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Stark revenge/ Arya's next move


Nocturne

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3 hours ago, Darksky said:

Why do you insist on quoting the books when you're making an argument with relation to the show? Show Jon/Arya are not book Jon/Arya. 

Arya said she's coming home and yet she went straight to the Twins, instead of Castle Black (where she thinks her oh so beloved brother, she briefly and passingly mentioned a handful of times in 6 seasons, is) or Winterfell or even Riverrun/the Eyrie. Her revenge is still her priority.

Current Arya is not the Arya from season 1 or even 4. 

huh? explain. what hints? what is she putting together?

That line was a quote from the show, @Darksky  Did you see the link to the clip?

It's from episode "No one".

2 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

Revenge won't remain Arya's priority for much longer and I've never felt, either in books or show, that her story is ultimately about revenge. The endgame for Arya IMO is a leadership role. I don't know what context that will be in, but everything about her journey screams leader in the making. She has been developing so many of the qualities needed in a good leader.

Yes, totally. Revenge was because of her family, but she never really loved that.

I'm a little afraid of showrunner's statements from last episodes when they said Arya's fans should worry about Arya, so my feeling is that there will be a confrontation between she already wanting to take revenge on Cersei+The Mountain+(anyone else in her list, Melisandre if she's still there, for instance) while, at the same time, wanting to go home. But when she said I'm going home, she was referring to Winterfell, where it's plausible she will meet Jon, Sansa, and Bran if he goes south.

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23 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Arya is wild yes, but she's also very calculated and can control it. Writing her off as 'not a people person' isn't exactly true either. She is described in the books as being able to talk to and make friends with anyone....and there are aspects of that in the show as well. From befriending Mycah to Gendry, Hot Pie, Lommy, even striking a rapport with Lord Tywin and the Hound.

Arya is adaptable and can adjust her approach to her audience in an instant. She's better at that than Jon or any of the Starks. She's also intelligent, cunning and assertive (all important traits of a leader). So I disagree with you.

There are many aspects of Arya's character that make her suited for leadership.As for being more of a spy or someone who works in the shadows...that is not Arya's personality..at all . it is simply what circumstances have driven her to in order to get what she seeks.

If you think Arya's personality is that of someone who prefers to hide from the world and work in covert circumstances, clearly you haven't been paying attention.

The faceless men, Arya's current assassin training, etc, is all leading to a bigger purpose. As for who she would lead, I believe it's too early to tell...but I think her storyline will move forward very quickly in S7 and she will soon be with a group of people amongst whom she will play a leader role.

I agree with that too. While it's true she won't be the perfect one fighting in a battle because of her sword she still has a lot of skills for leadership or for surprise assaults as well.

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26 minutes ago, Gaz0680 said:

Arya is wild yes, but she's also very calculated and can control it. Writing her off as 'not a people person' isn't exactly true either. She is described in the books as being able to talk to and make friends with anyone....and there are aspects of that in the show as well. From befriending Mycah to Gendry, Hot Pie, Lommy, even striking a rapport with Lord Tywin and the Hound.

Arya is adaptable and can adjust her approach to her audience in an instant. She's better at that than Jon or any of the Starks. She's also intelligent, cunning and assertive (all important traits of a leader). So I disagree with you.

There are many aspects of Arya's character that make her suited for leadership.As for being more of a spy or someone who works in the shadows...that is not Arya's personality..at all . it is simply what circumstances have driven her to in order to get what she seeks.

If you think Arya's personality is that of someone who prefers to hide from the world and work in covert circumstances, clearly you haven't been paying attention.

The faceless men, Arya's current assassin training, etc, is all leading to a bigger purpose. As for who she would lead, I believe it's too early to tell...but I think her storyline will move forward very quickly in S7 and she will soon be with a group of people amongst whom she will play a leader role.

When exactly has she expressed her supposed intelligence? In episode 8 of s6 perhaps huh? lol 

So what is that group of people she will soon be with and lead? You mean Brotherhood? They already have leaders. The South already has leaders, the North as well. I doubt any grown men would follow a wild little girl. Like I said she's no Lyanna Mormont.

 

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1 minute ago, Darksky said:

When exactly has she expressed her supposed intelligence? In episode 8 of s6 perhaps huh? lol 

So what is that group of people she will soon be with and lead? You mean Brotherhood? They already have leaders. The South already has leaders, the North as well. I doubt any grown men would follow a wild little girl. Like I said she's no Lyanna Mormont.

 

Well, in that episode (without taking into consideration if it's good or bad writing) she leads the Waif to Arya's hidden place where she is hiding Needle (she put that there in episode 6). I think that could be considered intelligent.

Furthermore, in episode 10, when she manages to enter Walder's house, kill to Freys and cook them in the kitchen while no one sees her could also considered Smart.

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1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Well, in that episode (without taking into consideration if it's good or bad writing) she leads the Waif to Arya's hidden place where she is hiding Needle (she put that there in episode 6). I think that could be considered intelligent.

Furthermore, in episode 10, when she manages to enter Walder's house, kill to Freys and cook them in the kitchen while no one sees her could also considered Smart.

It's intelligence, it's called plot armour, dumbing down characters and cutting corners to have another character reach a certain place. She was stupidly walking around in plain sight, being oblivious to anything and got herself stabbed a few times. Then was walking around, bleeding profusely, until she reached Lady Crane who happened to be excellent at treating stab wounds. Then she was miraculously able to engage in a brutal chase scene, running, jumping around and falling from heights, despite her condition. If not for plot armour, she would be dead. She should be dead.

She didn't manage to enter the Twins as Arya, she was in disguise she was so conveniently able to learn in Braavos (we still don't know how the face thing works). I doubt she actually cooked them (she's never been shown to be able to cook, I doubt she has ever done it. They had servants for that in Winterfell), bet she just cut one of Frey's fingers and stuffed it into a pie she as a servant was to deliver to Walder Frey.

And even if she did what you said, then it's another example of taking a convenient but not explainable route to have a character in a certain place.

 

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1 minute ago, Darksky said:

It's intelligence, it's called plot armour, dumbing down characters and cutting corners to have another character reach a certain place. She was stupidly walking around in plain sight, being oblivious to anything and got herself stabbed a few times. Then was walking around, bleeding profusely, until she reached Lady Crane who happened to be excellent at treating stab wounds. Then she was miraculously able to engage in a brutal chase scene, running, jumping around and falling from heights, despite her condition. If not for plot armour, she would be dead. She should be dead.

She didn't manage to enter the Twins as Arya, she was in disguise she was so conveniently able to learn in Braavos (we still don't know how the face thing works). I doubt she actually cooked them (she's never been shown to be able to cook, I doubt she has ever done it. They had servants for that in Winterfell), bet she just cut one of Frey's fingers and stuffed it into a pie she as a servant was to deliver to Walder Frey.

And even if she did what you said, then it's another example of taking a convenient but not explainable route to have a character in a certain place.

 

I don't disagree it's a plot device for making things happen when it has to happen. But everything Arya has done: cooking Freys, disguising, leading The Waif to her secret place is smart IMO. And that's because of her skills.

You are right that trusting the old Woman and being stabbed is not intelligent. But the rest? She has been surviving 6 seasons, she is intelligent and she is capable of more things.

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It didn't look like it was her deliberate, premeditated plan to lure the Waif to her hiding place. She looked surprised and scared when the Waif showed up at Lady Crane's. Bet she decided to go there on the spur of the moment, during the chase, because that's where she left her weapon.

Arya may very well have been found and killed while she was in deep sleep, trying to recuperate. But the plot armour was strong with this one.

I wouldn't call that as being smart, but acting on survival instinct when threatened and cornered.

I repeat, I very much doubt she cooked anything. She's a noble girl, she was never taught how to. Why would she? Unless she magically acquired a cooking skill with her face changing one.

It's be quick and easy to just put a finger in the pie she was given and ordered to bring it to the Lord. 

 

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I think that it's not only a choice between Winterfell and Kings Landing the most likely option is that Arya will spend the whole season 7 in the Riverlands. But aside of that I still think the North is more likely than KL, though as always it is hard to tell with the show.

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9 minutes ago, Darksky said:

 

I repeat, I very much doubt she cooked anything. She's a noble girl, she was never taught how to. Why would she? Unless she magically acquired a cooking skill with her face changing one.

It's be quick and easy to just put a finger in the pie she was given and ordered to bring it to the Lord. 

 

So The Freys' cookers slaughtered The Freys and put them in the dough pie?

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No, the pie was cooked by the baker/servant/chef of House Frey, then Arya disguised as a 'waitress'/servant girl was given the pie to deliver to Walder. She cut it open, stuffed a finger in it, closed it. Or she threw a finger into the dough right before it was to be baked. The chef had gone out for a moment or was turned away doing something else. She didn't have all of the Frey's sons cooked, just that one part.

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33 minutes ago, Darksky said:

It's intelligence, it's called plot armour, dumbing down characters and cutting corners to have another character reach a certain place. She was stupidly walking around in plain sight, being oblivious to anything and got herself stabbed a few times. Then was walking around, bleeding profusely, until she reached Lady Crane who happened to be excellent at treating stab wounds. Then she was miraculously able to engage in a brutal chase scene, running, jumping around and falling from heights, despite her condition. If not for plot armour, she would be dead. She should be dead.

 

Yes and no. To have any believability the way that episode was written, yes, Arya would be dead. But the writers did a massive disservice to both Arya's character and her storyline in the last few episodes of Season 6. What it should have done is shown how her skills has developed and that she had actually become a match for the Waif. Instead they spent the whole season having Arya get her arse kicked and then end the Braavos arc for her with that ridiculous chase and fight. It was just horrible writing.

I've had the opinion for several seasons that D&D don't write to the story, they write to to their actors...and it has had a detrimental impact on the show as a whole. D&D have consistently given a select few (Lena Headey and Peter Dinklage the most obvious examples) the best material and the most screen time, to the detriment of other characters in the story. Heck in the books, Cersei is important, but not near the extent she has been in the show.

Arya's Braavos storyline both could and should have been written far better than it was. 

 

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While I think there must have been something more than a single finger, that means she was good in disguising (not only with the Face of a waiter the Freys didn't know-as I suppose it was from the HotBaW) but she actually entered the kitchen and studied when the cooker was doing another thing for her moment. She might have also entered the kitchen before to rob a proper knife to cut the fingers of their victims that should have been hidden as well. That is a well-made plan, so Arya is capable of many things, as I mentioned before.

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11 minutes ago, Darksky said:

It didn't look like it was her deliberate, premeditated plan to lure the Waif to her hiding place. She looked surprised and scared when the Waif showed up at Lady Crane's. Bet she decided to go there on the spur of the moment, during the chase, because that's where she left her weapon.

Arya may very well have been found and killed while she was in deep sleep, trying to recuperate. But the plot armour was strong with this one.

I wouldn't call that as being smart, but acting on survival instinct when threatened and cornered.

I repeat, I very much doubt she cooked anything. She's a noble girl, she was never taught how to. Why would she? Unless she magically acquired a cooking skill with her face changing one.

It's be quick and easy to just put a finger in the pie she was given and ordered to bring it to the Lord. 

 

 

Meera of the North had a great a point but what you're saying actually makes her point even more.

Arya purposely left a blood trail for the Waif to follow. Arya thinking on the spot and adapting very quickly to changing circumstances requires intelligence. It's even more remarkable she was able to do all that while bleeding from her wound and realising her best chance of gaining an advantage over the Waif is to bring her into the darkness and catch her by surprise.

You see Arya completely blind and handling poisons by just smell alone. In the books, she does even more: Learning languages including High Valyrian, she memorised the HoBW from just the patterns on the wall and the number of steps and she is able to navigate Braavos by smell alone. She has an excellent memory and we see that from Book 1 all the way through to Braavos. Book!Arya is more intelligent than what D&D have been able to show. 

I assume you just don't read the books either? Because there are many mentions of Arya cooking when she wasn't Arya and a highborn. She cooked while she travelled with Yoren to the Wall (an hunted as well) and with Umma in Braavos. She has done a lot of things highborn girls would not do. 

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4 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

 

Meera of the North had a great a point but what you're saying actually makes her point even more.

Arya purposely left a blood trail for the Waif to follow. Arya thinking on the spot and adapting very quickly to changing circumstances requires intelligence. It's even more remarkable she was able to do all that while bleeding from her wound and realising her best chance of gaining an advantage over the Waif is to bring her into the darkness and catch her by surprise.

That's what makes it unrealistic and contrived.

5 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

I  assume you just don't read the books either? Because there are many mentions of Arya cooking when she wasn't Arya and a highborn. She cooked while she travelled with Yoren to the Wall (an hunted as well) and with Umma in Braavos. She has done a lot of things highborn girls would not do. 

I read the books once, years ago. Never bothered to reread them, they have no reread value to me. So I don't really remember much from them, especially details like that.

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Contrived or not, it doesn't support the argument that Arya is not intelligent or capable enough to be a leader or even be of very good help in the wars to come, but the contrary.

And that is what we are referring to. We are shown these things for a reason.

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2 hours ago, Gaz0680 said:

Arya is wild yes, but she's also very calculated and can control it. Writing her off as 'not a people person' isn't exactly true either. She is described in the books as being able to talk to and make friends with anyone....and there are aspects of that in the show as well. From befriending Mycah to Gendry, Hot Pie, Lommy, even striking a rapport with Lord Tywin and the Hound.

Arya is adaptable and can adjust her approach to her audience in an instant. She's better at that than Jon or any of the Starks. She's also intelligent, cunning and assertive (all important traits of a leader). So I disagree with you.

There are many aspects of Arya's character that make her suited for leadership.As for being more of a spy or someone who works in the shadows...that is not Arya's personality..at all . it is simply what circumstances have driven her to in order to get what she seeks.

If you think Arya's personality is that of someone who prefers to hide from the world and work in covert circumstances, clearly you haven't been paying attention.

The faceless men, Arya's current assassin training, etc, is all leading to a bigger purpose. As for who she would lead, I believe it's too early to tell...but I think her storyline will move forward very quickly in S7 and she will soon be with a group of people amongst whom she will play a leader role.

I love how you got literally NO argument to 99% of what you wrote here by Darksky. Well done Gaz!

The description of the character Darksky seems to know as "Arya" doesn't even exist. It's actually laughable! The same raging, confrontational, wild, mad, psychotic, anti-social, moron Darksky thinks Arya is - somehow she can spend hours in complete silence, blind on a street corner, memorising the foreign coins in her begging bowl with only her thoughts to keep her entertained. SO UNCONTROLLABLE! The same girl who would save a 3 year old orphan girl everyone else wanted to leave for dead - so heartless and a people-hater! The same girl who felt pity for 3 dangerous men and risked her life to save them from a horrible death of burning alive. The same unintelligent people-hating girl who jumped off her horse and gave water to dying Northmen who she considered a part of her pack. So anti-social, she missed being Cat of the Canals (she loved being Cat) and spending time on the ships and the harbour, listening to stories about Aegon and his Sister Wives, making friends and learning riddles, languages and new tricks.

Arya the anti-social lurker who interacts with "fishermen, outlaws, soldiers, whores, mummers, assassins, poisoners, politicians, lords and ladies, squires, grooms, serving girls, freeriders, butcher boys, porters, brewers, bakers, braavos, beggars, smiths, apprentices, Night Watch members and recruits, sailmenders, ropemakers, taverners, courtesans, guardsmen, water dancers, ect."  

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[Merry’s] girls were nice as well; Blushing Bethany and the Sailor’s Wife, one-eyed Yna who could tell your fortune from a drop of blood, pretty little Lanna, even Assadora, the Ibbenese woman with the mustache. They might not be beautiful, but they were kind to her. (Cat of the Canals, A Feast for Crows)

Ew. People-hater Arya appreciating kindness. 

Gaz, have you read this fantastic meta on Arya's traits for Leadership and Queendom?

http://ashotofjac.tumblr.com/post/143186696353

A breakdown of Vary's speech on a Just Ruler and how is applies to Arya:

http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/71675822840/okay-heres-the-second-half-of-this-message-for

 

D&D know the main plot points for the main characters. So whatever ending Arya has, surviving and taking on a Leadership role in the future will likely happen. How she gets there, we are at the mercy of D&D's imagination. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Darksky said:

That's what makes it unrealistic and contrived.

That's D&D fault if you think that. That doesn't negate her obvious intelligence and quick thinking, better demonstrated in the books by GRRM. 

D&D have these writing problems BECAUSE they messed with GRRM's storylines. They had to condense so much of Arya's time in Braavos (GRRM loves writing those chapters btw and said he would write a whole book on just Braavos if he had the time) but the complex story with the FM/Arya/Braavos has been condensed by two show writers who writing blind. Arya will not leave Braavos in Winds in anyway similar to the TV show. 

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I read the books once, years ago. Never bothered to reread them, they have no reread value to me. So I don't really remember much from them, especially details like that.

Maybe you should do a re-read sometime? You get some more from the story that way. 

 

 

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As @DutchArya says, I agree that Arya is not antisocial or stupid at all. In the books, it is pretty clear, in Braavos she meets a lot of people, but the show portraits her socialising with Yoren, Gendry, Hot Pie, The Hound....

and even in SHowBraavos we have an equivalent: Lady Crane, instead of killing her, she befriends her.

 

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36 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

As @DutchArya says, I agree that Arya is not antisocial or stupid at all. In the books, it is pretty clear, in Braavos she meets a lot of people, but the show portraits her socialising with Yoren, Gendry, Hot Pie, The Hound....

and even in SHowBraavos we have an equivalent: Lady Crane, instead of killing her, she befriends her.

 

 

Absolutely. The fact that she most identifies with Cat also speaks volumes on what kind of person or life Arya would prefer to have. And lets not forget her direwolf currently leading as well. 

Speaking of Cat, I really loved this bit and sense some foreshadowing as well:

Cats liked the smell of Cat. Some days she would have a dozen trailing after her before the sun went down. From time to time the girl would throw an oyster at them and watch to see who came away with it. The biggest toms would seldom win, she noticed; oft as not, the prize went to some smaller, quicker animal, thin and mean and hungry. Like me, she told herself. Her favorite was a scrawny old tom with a chewed ear who reminded her of a cat that she'd once chased all around the Red Keep. No, that was some other girl, not me. - Arya

 

Arya is the Black Swan in asoiaf; an unexpected, logical (in hindsight) surprise is waiting. 

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22 minutes ago, DutchArya said:

 

Absolutely. The fact that she most identifies with Cat also speaks volumes on what kind of person or life Arya would prefer to have. And lets not forget her direwolf currently leading as well. 

Speaking of Cat, I really loved this bit and sense some foreshadowing as well:

Cats liked the smell of Cat. Some days she would have a dozen trailing after her before the sun went down. From time to time the girl would throw an oyster at them and watch to see who came away with it. The biggest toms would seldom win, she noticed; oft as not, the prize went to some smaller, quicker animal, thin and mean and hungry. Like me, she told herself. Her favorite was a scrawny old tom with a chewed ear who reminded her of a cat that she'd once chased all around the Red Keep. No, that was some other girl, not me. - Arya

And that's interesting because that's exactly the qualities that Arya has. Small, quick, precise, like Needle. 

Arya can pass unseen and agile, like a cat, and that's also good in assaulting if she is where she has to be and the strategy is planned well.

It's also good to run away quickly, and hide.

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Arya is the Black Swan in asoiaf; an unexpected, logical (in hindsight) surprise is waiting. 

Yes, I agree with that. And the cat reference might also be foreshadowing of that. Sometimes the smallest wins. The one nobody is expecting to win.

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