Brandon fenced with her.

But Lyanna was older than Arya, and Arya has no big brothers to ride with. Arya does not live at WF anymore, growing up with Robb or Jon anymore where she can ride off at heart's content, or watching them train at jousting. She's in Braavos with the HoBaW where nobody jousts. 

[Prince of the North]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I love Carl Sagan,but this popularized quote from him is an overused fallacy. One he had constantly gotten dinged for.Its an argument from ignorance fallacy and to this this day we still have no proof of intelligent life other than us in the cosmos.

And, yet, people still often use the fact that something isn't there to "prove" or assert that then the opposite must be true!  Hmm...

[aryagonnakill#2]

36 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Unless benjen took the black because he was he was the one who taught Lyanna to joust and got her into the whole mess...

of course wild speculation...

We've been told a couple times throughout the series that a person cannot put on full plate armor by themselves, I believe Benjen gave her the armor as he offered to do for Howland, so essentially I agree that Benjen has guilt about it, I just think for a slightly different reason.

[wolfmaid7]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Devil's advocate.

Ohhh,you were playing the Devil's advocate....Gotcha.

3 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

And, yet, people still often use the fact that something isn't there to "prove" or assert that then the opposite must be true!  Hmm...

Yeah.....arguing against the use of arguement from ignorance as a constant explanation when there are  alternatives that are applicableisn't a bad think. But as i said, i'm predominantly in the camp that TKOTLT was Lyanna Stark was but the same things that make her a canidate directly or indirectly makes it doubtful it was her.

[J. Stargaryen]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

No, the books connect Lyanna to horsemanship and sword fighting.

And the books connect jousting to horsemanship.

It's a little bit surprising that someone with your imagination and knowledge of the series would dispute such a simple and obvious connection.

Quote

Where do we see her or Arya long to joust? I looked but couldn't find it--do you have anything like that?

I was going to say the same thing @sweetsunray said, but she beat me to it. I think most of us would agree that Arya's a fairly good proxy for Lyanna, but I don't think you can just automatically assume that as with Arya, so with Lyanna. In other words, it's a good guide, but not a definitive one.

Quote

Right--but the Knight defeated three champions. In a row. That's a LOT of beginner's luck. And insane "untrained" luck. Not impossible, as I said. But seems like Martin keeps telling us about the training of fighters for a reason.

Sure, it's a lot of beginners luck, as much as something like that exists in a fantasy novel. But that's even true if the knight is Ned. And the story is ridiculously improbable to begin with. After their squires attack Howland, those three knights end up as champions, and the knight just happens to defeat them all?

Quote

Well, can you think of a successful fighter in the novels that does well without training? Or open training? Brienne's awesome--and well trained. Oberyn's kids are trained. I can't think of a character that defeats three champions without training--can you?

For reasons already addressed in this thread, I think it's reasonable to assume that Lyanna received at least some informal training with a lance. So I'm not sure why you'd expect me to begin with the premise that she definitely received none.

Quote

And on the bolded: again, we see her being like Arya. We're told that she, like Arya, wanted a sword. Shown she wanted one. Any evidence she wanted a lance (she said, fully realizing Freud would giggle at that set-up)?

YUP! An excellent laying out of the case.

Would also note: Arya, too, is a great rider. Arya, too, is interested in swords. Arya is specifically compared to Lyanna on these points. By more than one person.

And neither Arya nor Lyanna is shown to have any interest in learning to joust.

I feel like these points were already addressed by sweetsunray.

Quote

Yes--but multiple people have starring roles--all of the wolves and Howland, for instance. As for the motive--why doesn't Howland have the "best "motive? Or Ned, since Howland is sleeping in Ned's tent around the time he prays?

I think Lyanna is featured a bit more than her brothers. She's the one who saves Howland from the squires. And the reason she has the best motive to hide her identity is because she wouldn't otherwise be allowed to participate in the joust.

Quote

I fully agree it's possible.

Just seems like we're also being told it's not likely. Or necessary. 

You're entitled to your opinion.

[Makk]

I think its implied that Lyana is the Knight of the Laughing tree because if she was it gives significant meaning to the story, whereas if it was someone else, it would seemingly be a pointless addition and waste of words.

I don't think examining all the other evidence is useful. You would come to the conclusion that it could have been her or it could have been someone else. But I'm virtually certain about it just because of the implications it has for the story.