Darkstream Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 4 hours ago, Kienn said: It's a far better connection than Lyanna's connection to jousting. No, it's not a connection at all, in the slightest. Your first quote specifically references Robert's voice, not a thing about Ned's. The second one, not only is it also not referencing Ned's voice, but it says nothing about a booming voice either. As you just said: Quote If you could count roaring, howling, yelling, screaming, shouting, and booming as all the same then this would make sense. ...but all of sudden, to back your theory, a Lord's voice is the same as a booming voice? Sorry, according to your own logic, the quote you provided doesn't make sense, even if it was referencing Ned. And of course we all know, including you, that it wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 4 hours ago, Kienn said: If you could count roaring, howling, yelling, screaming, shouting, and booming as all the same then this would make sense. But Ned's and Jon's chapters have both established specifically "booming" voices as requiring training. Anyone can yell. People with strong lungs can "boom". The rest of the books have a clear pattern of who can do it. Men (soldiers, heralds, singers) and "large" folks (i.e. Manderlys and Jaime's aunt Genna). Find me a 14 year old slim girl with a booming voice and I'll concede that Lyanna could boom. Actually no I don't count them all the same. Howling, yelling and screaming may be a high pitched sound. Roaring is not though. Strangely enough it's one of the verbs I picked writing a scene for a man commanding his canonneers over the blasts. So, roaring is definitely a word that I would personally use as a synonym to booming. I already did. As for a 14 year old girl. We tend to associate a girl's or woman's voice with a high pitched sound, but there are women with lower pitched voices (alts). And their voices would be lower pitched at 14 as well as 34. More, in case the 14 year old girl has an alt voice compared to a 14 year old boy who hasn't broken his voice yet, it is possible for a girl to have a lower pitched voice than the boy. They sometimes say that every child's voice is a natural soprano, but that's pretty much BS in my experience. I always had a deep, lower voice with some perceived hoarseness for example, even on tapes of when I was 5. Kathleen Turner would have sounded like she sounds at 14 as well. Her voice didn't break all of a sudden between her 14 and 20. She had that deep voice as a young girl already. And I can guarantee you that such a voice can "roar" and can "boom", without a doubt. Maybe that's what made Robert and Rhaegar fall like a brick for Lyanna? She had a voice like Kathleen Turner's? Of course, the assistance of a "chamber" can help to amplify an alt's roar into a boom. A helm does provide that amplifying room. And yes, I know you'll mention Brienne's "muffled voice" in response to that. So, I'll already answer that beforehand. The reason why Brienne's voice is "muffled" inside the helm is because Brienne "mumbles" in general. She's the female version of a grown up Podrick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 1 hour ago, sweetsunray said: The reason why Brienne's voice is "muffled" inside the helm is because Brienne "mumbles" in general. And even though Brienne mumbles, and is soft spoken in general, her voice was still mistaken for a man's. So clearly, a woman's voice in a helm, definitely sounds lower than it normaly would. Lyanna, with her roaring voice and wild wolf persona, while intentionally trying to disguise or alter her voice, could certainly pull off a booming sound in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 37 minutes ago, Darkstream said: And even though Brienne mumbles, and is soft spoken in general, her voice was still mistaken for a man's. So clearly, a woman's voice in a helm, definitely sounds lower than it normaly would. Lyanna, with her roaring voice and wild wolf persona, while intentionally trying to disguise or alter her voice, could certainly pull off a booming sound in my opinion. She may not even need to "disguise" or "alter" voice, if she has a low, deep, throatier voice to begin with. If you don't see the face or features of a girl with a voice in the low raw ranges that too is easily confused with a male voice, without a helmet even. Nor does a voice like that require "training" or a wide chest to be enhanced to boom. I really don't have to put much air or force behind my voice to make it carry, loud. In fact, I actually must exert control as a speaker to prevent myself from speaking too loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macgregor of the North Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 @Free folk Daemon since this is your thread, what do you believe? Has the thread answered your question? I think the views stated by everybody on the thread paints a very strong case for Lyanna. 1. Lyannas voice cant boom!. Yes, it can(see @sweetsunray), and a helm would help it on its way. 2. Lyanna could not knock three grown men off their horses, let alone three champions. Nope! Out of his armour, Loras is described as a slender boy who looks younger than his sixteen years, but this in no way hinders his ability to regularly knock grown men off their horses, Including Jaime Lannister, members of the kingsguard and also the biggest guy in the whole story Gregor clegane. The key is with the riders ability and skill. 3. Lyanna has never ever trained with lance. Well, the only evidence that anybody has for this is their own bare faced assumption that she never. While there is actually semi canon evidence from an approved GRRM involved project source that not only shows she has practiced with the lance but she is actually 'practiced' at it, meaning proficient through a good deal of practice. So on this point, the Lyanna camp is just slightly ahead on that one. 4. Then just picture this, A full grown man Ned Stark, hunting around Harrenhal for armour that does not fit, or match(and could endanger his life), to canter on to the field and challenge three champs while hiding his identity. Sound like Ned? 5. Then remind yourself how the Lyanna angle fits in to the story, where the Ned angle simply does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 49 minutes ago, sweetsunray said: I really don't have to put much air or force behind my voice to make it carry, loud. In fact, I actually must exert control as a speaker to prevent myself from speaking too loud. It requires a bit more effort on my part as I need to lower the pitch but I can boom over an unruly classroom just fine. All female teachers do, unless they want to screech, which is not really a way to go with teenagers. 19 hours ago, Kienn said: Now is the part where you go "But Ned never does it himself! He only trains with Robert and teaches his own sons! If you can't do, teach." In other words, it can be taught. Now, please, provide us the quote stating that Lyanna never had a chance to learn how to project her voice to deeper, resonating registers. You can start any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 Yes she was, I don't lknow why it's even a question at that point. Besides "evidence" there's a little thing called litterature that has some rules too; Lyanna not being the KotLT would mess up said rules, and not in a good way. So it's either Lyanna is the KOtL or the whole KotL story is a nonsensical ugly monkey, there's no middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted October 10, 2016 Share Posted October 10, 2016 19 minutes ago, Ygrain said: It requires a bit more effort on my part as I need to lower the pitch but I can boom over an unruly classroom just fine. All female teachers do, unless they want to screech, which is not really a way to go with teenagers. I boom too easily over an unruly classroom And when I'm excited I'm not always aware I've turned up the volume of my voice. My father sometimes complains I'm shouting when I'm not even trying to. Anyhow, an untrained female voice, even that of a teen, can boom if the volume is turned up and already low and deep by nature. Training (as in doing it regularly) helps in that you don't lose your voice after several consecutive days of "booming". Even with male colleagues there are voices that boom more naturally than another man's. One of the male colleagues I've known to "boom" the most, was a small sized man of no particular width. But his voice boomed like a bell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 15 hours ago, Darkstream said: a Lord's voice is the same as a booming voice? Yes, the context of those 2 quotes makes that quite clear. If you can't see that then I really can't explain it any better. Jon Arryn teaches Ned & Robert, Ned mentions it when Robert is using it, Ned teaches Jon & Robb, Jon mentions it when Donal Noye uses it in pretty much the same wording. 12 hours ago, Ygrain said: provide us the quote stating that Lyanna never had a chance to learn how to project her voice to deeper, resonating registers. You can start any time. Can you provide a quote stating that Ned isn't "short of stature"? Can you provide one stating that Ned never donned a mystery knight's armor? You may start any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 2 hours ago, Kienn said: Yes, the context of those 2 quotes makes that quite clear. If you can't see that then I really can't explain it any better. Jon Arryn teaches Ned & Robert, Ned mentions it when Robert is using it, Ned teaches Jon & Robb, Jon mentions it when Donal Noye uses it in pretty much the same wording. There's no need, I don't need your condescending remarks or explanations. I am fully aware that it is plausible that Ned is capable of making a booming voice. You are the one making the claim that you can provide a quote that states and/or proves this, and you have failed, as everyone on this thread knew you would. The text has shown that not only is it possible for Ned and Lyanna to speak with a booming voice, but also a great many candidates could have done so. Your assertion that the booming voice can be used to eliminate Lyanna as a candidate for the KOTLT is bunk. I don't know how I can explain it better to you than has already been done by many posters over and over again. Quote Can you provide a quote stating that Ned isn't "short of stature"? Can you provide one stating that Ned never donned a mystery knight's armor? You may start any time. Someone who actually had a case in the argument they are putting forth, would not answer a challenge to back up their claims by ignoring said challenge and trying to divert the debate with a totally unrelated, and non-sensical challenge such as this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Darkstream said: Someone who actually had a case in the argument they are putting forth, would not answer a challenge to back up their claims by ignoring said challenge and trying to divert the debate with a totally unrelated, and non sensical challenge as this. Actually the point is that I make my theories based on positive relationships between themes and passages in the books whenever possible. I have no need to find a quote proving that Lyanna didn't have a booming voice when there's zero indication that she did have a booming voice compared to multiple indications than Ned does. So I compare that to claims made by the set of Lyanna=KotLT theories - that Ned is "too tall" and that Ned "wouldn't do that". All indications from the text are that Ned is not/was not tall and there's not really indications either way regarding the other. Arguing "plausibility" is also extremely weak. Using that logic you can argue for any character that doesn't have explicit text against them. Therefore characters that simply aren't referenced much become the strongest candidates. So I'll apply it to my summary from the beginning, with comparisons to Lyanna. Short of stature Lyanna: Completely plausible. 14 year old girl, likely to be called short and likely textual support (I haven't bothered to find or enumerate quotes). Ned: Plausible. 18 year old man, but not fully grown during the tournament, with indications that he is short of average even as an adult. Lyanna favored. Booming voice Ned: Completely plausible. Trained at it in his youth and trained his own children. Booming voice is a necessity for battle commanders, for which Ned is respected. Lyanna: Weakly plausible. Anyone can learn to be loud, but there are zero other examples of small girls with booming voices. Ned heavily favored. Jousting Ned: Completely plausible. Would have been trained as part of his standard education as a young lord but especially in the Vale where knights are renowned. Lyanna: Weakly plausible. Excellent horse rider, which is mentioned as a prereq to jousting, and may have trained at "rings" in her spare time. But with opponents being 3 champions it seems unlikely for a novice at armored jousting to win. Ned heavily favored. As I've said before, the rest of the arguments for either side are so sparse on actual quotes that they're completely based on personal preferences and usually on the first theory newcomers are exposed to. Personally I find the implications of Ned as KotLT far more compelling than the romance in the woods for Lyanna=KotLT, but RLJ clearly wins the popular vote to favor Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Scribe of Naath Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Mismatched, ill-fitting armour? The need to even hide oneself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 6 minutes ago, Kienn said: Booming voice Ned: Completely plausible, trained at it in his youth and trained his own children. Booming voice is a necessity for battle commanders, for which Ned is respected. Lyanna: Weakly plausible. Anyone can learn to be loud, but there are zero other examples of small girls with booming voices. Ned heavily favored. Except you are ignoring that it is established that a woman's voice would take on a much lower tone when wearing a helmet. You are also ignoring that Lyanna is stated to have a roaring voice. Lyanna's roaring voice, being altered (if even necessary) by the effects that a helm has been shown to have on a voice, confirms that it is completely plausible for her to produce a booming effect. So with Ned you have plausibility, but no actual reference or examples of his voice. Perhaps he was trained to use a Lord's voice, but was never able to accomplish this. (I'm not saying that I believe this, but it is a possibility, as there is nothing in the text to confirm that he has a booming voice, or was able to master the training that he received.) With Lyanna you have an actual first hand account of her using a roaring voice, and that's without the added effects of wearing a helmet. Lyanna, heavily favored. 23 minutes ago, Kienn said: . Jousting Ned: Completely plausible, would have been trained as part of his standard education as a young lord but especially in the Vale where knights are renowned. Lyanna: Plausible, excellent horse rider and may have trained at "rings" in her spare time. Ned favored. Again, with Ned, you have plausibility, but nothing to hint or confirm as to his skill as a jouster. With Lyanna, you have not only plausibility, but also hints towards her being an efficient jouster. Lyanna, heavily favored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 4 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said: Mismatched, ill-fitting armour? The need to even hide oneself? Is this for me? As I've said before. Just because we don't know Ned's specific reasons, it doesn't mean he doesn't have them. Just as for Lyanna, I can come up with plenty of plausible reasons for Ned. I've listed those before so I will answer instead with a question: Why does anyone ever enter as mystery knight? Bran says they are common, so why does anyone do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 1 minute ago, Kienn said: I've listed those before so I will answer instead with a question: Why does anyone ever enter as mystery knight? Bran says they are common, so why does anyone do it? To hide their identity. For which it has already been established that Lyanna had the strongest motive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Scribe of Naath Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 34 minutes ago, Kienn said: Short of stature Lyanna: Completely plausible. 14 year old girl, likely to be called short and likely textual support (I haven't bothered to find or enumerate quotes). Ned: Plausible. 18 year old man, but not fully grown during the tournament, with indications that he is short of average even as an adult. The incident is from Howland's POV, and a crannogman is not going to call a grown 18-year old short. Lyanna heavily favored. Booming voice Ned: Completely plausible. Trained at it in his youth and trained his own children. Booming voice is a necessity for battle commanders, for which Ned is respected. Lyanna: Weakly plausible. Anyone can learn to be loud, but there are zero other examples of small girls with booming voices. Ned heavily favored. Jousting Ned: Completely plausible. Would have been trained as part of his standard education as a young lord but especially in the Vale where knights are renowned. Lyanna: Weakly plausible. Excellent horse rider, which is mentioned as a prereq to jousting, and may have trained at "rings" in her spare time. But with opponents being 3 champions it seems unlikely for a novice at armored jousting to win. Equal tie. All quotes from the books connect jousting to superior riding skills, which Lyanna was known to have. In addition, we have information which has a 50% probability of being straight from GRRM's notes that she was practiced at riding at rings. Mismatched armor Ned: Totally implausible. No conceivable reason why he shouldn't use his own, and even if he didn't, there would definitely have been other men around with similar build to lend him armour. Lyanna: Completely plausible. Being a girl, she would have no armor of her own. Lyanna heavily favored. Reason for hiding identity Ned: Totally implausible. Lyanna: Completely plausible. Self-explanatory Lyanna heavily favored. Temperament to carry this out: Ned: Extremely unlikely. Being a shy, introverted man of honour, he'd prefer the straightforward punishment. Lyanna: Very plausible, from what little snippets we see of her nature, and the fact that she's compared to Arya. Lyanna heavily favored. So your idea that people are reaching this conclusion based on their "own bias", is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 6 minutes ago, Darkstream said: it is established that a woman's voice would take on a much lower tone when wearing a helmet. Where is that established? Are you talking about when Catelyn mistakes Brienne for a man? The only thing established about the effect of a helm is that it muffled Brienne's voice. It did not make it boom. Catelyn mistakes Brienne for a man because she simply expects it to be a man. 7 minutes ago, Darkstream said: without the added effects of wearing a helmet. Again, helms detract from voices, they don't add to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kienn Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 4 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said: The incident is from Howland's POV, and a crannogman is not going to call a grown 18-year old short. It's actually told from a narrator perspective. However, if you assume it to be Howland's perspective then Howland would certainly know who the KotLT was and the story repeatedly refers to KotLT as he/him/his... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 17 hours ago, Kienn said: Where is that established? Are you talking about when Catelyn mistakes Brienne for a man? The only thing established about the effect of a helm is that it muffled Brienne's voice. It did not make it boom. Catelyn mistakes Brienne for a man because she simply expects it to be a man. It was already explained why in Brienne's case, the helmet has a muffled effect. She is soft spoken by nature and has a tendency to mumble. Who cares if she expected it to be a man? She heard Brienne speak with a helm on, and could not notice anything to distinguish that it was a woman's voice. This would indicate that her voice sounded lower, like a typical man's voice would sound. Quote Again, helms detract from voices, they don't add to them. And where do you get this from? A loud roaring voice, coming from inside an enclosed chamber would result in an echoing, or booming effect. According to your logic, nobody could produce a booming effect while wearing a helm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Scribe of Naath Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 13 minutes ago, Kienn said: It's actually told from a narrator perspective. However, if you assume it to be Howland's perspective then Howland would certainly know who the KotLT was and the story repeatedly refers to KotLT as he/him/his... Not really. It is unclear if he ever knew who the KOTLT was, because Meera thinks it was a crannogman, while Jojen hints it could be someone else. Another point in this favor could be that - if Howland knew that this was the spark which led to the chain of events of RR, he wouldn't be telling it as a nice kid's story to his children either. One would expect him to have been bitter over the memory as well. The story is indeed from Howland's POV: Quote The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench. If it wasn't, the story could have begun at the tourney. Yet we receive an account of his general personality and trip to the Isle of Faces. One can actually make a stronger case for Howland himself as the KOTLT than Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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