Stark revenge/ Arya's next move

[Karmarni]

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It would be wrong to change Arya's type of revenge because of predictability. One can't change the characterisation of a character because of that. I was worried because the finale sof s5 and s6 showed a different Arya, that seemed to enjoy bloody murders, but I came to the conclusion that this was because she was actually avenging her family after all that time, and she never forgets why is she doing it, and also because finales have to be more "epic" or "shocking".

ShowArya is not a sadist, she cares about people, befriends them, even can put herself in the mind of Cersei and try to understand her (which is quite a difficult thing), and she saying "I'm Arya Stark" made it clear for us. Of course having killed some people is something that she will have to deal with, but let's not forget that almost every main character has done it as well.

IMO  they could make us think she is troubled and I believe they will play with it, but ultimately she doesn't like killing just for the "pleasure" of killing and it is very clear she wants to go home. At most, she would like to be in a battle, but isn't the same Jon, or Sansa want if it is needed?

Well, I don't think the Hound would be a surrogate father  to Arya, but a friend

I agree. The show is playing around with their two-dimensional characters, while the novels have the complete 3D versions. So the show likes to play up certain facets of the characters' personalities, and in the case of Arya, it is her killer side. It makes for more 'dramatically satisfying' (/sarcasm) tv. Nevertheless, I do think it is apropos to look at the book version that inspired the tv version. And that the novels' Arya is still Arya Stark, with the training of an assassin, but the friends-with-everyone young woman who is worried about what her family might think of the person she has become. I firmly believe that she will need to deal with her underlying need for acceptance and to reconcile her blood-thirsty ways. And that's where the Hound comes in for Arya. There was more meaning of his encountering her outside of getting her from point A to point B. Not only did we see the Hound with new eyes outside of Sansa's, but his own suffering was highlighted too. He is not, a "surrogate father" to Arya, but a character who has suffered in a similar way. His 'training' though, on the QI (with Ray and the Beric/Thoros in the show) is that there can be a different way. Revenge can be sought, but it ought to be swift and not include suffering. 

So, as I've said in book threads, the Hound is the character who can help Arya recover herself and I think he will be that character in the show too. Of course, I think they will seek different ways in pursuing this psychological 'redemption' because each has another character who will bring to them the acceptance that they crave, for Sandor, that is Sansa. For Arya that is Jon.

[MoreOrLess]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It would be wrong to change Arya's type of revenge because of predictability. One can't change the characterisation of a character because of that. I was worried because the finale sof s5 and s6 showed a different Arya, that seemed to enjoy bloody murders, but I came to the conclusion that this was because she was actually avenging her family after all that time, and she never forgets why is she doing it, and also because finales have to be more "epic" or "shocking".

ShowArya is not a sadist, she cares about people, befriends them, even can put herself in the mind of Cersei and try to understand her (which is quite a difficult thing), and she saying "I'm Arya Stark" made it clear for us. Of course having killed some people is something that she will have to deal with, but let's not forget that almost every main character has done it as well.

IMO  they could make us think she is troubled and I believe they will play with it, but ultimately she doesn't like killing just for the "pleasure" of killing and it is very clear she wants to go home. At most, she would like to be in a battle, but isn't the same Jon, or Sansa want if it is needed?

Well, I don't think the Hound would be a surrogate father  to Arya, but a friend

Personally I think its more that there looking to highlight aspects of her character potentially in conflict, she does still have compassion for others as evidence with Lady Crane and hints at her feelings for the Hound but equally your talking about someone who has suffered massive emotional damage at a very young age and is using revenge as a coping mechanism having indeed been around two men with similar outlooks in Yoren and Sandor. The key is surely the scene just after the Red Wedding killing the Frey soliders, the alternative in that situation could have been suicide or madness.

I think last season was basically the story or Ayra not being able to give up her compassion to become the emotionless killer the FM wanted but not her overcoming her revenge focus that will potentially be a climax next season or later. Again I think Cersei seems like a good focus for her because it might provide a chance to further than story and shift it to redemption, perhaps showing some compassion for Cersei and/or giving up on killing her for revenge in favour of stopping her destroying KL with wildfire.

[Le Cygne]

On 9/4/2016 at 4:14 PM, DutchArya said:

Then, so faintly, it seemed as if she heard her father’s voice. “When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives,” he said.

That's a good one! Arya is the North. She's got it all.

"I'm Arya Stark of Winterfell and I'm going home" is a pretty bold statement about identity, with family, with North. That's where she'll do good. Winter is coming, those are the Stark words, and they should stick together, and look after each other, that's what Ned told her. She may have an interlude in the Riverlands, since they cut LSH, but her story is in the North. She's Arya Stark of Winterfell, and that's her home.

Here's that again, I love the way she said it:

"A girl is Arya Stark of Winterfell, and I'm going home."

[Le Cygne]

Also, Dany, Tyrion, Jaime, Ellaria, and Olenna have scores to settle with Cersei. There's plenty going on in KL next season with all of that going on.

Jaime stopped Aerys from using wildfire, it's poetic if he's the one to stop Cersei. Dany wants the throne Cersei usurped. Cersei tried to kill Tyrion.

Then there's Ellaria, too. Oberyn died in KL. And one who killed him is there, doing Cersei's bidding. Olenna is not too happy with Cersei, either.

[MoreOrLess]

40 minutes ago, Le Cygne said:

"I'm Arya Stark of Winterfell and I'm going home" is a pretty bold statement about identity, with family, with North. That's where she'll do good. Winter is coming, those are the Stark words, and they should stick together, and look after each other, that's what Ned told her. She may have an interlude in the Riverlands, since they cut LSH, but her story is in the North. She's Arya Stark of Winterfell, and that's her home.

You do need to consider the situation where she says it though, she's in Essos and talking to Jaqen who wanted her to give up her identity entirely. In those circumstance I think "Ayra Stark of WInterfell" could be taken to refer to her identity(the link between your family name and their traditional seat of power is after all very important and often mentioned "The Tully's of Riverrun" by Ayra herself for example) and "I'm going home" could refer to Westeros.

One thing to consider as well is that even if its somewhat of a triumphant expression I don't think you could consider that a "happy ending" for Ayra's sub story in Bravos. Look back at what had just happened, Ayra was being tended to by Lady Crane and seemed happier than she had been since season one. She wasn't happy because she was planning her return to Westeros and fighting for the Stark name, she was happy because firstly the person in along time she's shown compassion to had shown it back to her and also because she was talking about potentially leaving her family history behind to become an adventurer/actor(rather than a heartless killer for the FM). In that situation leaving her family legacy behind also means leaving the pain of her past behind and the revenge focus needed to cope with that

That's snuffed out though when more of her history returns in the Waif and kills Lady Crane before putting her in a fight for her life again after which she rips off the face of her would be killer. The next time we see her she's back focused on revenge again taking pleasuring in killing Walder and co.

I see a pretty clear similarity there with The Hound who gives up violence only to have his chance at a more peaceful life destroyed that sets him back on the road to violent revenge.

[Le Cygne]

3 hours ago, Karmarni said:

So, as I've said in book threads, the Hound is the character who can help Arya recover herself and I think he will be that character in the show too. Of course, I think they will seek different ways in pursuing this psychological 'redemption' because each has another character who will bring to them the acceptance that they crave, for Sandor, that is Sansa. For Arya that is Jon.

Yeah, they made it clear there's a difference now. The said this for Sandor: "He's a more thoughtful person... He's really thinking about his past in a way he never had before... He's starting to see that there's perhaps a different way of living your life. The unfortunate ugly reality is the kind of pacifism Ray is preaching is often suicidal when you are in the middle of the world they are all in." And that's the reality for Arya, too. They are good fighters, but now it's time for a more directed story, with something worth fighting for. And that's where the acceptance you are talking about comes in.

[Meera of Tarth]

But even with Lady Crane IIRC she asked her if they could go to Westeros...and that was before the Waif killed the actress.

[MoreOrLess]

4 hours ago, Karmarni said:

I agree. The show is playing around with their two-dimensional characters, while the novels have the complete 3D versions. So the show likes to play up certain facets of the characters' personalities, and in the case of Arya, it is her killer side. It makes for more 'dramatically satisfying' (/sarcasm) tv. Nevertheless, I do think it is apropos to look at the book version that inspired the tv version. And that the novels' Arya is still Arya Stark, with the training of an assassin, but the friends-with-everyone young woman who is worried about what her family might think of the person she has become. I firmly believe that she will need to deal with her underlying need for acceptance and to reconcile her blood-thirsty ways. And that's where the Hound comes in for Arya. There was more meaning of his encountering her outside of getting her from point A to point B. Not only did we see the Hound with new eyes outside of Sansa's, but his own suffering was highlighted too. He is not, a "surrogate father" to Arya, but a character who has suffered in a similar way. His 'training' though, on the QI (with Ray and the Beric/Thoros in the show) is that there can be a different way. Revenge can be sought, but it ought to be swift and not include suffering. 

So, as I've said in book threads, the Hound is the character who can help Arya recover herself and I think he will be that character in the show too. Of course, I think they will seek different ways in pursuing this psychological 'redemption' because each has another character who will bring to them the acceptance that they crave, for Sandor, that is Sansa. For Arya that is Jon.

The show often can't have the depth of character of the books I'd agree(partly length, partly the more episodic media with no internal monolog) but I have to say though a lot of the arguments in this thread don't seem to be espousing a "3d character". They seem to look to interpret her as having a single motivation to return home with no inner conflict and a desire to see her put her skills to use to defeat opponents in an honourable fashion. All too often I think we see people claiming great dramatic depth to their pet theories drawn from the books when what there actually after is rather simplified fan service of their favourite character.

I would say The Hound is certainly fatherly in some respects to Ayra in season 4, he does protect her a number of times and also looks to impart a good deal of his own world view to her although I'd not sure the distinction between that and a friend/mentor really matters. I do agree that he's likely key to her potential redemption as well either earning it along side her, espousing it to her or perhaps simply by one saving the other from danger.

That's why at the very least I think if she does end up going north it will only be after spending a good deal of time in the Riverlands (not necessarily in any wider political conflict but with The Hound, BwB and Mel) and if she gets to WF next season becomes involved in politics with Sansa and LF.

[Le Cygne]

5 hours ago, Karmarni said:

His 'training' though, on the QI (with Ray and the Beric/Thoros in the show) is that there can be a different way. Revenge can be sought, but it ought to be swift and not include suffering.

There's this, too. MF's that "need to be murked" - that's justice. LF is toast.

Quote

What’s been exciting is seeing the glimmers of humanity behind The Hound’s scarred exterior. And then seeing him shove aside those glimmers, when necessary, and murk motherfuckers that need to be murked.

http://deadline.com/2016/08/game-of-thrones-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-emmys-interview-1201803698/