Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Grey King and the Sea Dragon

[Crowfood's Daughter]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 3:22 PM, LmL said:

Hey, didn't you have some discovery re: the etymology of Elenei's name? Something that ties her to mermaids? I'm writing about that right now 

Just remembered this from that mermaid/courtesan  convo.  The possibility that the Grey King literally "took" his mermaid to wife.  "Salt wives" are most often captured during raids.  I can't think of any wife who could possibly be saltier than a mermaid.  I had noticed the passages always mention something to the effect of he took his mermaid wife.

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"Aeron recalled. Here he took his mermaid wife and planned his wars against the Storm God."

 

"The Greyjoys of Pyke claim descent from the Grey King of the Age of Heroes. Legend says the Grey King ruled not only the western isles but the sea itself, and took a mermaid to wife."

 

"The Grey King ruled the sea itself and took a mermaid to wife, so his sons and daughters might live above the waves or beneath them as they chose."

 

 

 

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

Just got finished listening to the new podcast. 

Question.  Is a "green sea dragon" a green comet or a piece of black meteor that falls into the ocean?   If the latter, why is it green?   I understand that it symbolizes a greenseer, but I'm wondering what it literally represents.  

The 'green sea dragon' need not literally be green.  Note the ambiguity inherent in that phrase...which might either refer to a green dragon in a sea of your choosing, or a green sea in which a dragon of any color is immersed.  Think of the sigil of House Donniger (a red sun dipping into a grey-green  sea).  In that case, the burning-red sun represents a fiery greenseer like Bran the burning brand dipping into the grey-green milieu of the greenseer.

I think the meteor may be the source of some kind of magical transformation in the world, designated 'green magic' which still in my opinion is focused -- as all magic is -- around fire and blood (which inevitably entails an element of abomination and catastrophic fallout, in exchange for the dubious 'gift' that is the double-edged sword-without-a-hilt of knowledge).  

Underscoring this symbolic relation, for example the Ash River in Asshai glows with an otherworldly green phosphorescence, as I think @hiemal was also recently highlighting in another thread (the green mossy tinge leeching from the Neck into the Green Fork of the Trident is along the same symbolic lines):

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Bones and Beyond: Asshai-by-the-Shadow

Despite its forbidding aspects, Asshai-by-the-Shadow has for many centuries been a thriving port, where ships from all over the known world come to trade, crossing vast and stormy seas. Most arrive laden with foodstuffs and wine, for beyond the walls of Asshai little grows save ghost grass, whose glassy, glowing stalks are inedible. If not for the food brought in from across the sea, the Asshai'i would have starved.

The ships bring casks of freshwater too. The waters of the Ash glisten black beneath the noonday sun and glimmer with a pale green phosphorescence by night, and such fish as swim in the river are blind and twisted, so deformed and hideous to look upon that only fools and shadowbinders will eat of their flesh.

The river is time (the 'ash' tree Yggdrasil is associated with the well or web of Urdr, which constitutes the interwoven fabric of space-time as spun by the Norns/fates).  The fish caught in the 'fish garth' -- 'blind...twisted...deformed' -- symbolises Bran (a Tully mermaid, now without his legs, 'under the sea/see'), who is simultaneously the 'fool and shadowbinder' eating of their flesh.  In a similar vein, recall the eerie 'symbiotic marriage' of greenseer and weirwood tree, in which it's difficult to say who is the eater and who is being eaten (in other words, 'who is the hunter; and who the hunted'?)

[Pain killer Jane]

47 minutes ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

Just remembered this from that mermaid/courtesan  convo.  The possibility that the Grey King literally "took" his mermaid to wife.  "Salt wives" are most often captured during raids.  I can't think of any wife who could possibly be saltier than a mermaid.  I had noticed the passages always mention something to the effect of he took his mermaid wife.

 

 

I went back and I read your reply to LmL's question about Elenei and  your connections with Serenei. The direct way to connect your deductions is first Donella Manderly, a mermaid that married the Lord of Hornwood and then was stolen on her way home by Ramsay (since AA and the Grey King are connected) forcibly married and locked away in a tower. And she was said to be good looking in her mature age. 

And you mentioned that Sara is the verb to sing such as serenade, like Rheagar did to Lyanna and perhaps what he would do when he would sleep under the night sky among the ruins of Summerhall and come back with new songs. 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

8 minutes ago, Pain killer Jane said:

I went back and I read your reply to LmL's question about Elenei and  your connections with Serenei. The direct way to connect your deductions is first Donella Manderly, a mermaid that married the Lord of Hornwood and then was stolen on her way home by Ramsay (since AA and the Grey King are connected) forcibly married and locked away in a tower. And she was said to be good looking in her mature age. 

And you mentioned that Sara is the verb to sing such as serenade, like Rheagar did to Lyanna and perhaps what he would do when he would sleep under the night sky among the ruins of Summerhall and come back with new songs. 

really great example with Donella Manderly, I had never caught that. 

[LmL]

28 minutes ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

really great example with Donella Manderly, I had never caught that. 

Indeed, that's yet another great king horned Lord type marrying a mermaid. We all know that if we looked in Donella's wardrobe, we will find gowns of silver seaweed, LOL.

In answer to @Isobel Harper, I would concur with RR that the green is primarily symbolic when we are talking about a green dragon, just as the sea is primarily symbolic when talking about the sea dragon. The Sea Dragon and Thunderbolt / burningtree myths are both expressing the fire of the Gods dichotomy, where would fire and meteor fire. Both Legends refer to both. So there is an aspect of the Sea Dragon myth which is referring to a literal meteor impact in the ocean, or near enough to the ocean to trigger tidal waves. I would assume the meteor would be black, like the seastone chair, and in fact it may have been the seastone chair itself. So the only thing that is literally green is the sea. The deeper metaphor is about a dragon person going into the weirwoodnet, into the green see.

[LmL]

And with that, I will kindly ask all of you lovely folks to migrate over to the new thread that I just posted! Woot!

[Pain killer Jane]

7 minutes ago, LmL said:

And with that, I will kindly ask all of you lovely folks to migrate over to the new thread that I just posted! Woot!

Will do I have something about the fertility/infertility we were talking about in Paetron. 

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The 'green sea dragon' need not literally be green.  Note the ambiguity inherent in that phrase...which might either refer to a green dragon in a sea of your choosing, or a green sea in which a dragon of any color is immersed.  Think of the sigil of House Donniger (a red sun dipping into a grey-green  sea).  In that case, the burning-red sun represents a fiery greenseer like Bran the burning brand dipping into the grey-green milieu of the greenseer.

I think the meteor may be the source of some kind of magical transformation in the world, designated 'green magic' which still in my opinion is focused -- as all magic is -- around fire and blood (which inevitably entails an element of abomination and catastrophic fallout, in exchange for the dubious 'gift' that is the double-edged sword-without-a-hilt of knowledge).  

Underscoring this symbolic relation, for example the Ash River in Asshai glows with an otherworldly green phosphorescence, as I think @hiemal was also recently highlighting in another thread (the green mossy tinge leeching from the Neck into the Green Fork of the Trident is along the same symbolic lines):

The river is time (the 'ash' tree Yggdrasil is associated with the well or web of Urdr, which constitutes the interwoven fabric of space-time as spun by the Norns/fates).  The fish caught in the 'fish garth' -- 'blind...twisted...deformed' -- symbolises Bran (a Tully mermaid, now without his legs, 'under the sea/see'), who is simultaneously the 'fool and shadowbinder' eating of their flesh.  In a similar vein, recall the eerie 'symbiotic marriage' of greenseer and weirwood tree, in which it's difficult to say who is the eater and who is being eaten (in other words, 'who is the hunter; and who the hunted'?)

Not me, I'm afraid, but I do share the sentiment that the Neck and Moat Cailin and the Shadow and Asshai are symbolic "twins"- the sites of ancient catastrophes that changed the land forever. Continuing this parallel I am forced to wonder if the Westerosi equivalent of Stygai might not be the Land of Always Winter. 

I'm also interested in what might be discovered comparing shadowbinders, who eat foul fish, are recognized and shunned by others and who are rumored to know ancient secrets, and the crannogmen who eat frogs, are recognized and shunned by others and who are rumored to know ancient secrets.

 

[Isobel Harper]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The 'green sea dragon' need not literally be green.  Note the ambiguity inherent in that phrase...which might either refer to a green dragon in a sea of your choosing, or a green sea in which a dragon of any color is immersed.  Think of the sigil of House Donniger (a red sun dipping into a grey-green  sea).  In that case, the burning-red sun represents a fiery greenseer like Bran the burning brand dipping into the grey-green milieu of the greenseer.

I think the meteor may be the source of some kind of magical transformation in the world, designated 'green magic' which still in my opinion is focused -- as all magic is -- around fire and blood (which inevitably entails an element of abomination and catastrophic fallout, in exchange for the dubious 'gift' that is the double-edged sword-without-a-hilt of knowledge).  

Underscoring this symbolic relation, for example the Ash River in Asshai glows with an otherworldly green phosphorescence, as I think @hiemal was also recently highlighting in another thread (the green mossy tinge leeching from the Neck into the Green Fork of the Trident is along the same symbolic lines):

The river is time (the 'ash' tree Yggdrasil is associated with the well or web of Urdr, which constitutes the interwoven fabric of space-time as spun by the Norns/fates).  The fish caught in the 'fish garth' -- 'blind...twisted...deformed' -- symbolises Bran (a Tully mermaid, now without his legs, 'under the sea/see'), who is simultaneously the 'fool and shadowbinder' eating of their flesh.  In a similar vein, recall the eerie 'symbiotic marriage' of greenseer and weirwood tree, in which it's difficult to say who is the eater and who is being eaten (in other words, 'who is the hunter; and who the hunted'?)

 

2 hours ago, LmL said:

Indeed, that's yet another great king horned Lord type marrying a mermaid. We all know that if we looked in Donella's wardrobe, we will find gowns of silver seaweed, LOL.

In answer to @Isobel Harper, I would concur with RR that the green is primarily symbolic when we are talking about a green dragon, just as the sea is primarily symbolic when talking about the sea dragon. The Sea Dragon and Thunderbolt / burningtree myths are both expressing the fire of the Gods dichotomy, where would fire and meteor fire. Both Legends refer to both. So there is an aspect of the Sea Dragon myth which is referring to a literal meteor impact in the ocean, or near enough to the ocean to trigger tidal waves. I would assume the meteor would be black, like the seastone chair, and in fact it may have been the seastone chair itself. So the only thing that is literally green is the sea. The deeper metaphor is about a dragon person going into the weirwoodnet, into the green see.

Thanks, y'all!   Makes total sense. 

[LmL]

11 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

 

Thanks, y'all!   Makes total sense. 

Yes, it's as clear as Mudd, ha ha

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Just found this maybe grey king/garth is a Cain and Abel archtype.  Nagga's bones= Cain's twigs.  I kinda love this idea.
 

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Allusions to Cain and Abel as an archetype of fratricide appear in numerous references and retellings, through medieval art and Shakespearean works up to present day fiction.^[17] A millennia-old explanation for Cain being capable of murder is that he may have been the offspring of a fallen angel or Satan himself, rather than being from Adam.^[18][19][20]

A medieval legend has Cain arriving at the Moon, where he eternally settled with a bundle of twigs. This was originated by the popular fantasy of interpreting the shadows on the Moon as a face. An example of this belief can be found in Dante Alighieri's Inferno (XX, 126^[21]) where the expression "Cain and the twigs" is used as a kenning for "moon".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_and_Abel

 

 

 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Speaking of weirwood thrones.  Have you ever thought of the idea of unreliable narrator when it comes to ebony?  How easy is to tell one black wood from another black wood?  Blackwood, get it? This is pretty nuts, but if you exchange the words ebony with Shade of the evening tree wood, you get Danny sitting on basically the essosi equivalent of a weirwood throne.  You also get a white weirwood/black wierwood door at the HotU (makes a lot of sense because those are the shade drinkers and there is a shade tree right outside the HotU).  This also makes the Black and white doors at the HoBaW  a black/white weirwood door, and white weirwood chairs with black weirwood faces and black weirwood chairs with white weirwood faces.  I know it sounds nuts but it makes a whole lot more literary sense if you just get the idea that it might be hard to tell one rare wood apart from another rare wood in the POVs. 

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, Crowfood's Daughter said:

Speaking of weirwood thrones.  Have you ever thought of the idea of unreliable narrator when it comes to ebony?  How easy is to tell one black wood from another black wood?  Blackwood, get it? This is pretty nuts, but if you exchange the words ebony with Shade of the evening tree wood, you get Danny sitting on basically the essosi equivalent of a weirwood throne.  You also get a white weirwood/black wierwood door at the HotU (makes a lot of sense because those are the shade drinkers and there is a shade tree right outside the HotU).  This also makes the Black and white doors at the HoBaW  a black/white weirwood door, and white weirwood chairs with black weirwood faces and black weirwood chairs with white weirwood faces.  I know it sounds nuts but it makes a whole lot more literary sense if you just get the idea that it might be hard to tell one rare wood apart from another rare wood in the POVs. 

I do think that in terms of symbolism, all the black wood is playing into the same larger idea. It doesn't matter if it's ebony and not shade of the evening trees; ebony can stand in, certainly. 

Burnt trees are blackened trees. Trees struck by lightning are blackened trees. So the black wood kind of leads right back to weirwoods - burning trees. Weirs are like in suspended animation at the moment of burning, really, a flame that is not consumed if you will (corroborating my identification of the burning tree and the burning sword as the 2 twin forms of the fire of the gods). They should be black trees in a moment, after their fire goes out. The Blackwoods have a literally dead weirwood, so you get the idea. The Shade Trees are in some ways perfect analogs to weirs - the paste and shade wine especially are the same thing - but the color scheme is inverted. The blue shadow heart makes you think of the others, as do the blue shadows of the undying. So I am not quite sure what to make of all of that. 

In the white sword tower, a weirwood tree symbol and Dawn symbol, everything is white, including the weirwood table... excpet the chair of the LC, which is black wood. From under that chair, Jaime pulls the black sword, Oathkeeper. I see a black meteor inside a weirwood, what do you make of it?