Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ohhh,you were playing the Devil's advocate....Gotcha.

Arguing against an assertion that cannot be proven, because of absence of evidence, is always devil's advocate debate. It simply suffices to point out the window of opportunity that could prove such an assertion as false one day. I have nothing against making a case to support Ned Stark as KotLT, but when people begin to argue against another theory using possibly false assertions, then yeah, I will point it out. There is a gigantic difference between arguing against supporters of Lyanna "there is no evidence that she trained at jousting and I am unwilling to suspend my disbelief that she could have done this if she had no training" versus "Lyanna was not trained and I am unwilling to suspend my disbelief that she could have done this without training." The reason for that is that some people, like myself, are pretty much on the fence, and am interested in genuine positive arguments as well as genuine counter arguments. But when one side of the discussion distorts lack of evidence as evidence for their own case it gives me a sense of misinforming the fence-sitters.

[Kienn]

52 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Sure, it's a lot of beginners luck, as much as something like that exists in a fantasy novel. But that's even true if the knight is Ned.

So you're saying there's not a blatant connection between the Vale and knights? I'm surprised anyone would dispute such a simple and obvious connection.

[Prince of the North]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ohhh,you were playing the Devil's advocate....Gotcha.

Yeah.....arguing against the use of arguement from ignorance as a constant explanation when there are  alternatives that are applicableisn't a bad think. But as i said, i'm predominantly in the camp that TKOTLT was Lyanna Stark was but the same things that make her a canidate directly or indirectly makes it doubtful it was her.

My point always was and remains that we simply don't know for sure.  And that's why I find the idea that because we never got absolute confirmation that Lyanna got "formal" weapons/jousting training it absolutely means she couldn't have had any training... unconvincing of anything, really

And, yes, for the record I will continue to believe that it's most likely Lyanna was the KotLT until Martin gives me more info to work with 

[J. Stargaryen]

3 minutes ago, Kienn said:

So you're saying there's not a blatant connection between the Vale and knights? I'm surprised anyone would dispute such a simple and obvious connection.

I wasn't disputing that Ned had been taught how to joust, only that he was new to the lists, unless I'm forgetting something, and thus could have been considered a beginner himself.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

And the books connect jousting to horsemanship.

It's a little bit surprising that someone with your imagination and knowledge of the series would dispute such a simple and obvious connection.

And Jousting is also clearly tied to extensive training.

Plus, if "Riding=jousting", we should assume Arya loved jousting, too, no? And. . . . can't find anything in the books on that.

It's clearly possible--but just not likely.

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I was going to say the same thing @sweetsunray said, but she beat me to it. I think most of us would agree that Arya's a fairly good proxy for Lyanna, but I don't think you can just automatically assume that as with Arya, so with Lyanna. In other words, it's a good guide, but not a definitive one.

Right--but so far, we know Lyanna wanted a sword. And we see her pick one up at Harrenhal. And Play at sticks with Benjen--our last image of her. So far, the books keeps saying, "Lyanna loved swords. Like Arya."

But nothing about jousting. On Arya or Lyanna. Seems like that's not something to ignore.

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Sure, it's a lot of beginners luck, as much as something like that exists in a fantasy novel. But that's even true if the knight is Ned. And the story is ridiculously improbable to begin with. After their squires attack Howland, those three knights end up as champions, and the knight just happens to defeat them all?

Amen--that's the one hope for this theory: Fantasy. And the novel is fantasy. No way around it.

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

For reasons already addressed in this thread, I think it's reasonable to assume that Lyanna received at least some informal training with a lance.

Why? It's reasonable to think she might have done. But to assume she absolutely has? Why on earth assume that based on what we've been told and shown about her?

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

So I'm not sure why you'd expect me to begin with the premise that she definitely received none.

Not "definitely didn't"--but without any evidence that she didn't, assume it's unlikely that she did.

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I think Lyanna is featured a bit more than her brothers. She's the one who saves Howland from the squires. And the reason she has the best motive to hide her identity is because she wouldn't otherwise be allowed to participate in the joust.

Perhaps. Though featured less than Howland. And his motive is HUGE.

And Ned (or even Ben and Brandon) would have the motive of keeping hidden to protect Howland's pride.

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

You're entitled to your opinion.

As are we all. That's what makes this fun. 

[Sly Wren]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

But Lyanna was older than Arya, and Arya has no big brothers to ride with. Arya does not live at WF anymore, growing up with Robb or Jon anymore where she can ride off at heart's content, or watching them train at jousting. She's in Braavos with the HoBaW where nobody jousts. 

Right, but even when Arya gets to Kings Landing, surrounded by knights, she still shows no desire for jousting, even though we find out that she's an excellent rider.

She wants her sword and training accordingly.

And, so far, all we've ever found out about Lyanna martially is that she wanted a sword.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Kienn said:

So you're saying there's not a blatant connection between the Vale and knights? I'm surprised anyone would dispute such a simple and obvious connection.

Okay--I had not even thought of this and am now feeling stupid. 

The Vale Knights and Ned's connection to the Vale have been stressed since Game.

Hell--a Vale Knight is one of the first characters we meet--Waymar.

Ned's having potentially superior training for jousting--that's gotta be an option.

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I wasn't disputing that Ned had been taught how to joust, only that he was new to the lists, unless I'm forgetting something, and thus could have been considered a beginner himself.

A beginner at a tourney, yes.

But he would have been in training for years. Training we've no evidence Lyanna got.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

26 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Training we've no evidence Lyanna got

Training she "might" or "might not" have got. There is no hard evidence either way.

[Macgregor of the North]

I still can't find a reasonable explanation for a few things. 

If Ned had superior Jousting training at the Vale and was a confident jouster, why not enter the lists and challenge the champions openly?. Why is there any need whatsoever for Ned to conceal himself, and never ever let anybody know he was a mystery knight back in 281AC. 

The Ned we know is a cautious, sensible man. Why would he go and gather up mismatched bits of ill fitting armour? If he had been trained all his youth in the art of jousting, he knows the dangers. You can lose your life if not protected correctly, he's not as reckless as that. Lyanna may have been though.

Also, Ned is 18, not 12. He can easily find armour that fits and is not mismatched. There is absolutely no reason on this earth why Ned Stark would have to conceal his identity behind mismatched, non fitting armour that would endanger his person, not even for honour.

 

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Right, but even when Arya gets to Kings Landing, surrounded by knights, she still shows no desire for jousting, even though we find out that she's an excellent rider.

She wants her sword and training accordingly.

And, so far, all we've ever found out about Lyanna martially is that she wanted a sword.

Arya was 9, and over the moon in having a sword trainer, and most particularly wanted nothing to do with tourneys, because Sansa likes them. Arya is a big hint for Lyanna, but they aren't copies, nor is Arya the sole hint for Lyanna. Jaime did think of a "cat" though when watching Loras train for jousting. Hand's Tourney has Loras riding a grey mare that dances bedecked with blue forget-me-nots. I'd also say that revealing Lyanna wanted to joust in the books published so far would be too early in the game, just as it is too early to show Ned training and liking jousting (if he ever did like it), though I fully agree with @Kienn that it's to be expected that Ned had jousting training in the Vale.

Honestly, I find the argument "but Arya isn't interested in jousting" a weak argument, just like "But Ned dislikes tourneys and jousting" is a weak argument. And trying to keep painting Lyanna as "impossible, unless fantasy unrealism" is the literary equivalent of "bad science" (which is worse than pseudoscience). If you have to resort to such arguments to boost your own case, then it makes me increasingly skeptical of the case for Ned, jmho.

[Macgregor of the North]

6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

Amen--that's the one hope for this theory: Fantasy. And the novel is fantasy. No way around it.

 

Isn't that a bit unfair Sly Wren? We get you don't believe it's Lyanna but I think this is a bit much. For so much people to have picked up the certain nods and hints that we believe GRRM has left to lead us to the conclusion that it is indeed Lyanna, you can't really just wave that off and say that the one hope this theory has is that it's fantasy. 

I think the theory has a bit more hope than that. 

The fact it's fantasy should help us with our theories I thought. It should lend a wee bit of magic to the already present clues we believe are more serious bits of evidence.

Instead, it seems this thread has focused a bit too much on real world serious examples to cloud what GRRM may be trying to show us. 

Yes it's fantasy and some things in the books take a bit of a stretch of the imagination sometimes but that's the fun part is it not?. To try and debunk these types of theories with really serious examples takes away that fun sometimes.

I think GRRM has left us enough to link Lyanna to the Knight and not just with magical fantasy type rules applied, so there is more hope to the theory than just fantasy. And if it gets revealed she was indeed the KotLt, maybe we will rely more on the fantasy elements for our theories going forward instead of applying too much real world rules to things in ASOIAF.

 

[Macgregor of the North]

10 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Training we've no evidence Lyanna got.

I'm not sure how much stock you put in the information from the app, but it is information that is part of GRRM's own notes, originally slated to appear in the World book people quote all the time as Canon, written by Ran and Linda from GRRMs own information so can at the least be taken as semi-canon. I personally like to turn to it if there is nothing in the books that directly contradicts it.

In Lyannas own entry in the app it says;

"She was a skilled horsewoman, and practiced at tilting at rings."

Now a direct contradiction in the books to this could read something like this;

"Lyanna was a great horsewoman but not praticed at tilting at rings."

Since there is nothing like this in the books, the only quote in the books remotely similar is that Rickard never allowed Lyanna to carry a sword, then we can say now that there actually is some evidence Lyanna had some jousting related training.

Now before this appears in the app, it must have been in GRRMs notes written somewhere right? I mean these things dont just get made up and added to official apps for nothing. 

[Macgregor of the North]

You know the interesting thing about the comment:

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

"She was a skilled horsewoman, and practiced at tilting at rings."

You can read it two ways i suppose. 1). Like she sometimes practiced at tilting at rings. Which of course doesnt even sound right lol. 

Or

2). (the proper way to read it) She was 'practiced' at tilting at rings, suggesting she was infact very very good at it. To be more precise: "skilled or expert; proficient through practice or experience:".

 

[Sly Wren]

10 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Training she "might" or "might not" have got. There is no hard evidence either way.

Very true. Our only Lyanna specific indicators: She rode very well. Her father wouldn't permit her a sword. And she was afraid at getting caught playing with sticks.

We need more data.

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Arya was 9, and over the moon in having a sword trainer, and most particularly wanted nothing to do with tourneys, because Sansa likes them. Arya is a big hint for Lyanna, but they aren't copies, nor is Arya the sole hint for Lyanna.

I agree. And the idea that Lyanna had martial interests is clearly shown in the novels.

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I'd also say that revealing Lyanna wanted to joust in the books published so far would be too early in the game,

True--Martin's also left out her reaction to the rose crown. Lots of gaps--but he has given us Lyanna's take on men as some hint. And he's also given at least some data that shows Lyanna loving swords. Which really might mean: that's what she loved.

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

just as it is too early to show Ned training and liking jousting (if he ever did like it), though I fully agree with @Kienn that it's to be expected that Ned had jousting training in the Vale.

Right--but given that jousting training seems to be standard training for highborn men, especially fighters, and given that Ned provides precisely that training for his sons and his ward, and that Ned was fostered in the Vale from a rather young age and the Vale is known for knights--given all of that, it seems really, really likely that Ned was at least well-trained.

His proficiency is unknown. But lots of reason to assume he's hat lots of training and practice, no?

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Honestly, I find the argument "but Arya isn't interested in jousting" a weak argument, just like "But Ned dislikes tourneys and jousting" is a weak argument.

All fair. But it does seem like Martin keeps showing us ways Arya and Lyanna are alike--right up to the last image where Bran even mistakes her for Arya.

It's not disqualifying by any means. But it seems like if Martin was going to give a hint of Lyanna's liking jousting, he could have done it with Arya.

But he's left out a LOT about the past--so who knows.

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And trying to keep painting Lyanna as "impossible, unless fantasy unrealism" is the literary equivalent of "bad science" (which is worse than pseudoscience).

Not "impossible unless fantasy realism"--but anyone winning under the Knight's situation is at least bit fantastic, no? 

And in the specific fantasy world Martin has given us so far, successful fighters are trained, no? Even the women.

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

If you have to resort to such arguments to boost your own case, then it makes me increasingly skeptical of the case for Ned, jmho.

All fair. But even if the Knight is Ned, Brandon, Benjen, Howland--quite frankly anyone other than the theories I've seen that it was Arthur or Rhaegar or Jaime or Barristan (none of which makes much sense to me)--one way or another, the Knight pulls off something rather fantastic for a first-time tourney rider. 

For my money, the actual identity of the Knight is less important than that it was most likely a Stark. And a Stark family project. And that Rhaegar figured that out. And wasn't pleased--any more pleased than Bael was please with the Stark in Winterfell.

[Sly Wren]

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Isn't that a bit unfair Sly Wren? We get you don't believe it's Lyanna but I think this is a bit much. For so much people to have picked up the certain nods and hints that we believe GRRM has left to lead us to the conclusion that it is indeed Lyanna, you can't really just wave that off and say that the one hope this theory has is that it's fantasy. 

My apologies for not being clear--not trying to dismiss the theory as "fantasy"--as I've said above, I do think it's possible. Just less likely.

But one way or another, a woman child with no tourney experience defeating three champions would be fantastic, no? Even one of the Starks or Howland would have that same element. In a fantasy novel, such things are clearly possible. But if the Knight were Lyanna, or Howland, or Benjen, or even Ned or Brandon, it would come off as amazing luck.

And would fit with Howland's story to his children of the time the crannogman prayed to the old gods for help and got it.

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I think the theory has a bit more hope than that. 

The fact it's fantasy should help us with our theories I thought. It should lend a wee bit of magic to the already present clues we believe are more serious bits of evidence.

Agreed. Though I'd also add that in the world Martin himself has set up, so far, good fighters are trained.

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I think GRRM has left us enough to link Lyanna to the Knight and not just with magical fantasy type rules applied, so there is more hope to the theory than just fantasy. And if it gets revealed she was indeed the KotLt, maybe we will rely more on the fantasy elements for our theories going forward instead of applying too much real world rules to things in ASOIAF.

Agreed.

4 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I'm not sure how much stock you put in the information from the app, but it is information that is part of GRRM's own notes, originally slated to appear in the World book people quote all the time as Canon, written by Ran and Linda from GRRMs own information so can at the least be taken as semi-canon. I personally like to turn to it if there is nothing in the books that directly contradicts it.

In Lyannas own entry in the app it says;

"She was a skilled horsewoman, and practiced at tilting at rings."

Now a direct contradiction in the books to this could read something like this;

"Lyanna was a great horsewoman but not praticed at tilting at rings."

Since there is nothing like this in the books, the only quote in the books remotely similar is that Rickard never allowed Lyanna to carry a sword, then we can say now that there actually is some evidence Lyanna had some jousting related training.

Now before this appears in the app, it must have been in GRRMs notes written somewhere right? I mean these things dont just get made up and added to official apps for nothing. 

Ah--well, Martin himself has said that it's not canon until it's in the books.

So, I remain very skeptical of non-book app info until it's in the books.

But, one way or another, Martin has left himself room for Lyanna to turn out to have trained. And just hasn't shown it yet. That I can agree on.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Sly Wren said:

It's not disqualifying by any means. But it seems like if Martin was going to give a hint of Lyanna's liking jousting, he could have done it with Arya.

Basically the argument you're suggesting is "Since Martin didn't let the cat out of the bag yet, it's not going to happen". With 2 books to go, the parentage of Jon unconfirmed in the books so far, that's barely an argument.

And how could he have done it with Arya? At WF she's a 9 year old, small sized girl, who doesn't even have a sword yet. She dislikes anything her sister adores. And then she's on the run in the Riverlands and training at Braavos.

He does give a veiled hint, with Jaime thining of a cat as he watches Loras train. We associate cats with Arya, who looks like Lyanna. And Loras was a stand-in Lyanna during the Hand's Tourney. It's a vague hint, nothing near enough to convince me. But we only know breadcrumbs about Benjen, about Brandon Stark, about Ned Stark and about Lyanna, and about HR. More, George is deliberately obtuse about all of them. aDwD has given a few extra breadcrumbs,but not the whole pie.

[Macgregor of the North]

9 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Ah--well, Martin himself has said that it's not canon until it's in the books.

So, I remain very skeptical of non-book app info until it's in the books.

But, one way or another, Martin has left himself room for Lyanna to turn out to have trained. And just hasn't shown it yet. That I can agree on.

I understand your take on it, i am not arguing it IS canon, i am simply saying a statement like this one on Lyanna should most definitely be classed as evidence of jousting related training even if it is semi-canon.

The app to me, is a wee gem. Full of great little bits and bobs that could really be theory makers or breakers sometimes. This description of the app is quite interesting;

"The vast majority of the app really only restates, in more concise form, details that are scattered across the novels; many things you might think are new are just things you’ve forgotten or didn’t quite piece together, in other words! But there are some new details buried in there, both minor and not-so-minor, thanks to a long, long Q&A with GRRM that provided us quite a few details that have never been confirmed before."

It cant be denied that nearly everything we read in that app has been taken from GRRMs own word, and likely glossed over by the man himsef, and this piece of information on Lyanna is massive in regards to how this thread has been going with the assumption that Lyanna had never had any jousting related training, ever.

[Jô Maltese]

Quote

And the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end."...

...

Quote

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Lyanna Stark is tKotLT. It is known.

[Sly Wren]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Basically the argument you're suggesting is "Since Martin didn't let the cat out of the bag yet, it's not going to happen". With 2 books to go, the parentage of Jon unconfirmed in the books so far, that's barely an argument.

Okay--I went back through my posts to make sure--but I'm pretty sure I never said or implied "it's not going to happen."

If I did, I apologize.

My argument: given the info we have and the info Martin has given us about the success of fighters in his world, it is less likely to be the case than the Knight's being Ned--who had the same motive and actual training. On that point, I agree with @Kienn.

And we've been given a fair amount of reason to assume Jon is Lyanna's son. From the evidence I've seen so far, seems like the evidence of Lyanna's being the Knight is less compelling. But I acknowledge that is an innately subjective judgment.

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And how could he have done it with Arya? At WF she's a 9 year old, small sized girl, who doesn't even have a sword yet. She dislikes anything her sister adores.

But she likes what her brothers like--and she's seen them training all the time. And Sansa doesn't want to joust herself--unless I've missed something. Any more than she wants to sword fight herself.

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And then she's on the run in the Riverlands and training at Braavos.

Agreed.

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He does give a veiled hint, with Jaime thining of a cat as he watches Loras train. We associate cats with Arya, who looks like Lyanna. And Loras was a stand-in Lyanna during the Hand's Tourney. It's a vague hint, nothing near enough to convince me.

A fair point.

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But we only know breadcrumbs about Benjen, about Brandon Stark, about Ned Stark and about Lyanna, and about HR. More, George is deliberately obtuse about all of them. aDwD has given a few extra breadcrumbs,but not the whole pie.

True. As for the breadcrumbs pile, I'd also add the Bael Tale.

And there, Bael leaves the roses because he's angry at the Stark. He uses the daughter to get to the Stark man in power.

From that, there's a good chance that either Rhaegar figured out it was one of the Stark men, or it doesn't matter which Stark it is. Rhaegar's not as dense as his father, has figured out it's a Stark, and uses the crowning to insult the Starks for messing with his tourney and plotting with other high lords.

As you say, Martin's pretty obtuse with a lot of his clues. So far, lots of possibilities. But the Knight's identity and it's implications are thus not set. And clues point in more than one direction.

[Macgregor of the North]

35 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Right--but given that jousting training seems to be standard training for highborn men, especially fighters, and given that Ned provides precisely that training for his sons and his ward, and that Ned was fostered in the Vale from a rather young age and the Vale is known for knights--given all of that, it seems really, really likely that Ned was at least well-trained.

His proficiency is unknown. But lots of reason to assume he's hat lots of training and practice, no?

Sorry, im kind of jumping in between you and sweetsunrays convo here, for that i apologise.

If this is true about Ned, which i agree it is very likely he would have had this training, doesnt it make the picture of Eddard Stark bungling on to the Tourney grounds in ill fitting, mismatched armor to challenge three champions sound absolutely ludicrous or is it just me.