Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Sly Wren]

On October 1, 2016 at 8:43 AM, JNR said:

The more interesting question on this topic is "If you knew for a fact that R+L≠J, and that Rhaegar never unmasked Lyanna, and that he died without knowing who the Knight was... would you still believe Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree?"

I can't think it would have to make too much difference. 

Lyanna could still be the knight and be the one who pissed off the royals.

We've got strong hints that Rhaegar had an objective at Harrenhal. And that Aerys' presence mucked it up. And that he was furious over the Knight.

The crowning could have nothing to do with admiration. Rhaegar could just have been smart enough to figure out it was a Stark. 

On October 1, 2016 at 7:03 PM, sweetsunray said:

But HR's dream was not shattered. His prayer was answered. Hence, I suspect it was a united effort by several Northerners, where a Stark set the example and the other Northerners genuinely followed suit. I otherwise see no need for Meera to even mention the sigils of the sworn swords present at the feast.

I like this--it would fit with what we know of Northerners, too.

But if it was a group effort, seems like they'd want to try to win. And the North isn't all that . . . progressive. Even Ned who gets lessons for Arya is surprised when she wants to stick with her training. Thinks that she'll soon get tired of it.

If it was a group effort, choosing Lyanna as the fighter seems . . . feminist in a way that doesn't necessarily fit with what we've seen of Ned or Brandon. Granted, we haven't seen a lot. But seems like they'd choose someone they were sure of.

Unless they assumed that she'd probably fail. And be unmasked as a sign of contempt for the 3 knights???

[Little Scribe of Naath]

@Sly Wren

Since you don't seem to feel the KOTLT is Lyanna, who do you think it is? 

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ygrain was the app written by GRRM?Or was it a case of someone did it ,showed it to him and he took a look at it and said ok you have my blessing to to do this.

I'm seriously asking who wrote it? I mean you probably bought it,i didn't sooooo.

Did the info come from GRRM? Again  i believe Lyanna was TKOTLT i'm not a fence sitter.I'm just raising questions that should be raised.

So, you're saying that the person who wrote the entry made it up?

Besides, Lyanna riding at rings doesn't necessarily require Rickard's consent, only a secret training grounds.

PS I wonder if you'd be so dismissive of the app if it stated that Lyanna had a hot tryst with Robert.

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

5 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

Just saw the app and now am 100% Lyanna was KotLT.  GRRM apparently didn't think he had enough foreshadowing.  But my question is why Rickard would let his daughter ride at rings and not practice with a sword?

A point: does the app say that Rickard let Lyanna practice, or does it only say that Lyanna did practice? Two different things.

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What does this mean its based "off his notes?" So GRRM's notes have a POV who can testify to Lyanna having trained at the rings? Does this app have a POV that gave this info? 

ETA: Question still not answered..Who wrote/created the app?

 

The same team as "The World of Ice and Fire" book: Ran and Linda did the writing, George told him what to do.

 

3 hours ago, NorthernXY said:

Why would he dump a spoiler in an obscure app?  Telling us Lyanna rode at rings tells us Lyanna was the KotLT.  Might as well have told people at a conference Lyanna was the KotLT and been done with it.  That way people don't have to spend money on something that is presented in a halfass encyclopedia to get what is most likely the only piece of new information in it.  Could have told us Jon's eyes are just really dark purple too in a certain light and save everyone the speculation if R+L=J.

He doesn't talk about the app like he talks about the books.  He should give interviews that include the app so people can be aware of its existence.

My guess is, he doesn't talk about the app, because we don't ask him about the app.

And, it's really not that big a piece of additional info. We knew already that Lyanna was an outstanding rider, that she was willful, that she had affinity to swords. From all that, "...and she played with the lance, too" is a small, perfectly logical step. We didn't need it spelled out to come to the correct conclusion.

As with Robb's testament: in the book, Robb spends an entire chapter arguing with Cat why Jon Snow could and should be his heir, and later he presents his last will and testament to everyone, and not the readers. In the app, it's said explicitly that Robb named Jon his heir. No shit, Sherlock.

[Macgregor of the North]

With everything Canon that points toward Lyanna and that made everyone come to the conclusion it is indeed Lyanna, then add this semi canon.

"Lyanna proved to be a strong-willed girl who grew into a slender beauty. She was a skilled horsewoman, and practiced at tilting at rings."

Practiced, meaning she was indeed skilled and proficient through lots of practice. Whether that was by sly training adventures with Brandon, or even in the WF yard. Who's to say that Rickard would have forbidden her to tilt some rings in the yard? It's harmless really, especially since she rides so well.

Its only ever said that Rickard refused to let Lyanna carry a sword. 

It's actually quite a strong case for Lyanna really.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I like this--it would fit with what we know of Northerners, too.

But if it was a group effort, seems like they'd want to try to win. And the North isn't all that . . . progressive. Even Ned who gets lessons for Arya is surprised when she wants to stick with her training. Thinks that she'll soon get tired of it.

If it was a group effort, choosing Lyanna as the fighter seems . . . feminist in a way that doesn't necessarily fit with what we've seen of Ned or Brandon. Granted, we haven't seen a lot. But seems like they'd choose someone they were sure of.

Unless they assumed that she'd probably fail. And be unmasked as a sign of contempt for the 3 knights???

The game with Brienne didn't include all knights present at Highgarden either, certainly not at the start. It takes one bear (have female fighters), one moose, one from Barrowdown (know her well) and one merman to help out, and they're not necessarily the high profile men. It's still a group effort, with someone of the bannermen helping out by giving equipment. And why would bannermen "choose" which Stark would ride? It starts with a volunteer, and some helping out. Starts with a few as a gag, more curious than certain.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What does this mean its based "off his notes?" So GRRM's notes have a POV who can testify to Lyanna having trained at the rings? Does this app have a POV that gave this info? 

Especially when they have loads of characters, authors tend to keep separate "fact files" for themselves, so they don't need to peruse hundreds, let alone thousands of pages, whenever they write about a character. Like a personal wikia. Such fact files are an author's "notes", and no they obviously don't have a POV. As for it being canon and being spoilery: it's like GRRM confirming that the word Brienne shouted was "sword" at a conference.

[wolfmaid7]

13 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It is based on GRRM's notes.

That's a bit different......Dexter  and Trueblood the series were "based on" the Novels and there were marked differences.Hell Game of Thrones the series and the books its based on are different.

12 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Why would GRRM need a POV to relay this info?

Assuming Rickard knew, and gave his blessing. Perhaps he considered it a reasonable extension of her riding skills, and relatively harmless since she would never be able to actually joust. (HA!) And he might have considered it fundamentally different from sword play, since tilting at rings does not involving fighting with another person.

My first query is the insertion of why "GRRM" you all seem to be dancing around his involvement in the creation of this app.I'm just trying to ascertain what the POV is if any so i can gauge its reliability.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So, you're saying that the person who wrote the entry made it up?

Besides, Lyanna riding at rings doesn't necessarily require Rickard's consent, only a secret training grounds.

PS I wonder if you'd be so dismissive of the app if it stated that Lyanna had a hot tryst with Robert.

 

They could have made it up yes.It could have been an extention of what "they' believe to be the case based on their understanding of what they think the clues are.But its the sweeping generalizations that seem off to me.GRRM's notes were used ok which notes? Did those notes actually say "Lyanna practiced at rings" That's all i want confirmation on.

Yes,i would be dismissive of the app  because its NOT canon.

7 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

A point: does the app say that Rickard let Lyanna practice, or does it only say that Lyanna did practice? Two different things.

The same team as "The World of Ice and Fire" book: Ran and Linda did the writing, George told him what to do.

My guess is, he doesn't talk about the app, because we don't ask him about the app.

As with Robb's testament: in the book, Robb spends an entire chapter arguing with Cat why Jon Snow could and should be his heir, and later he presents his last will and testament to everyone, and not the readers. In the app, it's said explicitly that Robb named Jon his heir. No shit, Sherlock.

On the first your right but here's the issue i'm having with that.Why doesn't it say she practiced at swords and tilting the rings. The first part would go toward her doing it in secret.The latter makes it sound as if the practicing with and her being stronged will was "known" 

Do you know if GRRM told them "what to write" is there confirmation that piece of info was something he told them to put?

Here i was thinking that despite what Robb outright said about what he was thinking,the subtle clues imo did point to him naming Arya as his heir.

I got to be honest i have a hard time believing that mysteries such as these George would reveal in an app.One in which you got to pay as much as the books depending on how much tidbits you want to unlock and then when the books come out you "may" get the same info.

Brianne for instance yelling a word and it being sword is nothing.Its the only thing she could have yelled at that point that would break through.So him confirming that ehhh.

[a black swan]

28 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Here i was thinking that despite what Robb outright said about what he was thinking,the subtle clues imo did point to him naming Arya as his heir.

What is your thinking behind that? The fact that Cat reminds him of her rights yet he thinks she is missing and assumed dead. Yet never mentions her when naming his dead siblings. It seemed rather odd to me. Then we also have Lady Stoneheart with Robb's crown in the Saltpans looking for Arya. 

[wolfmaid7]

10 hours ago, DutchArya said:

What is your thinking behind that? The fact that Cat reminds him of her rights yet he thinks she is missing and assumed dead. Yet never mentions her when naming his dead siblings. It seemed rather odd to me. Then we also have Lady Stoneheart with Robb's crown in the Saltpans looking for Arya. 

Without setting this thread on a derail.That's part of it yes....

[Free folk Daemon]

It may be me seeing things, but in this fanfilm of the Tower of Joy faithful to the books that Elio posted in April, is that a cheeky shot of a shield with a laughing tree in the background within the Tower of Joy itself?

 

[J. Stargaryen]

On 10/2/2016 at 11:42 PM, Sly Wren said:

Agreed. Would also add that so far in the novels, we've only seen jousters who are good who are also trained.

HA! Yes, I do have that annoying tick. And you and @sweetsunray are right in that there are pointers to Lyanna. 

But there are also pointers to the need for training--namely, so far everyone who's good is trained somewhat.

I wasn't being glib, I don't think your 'summations' are annoying. I think they're completely reasonable. On the other hand, I don't think it looks nearly so reasonable to counter data with non-data. We know the claims that were made about jousting and horsemanship. We know the claims that were made about Lyanna's riding abilities. Your counters boil down to the claim that we don't know if Lyanna practiced at jousting or not.

Let's try it another way: How do you explain the data points I've mentioned? Why does GRRM repeatedly tell us that Lyanna was an excellent rider, and also tell us that jousting is mostly riding? Do you think that's just coincidence?

On 10/2/2016 at 11:42 PM, Sly Wren said:

All fair. But given that Martin has taken a fair amount of time showing us the Arqya-Lyanna connection, I can't discount her entirely. But as I said to @sweetsunray, it's by no means certain or dispositive if Arya didn't do it.

Making a claim based on evidence is different that making a claim based on a lack of evidence. 

On 10/2/2016 at 11:42 PM, Sly Wren said:

True. And true that she might have. And that the books don't exclude it yet.

But they also only show her pursuing swords. And have not shown us she was trained. Only stated the opposite re: Rickard.

Lyanna wasn't supposed to play at swords, yet she did it anyway. The takeaway from that re: lances, is that her father's word wouldn't have stopped her from picking one up if she wanted to. And knowing what we know about Lyanna, that she loved riding and had martial interests, picking up a lance seems like a natural progression.

On 10/2/2016 at 11:42 PM, Sly Wren said:

Agreed. Though Martin has said he doesn't like some of the fantasy tropes.

And seems to have gone to some lengths to make the fighting in the novels somewhat "realistic."

Saying that GRRM has said he doesn't like some fantasy tropes is another way of saying that he does like some of them. So...

Sure, until he needs arrows to travel 700+ft, then that is what happens. Plus, jousting at tourneys isn't really fighting.

On 10/2/2016 at 11:42 PM, Sly Wren said:

We don't yet know she trained at jousting. And Arya, too, is wicked good at riding.

Way to dodge my point.

On 10/2/2016 at 11:42 PM, Sly Wren said:

True.

Though Mystery Knights who could absolutely compete otherwise are laid out in the same novel that Meera's tale is in. And given by Bran as she's telling the tale. Also by Jaime earlier.

So, lack of being able to compete is clearly not remotely required for a desire to hide.

That's true. The motive to enter as a mystery knight is to hide your identity. And among the suspects for the KotLT, Lyanna had the strongest motive to do just that.

On 10/2/2016 at 11:42 PM, Sly Wren said:

Right--but unless I'm remembering wrong, wasn't there a thread for reporting things the app got wrong when compared to the books? It's alluded to here.

ETA: And the link to said thread is here.

 

If those mistakes got through into the original version of the app, what about mistakes/misconceptions that couldn't be corrected because they haven't been discussed in the books? We've no way of checking until it shows up in the books. 

Until something's confirmed in the books, it's not canon, according to both Martin and Ran.

Everyone's going to disagree on how much weight to give the app. But both Martin and Ran have said it's not canon until it's in the novels. 

So, until then, "Lyanna rode at rings" is semi-canon. And could end up being correct. Could also end up being incorrect. Like other mistakes that were in the app originally.

There were mistakes in the app that were fixed. Yet the bit about Lyanna tilting at rings remains. Also, as mentioned up thread, the app was advertised as containing new bits of info.

[J. Stargaryen]

On 10/3/2016 at 10:46 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

My first query is the insertion of why "GRRM" you all seem to be dancing around his involvement in the creation of this app.I'm just trying to ascertain what the POV is if any so i can gauge its reliability.

No one is dancing around anything. I just don't think your question made any sense. If GRRM provides info, why does it have to be in the form of a POV?

My understanding of how the app came to be is that the character bios it features were originally intended for TWoIaF, but they took up too much room, and/or used up too much of the word count. So an app was created to house that info.

[Shmedricko]

Just a couple quotes from The Mystery Knight I haven't seen mentioned before in regards to this topic:

Quote

"You have not ridden in a tilt since Ashford Meadow, ser."

Insolent boy. "I've trained." Not so faithfully as he might have, to be sure. When he could, he took his turn riding at quintains or rings, where such were available. And sometimes he would command Egg to climb a tree and hang a shield or barrel stave beneath a well-placed limb for them to tilt at.

Quote

"You seem a healthy fellow, and very large. Size will always impress the fools though it means little and less in jousting. Will was able to get odds of three to one against me. Lord Shawney gave five to one, the fool."

[Macgregor of the North]

I'm gonna hazard a guess here and assume some people actually have some kind of issue with this app? Why is beyond me. Maybe they hate the idea of having to actually pay for some extra info from GRRMS world. Like it's all became some kind of money making machine and they don't like that etc etc. 

Its a few quid!

Some of them same people bought the world book I'd imagine though yeah? Well there's not that much difference you know. 

The apps content was originally slated for the World book but is now it's own thing and I'm glad it is. I love it. It's no silly wee toy, it's an official collection of entries from GRRMS own mind and work. Entries have been added to and built on from hours of Q&A's with GRRM on countless lunch breaks of his so it's very much a GRRM thing even though the creation of its credit goes to others such as Ran and co.

It has been pored over countless times to remove mistakes or story ruining spoilers so is actually in quite good shape in its current form.

If it says that Lyanna is practiced at tilting at rings, there's a reason. GRRM and Ran and the rest are actually quite happy for you to take the Canon hints from the book and couple them with the apps statements and solidify your own thoughts concerning Lyanna. They have no problem with this, or else it wouldn't be there. 

I believe this is a hint toward the Kotlt theory they are happy to let stand. And why not eh? It's already quite obvious anyways. 

I Have a couple other thoughts on Lyanna. 

She is the older and taller of her and Ben, I think she is more worried that Old Nan will tell Rickard that Lyanna has man handled her smaller brother again, this time actually plopping him in the black pool, instead of Nan actually telling that they were playing with two branches.

Its maybe not that Rickard is absolutely against Lyanna practicing with fake swords, it's maybe that he's worried she will actually harm somebody because she's really good, and quite rough!

It is said he would not let Lyanna carry a sword. This could easily just mean that on trips, such as Harrenhal for a great example, he forbids Lyanna to carry a real sword because he fears she would actually use it and cause someone real harm.

"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it."

Luckily for the squires she listens to her father in that aspect! 

To take this further. I do not see any issue at all with Rickard letting his daughter tilt some rings on her horse she loves to ride, it's a completely harmless natural thing to do in that day for horse riders. He obviously is comforted by the fact she will never become a Tourney Knight (lol) so where's the harm? There is no harm at all.

And if she was forbidden it at WF, then she would have done it out on rides with Brandon or possibly Ben. 

Basically, Lyanna could very very easily be accomplished enough to be a Mystery knight and hold her own against men in the lists. Easily.

[maudisdottir]

Good point re "carrying" a sword.  Is there any other reference to Rickard's sword ban? Because if all she was forbidden to do was "carry" a sword, it's also possible she was allowed to train with a sword, just not carry one with her (as the menfolk did). So she might have been an expert swordswoman AND a trained jouster, if we're going strictly by what's in the text.

[Macgregor of the North]

32 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

Good point re "carrying" a sword.  Is there any other reference to Rickard's sword ban? Because if all she was forbidden to do was "carry" a sword, it's also possible she was allowed to train with a sword, just not carry one with her (as the menfolk did). So she might have been an expert swordswoman AND a trained jouster, if we're going strictly by what's in the text.

I think that's all that's ever said and if I'm honest, it's looked into a little too much but not looked into enough at the same time in regards to exactly what it states. 

The carried part is quite important.

Its safe enough I think to assume that possibly Rickard never frowned upon the training/playing aspect as much as people think, but he probably frowned more upon Lyannas wilfulness and ability to batter her younger brother around lol, poor wee Ben, he must have taken a few hidings off Lyanna.

[wolfmaid7]

10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

No one is dancing around anything. I just don't think your question made any sense. If GRRM provides info, why does it have to be in the form of a POV?

My understanding of how the app came to be is that the character bios it features were originally intended for TWoIaF, but they took up too much room, and/or used up too much of the word count. So an app was created to house that info.

Jstag i'm not giving answers,i don't have the app.I  was asking questions and pointing out that the non pov status of it makes it a bit dubious.By POV (GRRM or somebody else).We don't know who wrote what and for some of  us some that knowledge it is important as it prevents people from making  informed decisions especially where to put their money and that to me isn't cool.

I you telling me It would have taken up too much room or have to much of a word count to have Ned while talking to Arya drop that little tidbit.Or have Lady B or anyone who spoke of how great Lyanna was as a horseman mention that  she was tlting at the rings? 

So all that sweet ambiguity which could have been mentioned in the main text by the way,couldn't be mentioned in TWOIAF.Needed to have an app created to give that info?

Riiiiiiiiight!!! I'm not buying it,this.You may not see this but Jstar i'm sorry but this is some really shady s**t.

To reiterate  its in the app and was meant to be in the WB.So how hard is it for someone to answer specifically....There are somethings that can be answered off the bat as in who wrote  what....So it is dancing around.

I'll make it easy.No more of that "it was in GRRM's notes .Who wrote the bio for Lyanna,was her tilting at the rings written by GRRM?  

 

[Macgregor of the North]

The app's text was written by Ran and Linda, and confirmed to have been a project GRRM worked on together with them.

They do not 'make things up for this app', that's a ridiculous notion. 

It has been confirmed as approved by GRRM and that he personally worked on the project.

Its confirmed he has literally answered hundreds of questions specifically for the app on long Q&A sessions. 

There are confirmed new details added to entries. Newer than the published books, and never ever confirmed before.

In the four years, the app has saw plenty mistakes fixed but the text stating Lyanna was "practiced at tilting at rings" remains even after all this time.

George, Ran and co. all know it's there and seem happy with it. It's not made up and everything officially stated about the app seems to point to it actually being one of these new details that are buried in there that Ran and Linda never knew until they asked him in the Q&A's.

Sure, the app is semi canon, but it stems from GRRM and sneaky details in it like the one we are talking about are certainly not made up because Ran thought it may have been a cool detail to add. That shit makes me chuckle. 

Heres my sources:

 

From not a blog:

"So the official George and his publisher approved World of Ice and Fire app is available. I can attest to the fact that he personally worked on this project, because I sat and took notes as we went over hundreds of questions on random Ice and Fire arcana. No, it didn't delay Winds of Winter. I made him do it while he ate lunch. Yes, he complains when I make him work during lunch."

From Westeros.org:

"Now, the origins of it… the name of the app is no coincidence, given that it shares its title with the book that we’re co-writing with GRRM. In fact, a good part of the content in the app was originally slated for said book. However, that book has more than enough content already planned, between the histories, the family trees, the art, the maps ... and truth be told, the book seemed the best place to focus on the setting as opposed to the characters. Somewhere along the way, the app idea came up. "

"The vast majority of the app really only restates, in more concise form, details that are scattered across the novels; many things you might think are new are just things you’ve forgotten or didn’t quite piece together, in other words! But there are some new details buried in there, both minor and not-so-minor, thanks to a long, long Q&A with GRRM that provided us quite a few details that have never been confirmed before."

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I'll make it easy.No more of that "it was in GRRM's notes .Who wrote the bio for Lyanna,was her tilting at the rings written by GRRM?  

What makes you so confident that it was not written by him? We have no way to verify what exactly was written by him and what wasn't - what we do have is the confirmation that GRRM indeed did provide some details for the app (quote given by Macgregor above.) So wouldn't it be better to err on the side of the default position - that the information that "Lyanna was practiced tilting at rings" could very well have been from him?