Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire: the Grey King and the Sea Dragon

[Equilibrium]

You have probably heard of Thorium.

Radioactive, longest half life, it can exist in asteroids, it gets name from Norse god of thunder.

And it looks like this

http://www.shockingscience.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/879/2015/12/pics9.jpg

Oily black stone

[LmL]

11 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

You have probably heard of Thorium.

Radioactive, longest half life, it can exist in asteroids, it gets name from Norse god of thunder.

And it looks like this

http://www.shockingscience.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/879/2015/12/pics9.jpg

Oily black stone

That's a pretty sweet one man, no I have not heard of it. I don' know that we will ever know what the exact deal is with the greasy stone and the meteorites but this is one of the better finds. Especially the Thor connection. 

[Bluetiger]

I didn't know where to post it, but I think it fits here...

Today I was reasearching germanic and anglo-saxon month names, as I was looking for inspiration for month names in world about I'm currently writing short story.... and I found something rather curious...

 

In Anglo-Saxon and Germanic original calandar, the one used before another was adapted, name of October was Winterfylleth. According to Wikipedia it marked and celebrated beggining of winter. Saint Bede wrote: 'The old English people split the year into two seasons, summer and winter, placing six months — during which the days are longer than the nights — in summer, and the other six in winter. They called the month when the winter season began Wintirfylliþ, a word composed of "winter" and "full moon", because winter began on the first full moon of that month. '
During that time known as Winter Nights three sacrifices were carried out. After October there was Blót, the month of sacrifces...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterfylleth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Nights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blót

 

It seems GRRM knows some German, there is a lot of nordic inspirations and references,  so maybe this had some influence on Winterfell's name? Is it possible that Winterfell isn't place where the winter has fallen but where it rose?

 

There's also a metal band bearing that name, but it was formed in 2007 so it's probably not relevant.

 

 

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

I didn't know where to post it, but I think it fits here...

Today I was reasearching germanic and anglo-saxon month names, as I was looking for inspiration for month names in world about I'm currently writing short story.... and I found something rather curious...

 

In Anglo-Saxon and Germanic original calandar, the one used before another was adapted, name of October was Winterfylleth. According to Wikipedia it marked and celebrated beggining of winter. Saint Bede wrote: 'The old English people split the year into two seasons, summer and winter, placing six months — during which the days are longer than the nights — in summer, and the other six in winter. They called the month when the winter season began Wintirfylliþ, a word composed of "winter" and "full moon", because winter began on the first full moon of that month. '
During that time known as Winter Nights three sacrifices were carried out. After October there was Blót, the month of sacrifces...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterfylleth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Nights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blót

 

It seems GRRM knows some German, there is a lot of nordic inspirations and references,  so maybe this had some influence on Winterfell's name? Is it possible that Winterfell isn't place where the winter has fallen but where it rose?

 

There's also a metal band bearing that name, but it was formed in 2007 so it's probably not relevant.

 

 

What's interesting about this is that Blot is when sacrifices are made to the Tomti / Nisse, which is a type of elf / woodland spirit which is associated with burial mounds and farmsteads. This is the same word Nisse - which can be translated as "helpful elf," as I noted way back when I was talking about Nissa Nissa in the first essay. According to my theory Nissa Nissa was sacrificed when winter fell - when the full, pregnant moon gave birth to dragons. That all lines up, doesn't it? Instead of sacrificing TO the Nisse man at winter's onset, we sacrifice the Nissa Nissa woman at winter's onset. This is also strengthens my idea about Winterfell and the King of Winter - that he represents he atonement of AA. Not sure if that's AA himself or his son, but the idea that the King of Winter is both responsible for bringing the winter (AA's original sin) and then later fighting it off (as the KoW) is more or less what I have been focusing on lately. The KoW is a fire person, or perhaps you might say a former fire person. Winterfell is an oasis of warmth, a bulwark against the cold. I don't think the original slaying of Nissa Nissa took place here, since it seems like AA's original evil deeds took place out east, but if he came to Westeros to eventually give rise to the Last Hero myth, I would suspect some sort of magical sacrifice / forging event may have taken place here. It's been suggested that when the LH sought the children's help after his sword broke and his companions died, he found them at Winterfell. The LH reappears with Dragonsteel at the end of the story, so where did that come from if his original sword broke? Perhaps the children helped him reforge his sword, lent him the magic or blood or something. Something certainly went down at WF in the past, of that we should have little doubt. 

Good find @Blue Tiger

[Crowfood's Daughter]

On 9/1/2016 at 0:06 PM, LmL said:

I am often finding clues that we are talking about 2 or even 3 brothers related to the figure of Azor Ahai, much like we have three Baratheon horned lord brothers who go the different ways. Grey King sate weirwood throne, his brother blew the horn? Mane is king beyond the wall (with his white tent surmounted by great elk antlers) but he has a right hand man who is the horn blower. Euron gave his horn to this brother as well... something is up here. Plus I think of the idea that the Stark who brought down the NK might have been his brother. I think of the endgame, which may have Jon as the King of Winter, and Bran as the Greenseer of the North - are they two different, adjunct positions? Hard to say, hard to say.

Okay, so I have been looking at House Goodbrother, and would you be surprised to see fertility symbolism?   I have also noticed you mentioned you were looking for something that would match up with the symbolism of Atlas holding up the Westernmost part of the world. What if Westeros itself is the westermost part of the world?  Before the meteor impacts there are some who speculate the Iron Islands were part of the mainland.  Wouldn't Garth (the storm god) be in the westernmost part of the world holding up the sky?

As I was mentioning, with House Goodbrother, the fertility symbolism is there.  The greenland references are also there.  Also, would you be surprised to see brother versus brother stuff?

I had also found it very curious that all but one house is descended from the Grey King and there is a lone house descended from his eldest leal brother.  So, lets look at how the senior branch of the Goodbrothers are introduced: 

Quote

Lord Goodbrother of Great Wyk had come in the night before with his main strength, near forty longships. His men were everywhere, conspicuous in their striped goat’s hair sashes. It was said about the inn that Otter Gimpknee’s whores were being f###ed bowlegged by beardless boys in sashes. The boys were welcome to them so far as Theon was concerned.

 I found the goat’s hair sashes completely bizarre, and researched to see if there is any symbolism behind this reference, and sure enough the goat is a fertility symbol.

Quote

Both sexes of the goat symbolize fertility, vitality and ceaseless energy. The he-goat (buck) is the epitome of masculine virility and creative energy, while the female (doe) typifies the feminine and generative power and abundance. Symbolically, the goat can be interchanged with the gazelle or the antelope.  http://theikga.org/goat_symbolism.html

Cerrunos who is an inspiration for Garth was also closely linked to Pan who was a half-man/half-goat figure.

So when the Goodbrothers are introduced in the series, the Goodbrothers are ‘everywhere’. Then, in the same passage, the beardless boys (aka greenboys) are engaging in a whole lot of sex.  Also, in the same passage, we learn they all wear a symbol of fertility.  Now, I am not the symbolism expert, but it seems to me the Goodbrothers are supposed to be associated with fertility.  

The next time we see House Goodbrother, Aeron travels to their holdfast where he learns of Balon's death and that Euron is attempting to take his throne which symbolically is an example one brother killing another.  Look at how the location of the holdfast is described:

Quote

"Great Wyk was the largest of the Iron Islands, so vast that some of its lords had holdings that did not front upon the holy sea. Gorold Goodbrother was one such. His keep was in the Hardstone Hills, as far from the Drowned God’s realm as any place in the isles. Gorold’s folk toiled down in Gorold’s mines, in the stony dark beneath the earth. Some lived and died without setting eyes upon salt water. Small wonder that such folk are crabbed and queer."

So before we learn of the King Balon's death, we learn the holdfast of the Goodbrother senior branch is so far away from Drowned God’s realm, many do not even set eyes on the sea and their people are considered “queer”.  We also learn in this chapter Gorold Goodbrother was given 12 daughters and 3 sons (possibly triplets).  Fifteen kids is quite a lot of children even for Westerosi standards, and triplets are almost unheard of. Later, as Aeron is escorted to the sea, Greydon Goodbrother asks:

Quote

“Will it come to war?” asked Greydon Goodbrother as the sun was lightening the hills. “A war of brother against brother?” “If the Drowned God wills it. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair.” The Crow’s Eye will fight, that is certain.

What happens the next time we see the Goodbrothers?  Oh yes, we see two brothers fighting.  

Quote

The tent grew hot and smoky. Two of Gorold Goodbrother’s sons knocked a table over fighting; Will Humble lost a wager and had to eat his boot; Little Lenwood Tawney fiddled whilst Romny Weaver sang “The Bloody Cup” and “Steel Rain” and other old reaving songs.

Take a look at how the goodbrothers are used in the books, you will see a message is trying to be sent about fertility and brother’s fighting.  When they are not given kinslaying or fertility symbolism, you see maesters, talk of sending ravens, and conversing with either friends of the eldest Greyjoy brother Euron (who represents storms), or Ironborn with greenland ties.

Also, I want to briefly mention Victarion and Euron.  In this brotherly dynamic, the only thing on Victarion’s mind is killing his brother Euron,  and how many times has Victarion mentioned how accursed kinslaying was?  So many times, its his inner mantra.

Quote

“and the only good wind is that which fills our sails. Would you have me fight the Crow’s Eye? Brother against brother, ironborn against ironborn?” Euron was still his elder, no matter how much bad blood might be between them. No man is as accursed as the kinslayer.

Quote

"He drank in the darkness, brooding on his brother. If I do not strike the blow with mine own hand, am I still a kinslayer? Victarion feared no man, but the Drowned God’s curse gave him pause. If another strikes him down at my command, will his blood still stain my hands? Aeron Damphair would know the answer, but the priest was somewhere back on the Iron Islands, still hoping to raise the ironborn against their new-crowned king".

We see a curse again.  Remember my thoughts on the curse of the first king (Garth) making the grey king corpselike?

The death of Renly is another example of one brother killing the other with Renly being a Garth figure and the brother losing his vitality as a result of the magic used to kill him.

Quote

"the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers. The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond. The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought. Can you drown in grief?"

 I had posted a topic on this exact idea but the semantics of "leal eldest" suggest a brother who was sworn to the Grey King.  Which I just can't wrap my head around at the moment.  But the symbolism is there and the site where the First King died is right next to a river with a sea inlet not far from the Iron Islands.  

What are your thoughts?

[LmL]

On 1/21/2017 at 8:22 AM, Crowfood's daughter said:

On 9/1/2016 at 9:06 AM, LmL said:

I am often finding clues that we are talking about 2 or even 3 brothers related to the figure of Azor Ahai, much like we have three Baratheon horned lord brothers who go the different ways. Grey King sate weirwood throne, his brother blew the horn? Mane is king beyond the wall (with his white tent surmounted by great elk antlers) but he has a right hand man who is the horn blower. Euron gave his horn to this brother as well... something is up here. Plus I think of the idea that the Stark who brought down the NK might have been his brother. I think of the endgame, which may have Jon as the King of Winter, and Bran as the Greenseer of the North - are they two different, adjunct positions? Hard to say, hard to say.

Okay, so I have been looking at House Goodbrother, and would you be surprised to see fertility symbolism?  

I feel like mermaids should blow their seashells to announce your return! Great to see you  Your thoughts on the sewing vs. reaping associations with the stag peoples and sea peoples has stuck with me and has only borne out further as I have done more analysis on the Ironborn and Garth & Green Men. As I am going to say in my next episode, the Grey King and the Drowned God are easily recognizable as death gods, in line with the Barrow King and the King of Winter. That's why your find about the crude iron kraken forged for Theon the grey skinned old man at Barrowton is a great find.  So yes! I would be moderately surprised to see fertility symbolism with any Ironborn, but if there were to be an exception it makes sense that it would be goodbrother, since that whole leal elder brother thing is kinda weird. So, to your analysis:

On 1/21/2017 at 8:22 AM, Crowfood's daughter said:

I have also noticed you mentioned you were looking for something that would match up with the symbolism of Atlas holding up the Westernmost part of the world. What if Westeros itself is the westermost part of the world?  Before the meteor impacts there are some who speculate the Iron Islands were part of the mainland.  Wouldn't Garth (the storm god) be in the westernmost part of the world holding up the sky?

This was because Atlas is the brother of Prometheus, and Grey King is obviously a Prometheus character, like Azor Ahai. So I was looking for Atlas clues from the leal elder brother, and therefore from Goodbrother - although George of course does not always carry out his influences beyond the first layer, so there may not be any Atlas ideas. However, they are at the western edge of the world, especially the Lonely Light, so I thought maybe there was Atlas ideas. Goodbrother might be an inversion of Atlas - instead of holding the world up, their symbolism alludes to the horn of destruction, their keep claws at the moon, etc. 

When you say Garth = Storm God, are you alluding to the idea of horned lords being the one who called down the thunderbolt and Robert as a horned lord and also an incarnation of Thor? 

On 1/21/2017 at 8:22 AM, Crowfood's daughter said:

As I was mentioning, with House Goodbrother, the fertility symbolism is there.  The greenland references are also there.  Also, would you be surprised to see brother versus brother stuff?

Certainly not..

On 1/21/2017 at 8:22 AM, Crowfood's daughter said:

I had also found it very curious that all but one house is descended from the Grey King and there is a lone house descended from his eldest leal brother.  So, lets look at how the senior branch of the Goodbrothers are introduced: 

Quote

Lord Goodbrother of Great Wyk had come in the night before with his main strength, near forty longships. His men were everywhere, conspicuous in their striped goat’s hair sashes. It was said about the inn that Otter Gimpknee’s whores were being f###ed bowlegged by beardless boys in sashes. The boys were welcome to them so far as Theon was concerned.

 I found the goat’s hair sashes completely bizarre, and researched to see if there is any symbolism behind this reference, and sure enough the goat is a fertility symbol.

Quote

Both sexes of the goat symbolize fertility, vitality and ceaseless energy. The he-goat (buck) is the epitome of masculine virility and creative energy, while the female (doe) typifies the feminine and generative power and abundance. Symbolically, the goat can be interchanged with the gazelle or the antelope.  http://theikga.org/goat_symbolism.html

Cerrunos who is an inspiration for Garth was also closely linked to Pan who was a half-man/half-goat figure.

So when the Goodbrothers are introduced in the series, the Goodbrothers are ‘everywhere’. Then, in the same passage, the beardless boys (aka greenboys) are engaging in a whole lot of sex.  Also, in the same passage, we learn they all wear a symbol of fertility.  Now, I am not the symbolism expert, but it seems to me the Goodbrothers are supposed to be associated with fertility.

Yes, absolutely, I have to agree with your analysis here. Good research on the goat hair stuff, and as you say, the goat man is very close to the stag man, and Pan is in the Cerrunos tradition.  The emphasis on fertility is emphasized almost comedically here, and as you point out below, dude has A LOT of children. Again, it's almost over the top.

On 1/21/2017 at 8:22 AM, Crowfood's daughter said:

 

The next time we see House Goodbrother, Aeron travels to their holdfast where he learns of Balon's death and that Euron is attempting to take his throne which symbolically is an example one brother killing another.  Look at how the location of the holdfast is described:

Quote

"Great Wyk was the largest of the Iron Islands, so vast that some of its lords had holdings that did not front upon the holy sea. Gorold Goodbrother was one such. His keep was in the Hardstone Hills, as far from the Drowned God’s realm as any place in the isles. Gorold’s folk toiled down in Gorold’s mines, in the stony dark beneath the earth. Some lived and died without setting eyes upon salt water. Small wonder that such folk are crabbed and queer."

So before we learn of the King Balon's death, we learn the holdfast of the Goodbrother senior branch is so far away from Drowned God’s realm, many do not even set eyes on the sea and their people are considered “queer”.  We also learn in this chapter Gorold Goodbrother was given 12 daughters and 3 sons (possibly triplets).  Fifteen kids is quite a lot of children even for Westerosi standards, and triplets are almost unheard of. 

 

I'd also like to point out the reference to Catholicism here. The Holy See is the district that contains the Vatican and functions as the center of the faith. A See is something like a district.  This works as an extra layer to the Ironborn faith and the beliefs about the sea, but it works better with @ravenous reader's see / sea wordplay discovery.  I'm not sure if you are hip to that, but it appears as though all of these references to the green sea or the green grass sea are really giving us information about the green see of the greenseers.  It also has to do with Patchface's "under the sea," which is really under the see and seems to refer to the weirwoodnet. It's a whole thing, probably one of greatest discoveries ever made on the board quite frankly.  It's definitely the Holy See.  I'm not sure how that affects our analysis of Goodbrother, let me ponder that. It could be speaking of a green man kicke dout of weirwoodnet, or denied access to it, something like that. Perhaps the idea os someone who has come out of the see and gone underground instead... perhaps RR has some insight on this.

On 1/21/2017 at 8:22 AM, Crowfood's daughter said:

Later, as Aeron is escorted to the sea, Greydon Goodbrother asks:

Quote

“Will it come to war?” asked Greydon Goodbrother as the sun was lightening the hills. “A war of brother against brother?” “If the Drowned God wills it. No godless man may sit the Seastone Chair.” The Crow’s Eye will fight, that is certain.

What happens the next time we see the Goodbrothers?  Oh yes, we see two brothers fighting.  

Quote

The tent grew hot and smoky. Two of Gorold Goodbrother’s sons knocked a table over fighting; Will Humble lost a wager and had to eat his boot; Little Lenwood Tawney fiddled whilst Romny Weaver sang “The Bloody Cup” and “Steel Rain” and other old reaving songs.

Take a look at how the goodbrothers are used in the books, you will see a message is trying to be sent about fertility and brother’s fighting.  When they are not given kinslaying or fertility symbolism, you see maesters, talk of sending ravens, and conversing with either friends of the eldest Greyjoy brother Euron (who represents storms), or Ironborn with greenland ties.

Grey-dawn suggests a sun that is clouded over, which would be the reality during the Long Night. That fits well with the Hammerhorn / clawing at the moon symbolism. Knocking over a table could be a good analogy for knocking the universe / world out of alignment or order, certainly, and that would fit. Bloody Cup and Steel Rain especially is definitely meteor shower talk. 

Also, they is a Garth Greyfeather in the NW, and a Garth Greybeard, a historical Gardener King, implying that some Garths can turn to grey.

The brothers fighting is obviously a theme of the horned lord mythology, as we've discussed, so I agree with you that must be what is being depicted here. Could it be that the Grey King and his leal brother fought at some point? Or is it that we should draw form the term "good-brother," which means your wife's brother? Grey King is a foreigner, a dragon person who came there on a boat, I believe. He married a mermaid and became the founder of Ironbron culture, which I take to refer (in part) to the idea of this foreigner marrying into the local populace and creating a culture which is an amalgamation of his old culture and the culture of the Islands. 

On 1/21/2017 at 8:22 AM, Crowfood's daughter said:

Also, I want to briefly mention Victarion and Euron.  In this brotherly dynamic, the only thing on Victarion’s mind is killing his brother Euron,  and how many times has Victarion mentioned how accursed kinslaying was?  So many times, its his inner mantra.

Quote

“and the only good wind is that which fills our sails. Would you have me fight the Crow’s Eye? Brother against brother, ironborn against ironborn?” Euron was still his elder, no matter how much bad blood might be between them. No man is as accursed as the kinslayer.

Quote

"He drank in the darkness, brooding on his brother. If I do not strike the blow with mine own hand, am I still a kinslayer? Victarion feared no man, but the Drowned God’s curse gave him pause. If another strikes him down at my command, will his blood still stain my hands? Aeron Damphair would know the answer, but the priest was somewhere back on the Iron Islands, still hoping to raise the ironborn against their new-crowned king".

We see a curse again.  Remember my thoughts on the curse of the first king (Garth) making the grey king corpselike?

The death of Renly is another example of one brother killing the other with Renly being a Garth figure and the brother losing his vitality as a result of the magic used to kill him.

Quote

"the helm crowned by a great rack of golden antlers. The steel was polished to such a high sheen that she could see her reflection in the breastplate, gazing back at her as if from the bottom of a deep green pond. The face of a drowned woman, Catelyn thought. Can you drown in grief?"

 I had posted a topic on this exact idea but the semantics of "leal eldest" suggest a brother who was sworn to the Grey King.  Which I just can't wrap my head around at the moment.  But the symbolism is there and the site where the First King died is right next to a river with a sea inlet not far from the Iron Islands.  

What are your thoughts?

I do remember your thought on that. Again I would mention Ravenous Reader's sea / see discovery.  Renly's green armor is like a pond or a sea because the horned lord / green man figures in ASOIAF are greenseers. I'm not sure exactly how the curse thing actually played out, but in general it is a clue about Garth people creating zombies I believe or becoming undead. 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

On 1/22/2017 at 5:26 PM, LmL said:

When you say Garth = Storm God, are you alluding to the idea of horned lords being the one who called down the thunderbolt and Robert as a horned lord and also an incarnation of Thor? 

I believe Garth/CotF and the Storm God are possibly interchangeable.  Ravens are creatures of the storm Gods, Ravens are likewise the creatures of the greenseers.  The symbolism of Renly’s duality as a Storm King wearing the Garth armor.  Garth and the storm king both share antlers in their portrayal.   I am not saying Durran and Garth are the same, Durran was an enemy to the storm, but he took on the trappings of the storm king when he felt he had overcome it.  What I am saying is GRRM gave Garth a similar symbol for reasons beyond fertility and life/death cycles.  We know the greenseers speak with the trees and the wind, therefor the greenseers must have at least some control over the wind.  You will see time and time again throughout the series the wind, not just the trees, is trying to tell the characters something even as soon as the prologue. We also know from the new chapters Euron has found a way to control the wind and has responded to others when they warn of the Storm God’s wrath, “I am the Storm”.  So, in my interpretation, when the Ironborn speak of the Stormgod what they are referring to is a deity linked to the CotF.  From a deeper perspective, the weather is just as crucial for fertility.  Without the wind and rain pollination and nourishment plants would not grow. To answer your other question, yes I believe Garth/CotF and the Grey king had something to do with the calling down the thunder from the sky.  

Side note:If Garth and the Grey King were brothers this might explain how he came about greensight.

 

On 1/22/2017 at 5:26 PM, LmL said:

I'd also like to point out the reference to Catholicism here. The Holy See is the district that contains the Vatican and functions as the center of the faith. A See is something like a district.  This works as an extra layer to the Ironborn faith and the beliefs about the sea, but it works better with @ravenous reader's see / sea wordplay discovery.  I'm not sure if you are hip to that, but it appears as though all of these references to the green sea or the green grass sea are really giving us information about the green see of the greenseers.  It also has to do with Patchface's "under the sea," which is really under the see and seems to refer to the weirwoodnet. It's a whole thing, probably one of greatest discoveries ever made on the board quite frankly.  It's definitely the Holy See.  I'm not sure how that affects our analysis of Goodbrother, let me ponder that. It could be speaking of a green man kicke dout of weirwoodnet, or denied access to it, something like that. Perhaps the idea os someone who has come out of the see and gone underground instead... perhaps RR has some insight on this.

You are right, I need to catch up, but I did see your commentary of the green sea/greensee part, pretty good thoughts there and it is changing the way I read some things.

On 1/22/2017 at 5:26 PM, LmL said:

Grey-dawn suggests a sun that is clouded over, which would be the reality during the Long Night. That fits well with the Hammerhorn / clawing at the moon symbolism. Knocking over a table could be a good analogy for knocking the universe / world out of alignment or order, certainly, and that would fit. Bloody Cup and Steel Rain especially is definitely meteor shower talk. 

When I saw the passage of the iron spiky battlements, I thought it might also elude to the iron crown worn by the Gardner kings during wartime.  Battlements are the same as crenellations, and battlements/crenellations look like crowns.  According to the heraldry, the Dustin sigil has a black crown on a yellow field with crossed axes.  I was really eyeing that sigil and feel there is more than meets the eye. I know axes have symbolism rooted in religious sacrifice and the slaying of the minotaur and the taurectomy mythos is strong in GRRMs world. Also, axes and hammers have been interchangeable in many myths.  I believe the yellow field is also a solar illusion.  BTW, have you seen this?-->  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderstone_(folklore)  and->   https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2010/06/thunderstone-mystery-what-stone-age-axe.html#w4rzpcr318opYzmt.97

 

On 1/22/2017 at 5:26 PM, LmL said:

Also, they is a Garth Greyfeather in the NW, and a Garth Greybeard, a historical Gardener King, implying that some Garths can turn to grey.

The brothers fighting is obviously a theme of the horned lord mythology, as we've discussed, so I agree with you that must be what is being depicted here. Could it be that the Grey King and his leal brother fought at some point? Or is it that we should draw form the term "good-brother," which means your wife's brother? Grey King is a foreigner, a dragon person who came there on a boat, I believe. He married a mermaid and became the founder of Ironbron culture, which I take to refer (in part) to the idea of this foreigner marrying into the local populace and creating a culture which is an amalgamation of his old culture and the culture of the Islands. 

 

The good-brother idea could very well be the case, great catch!

[LmL]

4 hours ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

I believe Garth/CotF and the Storm God are possibly interchangeable.  Ravens are creatures of the storm Gods, Ravens are likewise the creatures of the greenseers.  The symbolism of Renly’s duality as a Storm King wearing the Garth armor.  Garth and the storm king both share antlers in their portrayal.   I am not saying Durran and Garth are the same, Durran was an enemy to the storm, but he took on the trappings of the storm king when he felt he had overcome it.  What I am saying is GRRM gave Garth a similar symbol for reasons beyond fertility and life/death cycles.  We know the greenseers speak with the trees and the wind, therefor the greenseers must have at least some control over the wind.  You will see time and time again throughout the series the wind, not just the trees, is trying to tell the characters something even as soon as the prologue. We also know from the new chapters Euron has found a way to control the wind and has responded to others when they warn of the Storm God’s wrath, “I am the Storm”.  So, in my interpretation, when the Ironborn speak of the Stormgod what they are referring to is a deity linked to the CotF.  From a deeper perspective, the weather is just as crucial for fertility.  Without the wind and rain pollination and nourishment plants would not grow. To answer your other question, yes I believe Garth/CotF and the Grey king had something to do with the calling down the thunder from the sky.  

Side note:If Garth and the Grey King were brothers this might explain how he came about greensight.

 

 

You are right, I need to catch up, but I did see your commentary of the green sea/greensee part, pretty good thoughts there and it is changing the way I read some things.

When I saw the passage of the iron spiky battlements, I thought it might also elude to the iron crown worn by the Gardner kings during wartime.  Battlements are the same as crenellations, and battlements/crenellations look like crowns.  According to the heraldry, the Dustin sigil has a black crown on a yellow field with crossed axes.  I was really eyeing that sigil and feel there is more than meets the eye. I know axes have symbolism rooted in religious sacrifice and the slaying of the minotaur and the taurectomy mythos is strong in GRRMs world. Also, axes and hammers have been interchangeable in many myths.  I believe the yellow field is also a solar illusion.  BTW, have you seen this?-->  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderstone_(folklore)  and->   https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2010/06/thunderstone-mystery-what-stone-age-axe.html#w4rzpcr318opYzmt.97

 

 

 

 

 

The good-brother idea could very well be the case, great catch!

So... Garth Goodbrother, hornblower extraordinaire? 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

3 hours ago, LmL said:

So... Garth Goodbrother, hornblower extraordinaire? 

Yeah, I think something is 'fishy' in the state of Old Wyk.  

[LmL]

8 hours ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

Yeah, I think something is 'fishy' in the state of Old Wyk.  

Hey, didn't you have some discovery re: the etymology of Elenei's name? Something that ties her to mermaids? I'm writing about that right now 

[Bluetiger]

10 minutes ago, LmL said:

Hey, didn't you have some discovery re: the etymology of Elenei's name? Something that ties her to mermaids? I'm writing about that right now 

Elenei might be a form of Eleni... And that name is original version of Helen... So Durran is Paris...

[LmL]

26 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Elenei might be a form of Eleni... And that name is original version of Helen... So Durran is Paris...

Yes, I made that connection for sure. Helen is also associated with swans, due to the Zeus / Ledo myth, making her an aquatic goddess in some respects. The face that launched a thousand ships, and she was also associated with the moon... so instead we get a thousand dragons launched from the moon face.

Also, Helen is the most beautiful woman in the world, a title Dany also wears. The Ironborn launched 1,000 ships to go get her.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

9 hours ago, LmL said:

Hey, didn't you have some discovery re: the etymology of Elenei's name? Something that ties her to mermaids? I'm writing about that right now 

It was for Serenei of Lys.  Elenei/Serenei, they do sound very similar.  I had the feels Serenei of Lys was descended from the daughter of Jaeherys and Alysanne.  This was before TWOIAF came out, and I'd like to add the worldbook did later highlight the great "quarrels" of the couple.  My best bet is that Saera caused one of the quarrels when she went to the pillow houses of Lys. 

Serenei of Lys:

• Lady Serenei of Lys was the last daughter from an ancient but impoverished Valyrian noble family. Serenei was the 9th and last of AegonV’s mistresses and was also considered to be the most beautiful of them Rumors spread that that she was much older than the king, practicing dark arts to retain her youth and beauty.

• The name Sarah is of Hebrew origin, and the meaning of Sarah is "princess" and has biblical origins. In the Bible, Sarah was originally called Sarai (quarrelsome), Sarah was the wife of Abraham and is described as being exceptionally beautiful even into her older years. Interestingly, Sara in Hebrew is also a verb which means to sing.

• In Greek mythology, the Sirens (Greek singular: Seirēn Greek plural: Seirēnes were dangerous yet beautiful creatures, portrayed as femmes fatales who lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island, luring them to their death.

Sara (or Sarai) + Siren (or Seiren)= Serenei

Siren : any of a group of female and partly human creatures in Greek mythology that lured mariners to destruction by their singing a : a woman who sings with enchanting sweetness b : temptress c : temptation

 

Basically her name means she is a dangerous femme fatale who could very well be much older than she appears.

I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for, but this is what I got.

[LmL]

41 minutes ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

It was for Serenei of Lys.  Elenei/Serenei, they do sound very similar.  I had the feels Serenei of Lys was descended from the daughter of Jaeherys and Alysanne.  This was before TWOIAF came out, and I'd like to add the worldbook did later highlight the great "quarrels" of the couple.  My best bet is that Saera caused one of the quarrels when she went to the pillow houses of Lys. 

Serenei of Lys:

• Lady Serenei of Lys was the last daughter from an ancient but impoverished Valyrian noble family. Serenei was the 9th and last of AegonV’s mistresses and was also considered to be the most beautiful of them Rumors spread that that she was much older than the king, practicing dark arts to retain her youth and beauty.

• The name Sarah is of Hebrew origin, and the meaning of Sarah is "princess" and has biblical origins. In the Bible, Sarah was originally called Sarai (quarrelsome), Sarah was the wife of Abraham and is described as being exceptionally beautiful even into her older years. Interestingly, Sara in Hebrew is also a verb which means to sing.

• In Greek mythology, the Sirens (Greek singular: Seirēn Greek plural: Seirēnes were dangerous yet beautiful creatures, portrayed as femmes fatales who lured nearby sailors with their enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast of their island, luring them to their death.

Sara (or Sarai) + Siren (or Seiren)= Serenei

Siren : any of a group of female and partly human creatures in Greek mythology that lured mariners to destruction by their singing a : a woman who sings with enchanting sweetness b : temptress c : temptation

 

Basically her name means she is a dangerous femme fatale who could very well be much older than she appears.

I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for, but this is what I got.

That is all really interesting, but I could have sworn there was something else. It was related to your research into the courtesans of bravos and all the mermaid stuff, I thought. I could very well be mushing things together in my stony brain though. I do plan to write about all the courtesans and related moon maiden drowning ideas, upon which time I will give you a tip of the hat. I think I have our old conversations saved on the messenger utility here still, I'll have to sift through them.

[LmL]

But there's another sword that sounds more like Lightbringer - From Tolkien Gateway: Anglachel:

Quote

Anglachel was the sword forged by Eöl the Dark Elf from a meteorite. Its mate was Anguirel. The blade was black but also glowed and was so hard that it could easily slice through iron. It was said that it was imbued with Eöl's malice and was apparently sentient.

Eöl gave Anglachel to his lord, King Thingol of Doriath, as payment for letting him dwell in the Forest of Nan Elmoth. Thingol would not bear it, as Melian warned him that there was malice in the blade, so it stayed in the armoury of Menegroth.

In F.A. 487 Thingol allowed Beleg Strongbow to take any weapon in his search of his friend Túrin Turambar, and he took Anglachel. He tracked down the Orcs taking Túrin captive to Angband and in the dead of night, sought to free him in secret. But when he used Anglachel to cut the bonds of Túrin, due to the spite of its forger it slipped and pricked the unconscious body of Túrin. Awakening from his stupor, Túrin thought the Orcs had returned to torture him, and during the struggle he slew Beleg with the blade. After the fight, Anglachel's edges became dull and turned a dead black and for that time ceased to glow with a 'pale fire'. This was attributed to its apparent sentience as Anglachel was in a state of mourning over the slaying of Beleg.

Túrin later reforged the sword with the help of the smiths of Nargothrond. The blade remained black, however, and Túrin renamed it Gurthang, meaning 'iron of death'. Anglachel was the sword that Túrin used to kill Glaurung

Christopher Tolkien notes that Anglachel contains the Sindarin word ang ("iron") and probably the element lhach ("leaping flame"). This would give the meaning "Flaming Iron". The last element in Anglachel could be êl ("star").

And Anguirel: 

Quote

Anguirel was one of a pair of iron-cutting swords forged by Eöl, the Dark Elf, from an iron meteorite. Anguirel's mate was Anglachel, which Eöl gave to Thingol in payment for leave to dwell in Nan Elmoth.

Anguirel's history is far more mysterious. The only specific detail we have is that Eöl kept it for himself, but it was stolen by his son Maeglin. This must have happened when Maeglin and his mother Aredhel fled Nan Elmoth for Gondolin, so presumably the sword was taken to Turgon's hidden city. What became of it after that is unknown.

The etymology of Anguirel is not as clear as its mate. It might mean "Iron of the Eternal Star", from ang "iron", uir "eternal" and el "star".

Hmmm.... I think it'd be a good idea to move this discussion to Amber Compendium thread...

Tolkien wanted to create mythology and he did, so it's fitting to talk about it among Norse, Celtic, Baltic, Arthutian etc. stuff.

Btw, this quote from JRRT is quite similar to Campbell's ideas:

Quote

We have come from God, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming 'sub-creator' and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil.

 

Ha! I have claimed it for my own thread! It's more about meteor swords than Norse mythology, you have to admit. This is a great find here - I love it because Tolkien is giving us both a bright fire sword and black fire sword. Two black fire swords, what do you know - perhaps we see an echo of that with Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper. My favorite crackpot is that Ned's Ice was actually the original Lightbringer black sword of AA, so if that's the case, it's a very close parallel, with two black meteor swords in existence and one white fire sword. The black one is a meteor sword, it drinks people's essence, it's treacherous like black ice is said to be in ADWD (it's referring to black ice on the paths but I take it for a double meaning referring to Black Ice / dark lightbringer). 

The idea of the black meteor sword being reforged after becoming stained with blood definitely reminds us of Ned's sword, doesn't it? 

As for elves smithing swords, I believe that the green men / Old Ones might be capable of such. When I talk about Azor Ahai the horned lord and greenseer, that's what i am talking about, a kind of dark elf. I haven't gotten there yet in my podcassts but i have all the notes for it. 

Anyway, great find BT, really nice one here I was overlooking. A black meteor sword, in Tolkien - I am embarrassed to not have known. 

So Anglachel was used to slay a dragon? Glaurung is a dragon right?

[Crowfood's Daughter]

29 minutes ago, LmL said:

That is all really interesting, but I could have sworn there was something else. It was related to your research into the courtesans of bravos and all the mermaid stuff, I thought. I could very well be mushing things together in my stony brain though. I do plan to write about all the courtesans and related moon maiden drowning ideas, upon which time I will give you a tip of the hat. I think I have our old conversations saved on the messenger utility here still, I'll have to sift through them.

Maybe the fisher queen connection?  Also, I recall seeing depictions of her as a mermaid, it is not fan art, it is from "a complete guide to Westeros".  The complete guide was put out by youtube  HBO after season 1. This is that series that goes over histories and lore.  http://awoiaf.     westeros.org/index.php/File:Elenei.jpg        

[LmL]

2 minutes ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

Maybe the fisher queen connection?  Also, I recall seeing depictions of her as a mermaid, it is not fan art, it is from "a complete guide to Westeros".  The complete guide was put out by youtube  HBO after season 1. This is that series that goes over histories and lore.  http://awoiaf.     westeros.org/index.php/File:Elenei.jpg        

Ok, well that in of itself is helpful, as it shows they made the same conclusion we did - the daughter of the sea and wind gods should be an aquatic goddess, and thus a mermaid. Muchas gracias~

[LmL]

@Blue Tiger ooh, I see there is tragic incest in the Turin story, and suicide. Very interesting. 

Any thoughts on how this translates to the books?

[Crowfood's Daughter]

5 minutes ago, LmL said:

Ok, well that in of itself is helpful, as it shows they made the same conclusion we did - the daughter of the sea and wind gods should be an aquatic goddess, and thus a mermaid. Muchas gracias~

Sorry, it was put out by HBO on youtube after season 1.  GRRM worked closely with the show in its infancy

[Bluetiger]

46 minutes ago, LmL said:

@Blue Tiger ooh, I see there is tragic incest in the Turin story, and suicide. Very interesting. 

Any thoughts on how this translates to the books?

Hmm.... First of all we can look at Tolkien's dragons:

Quote

And now he stood alone, for the few that followed him had fled. But in that moment Glaurung issued from the gaping doors, and lay behind, between Túrin and the bridge. Then suddenly he spoke, by the evil spirit that was in him, saying: 'Hail, son of Húrin. Well met!'

Then Túrin sprang about, and strode against him, and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame; but Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Túrin. Without fear Túrin looked into them as he raised up the sword; and straightway he fell under the binding spell of the lidless eyes of the dragon, and was halted moveless. Then for a long time he stood as one graven of stone; and they two were alone, silent before the doors of Nargothrond. But Glaurung spoke again, taunting Túrin, and he said: 'Evil have been all thy ways, son of Húrin. Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardy, and deserter of thy kin. As thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dor-lómin, in misery and want. Thou art arrayed as a prince, but they go in rags; and for thee they yearn, but thou carest not for that. Glad may thy father be to learn that he hath such a son; as learn he shall.' And Túrin being under the spell of Glaurung hearkened to his words, and he saw himself as in a mirror misshapen by malice, and loathed that which he saw.

So dragons are essentialy mindless beasts... Skinchanged by evil spirits (corrupted Maia like Balrogs)...

And speaking of Turin - he commits suicide using his dark sword - because guy called Brandir the Lame (or Club-foot) came and told him that his wife is in fact his sister who lost memory - Turin killed Brandir, but later in the woods he met marchwarden of elven king Thingol Greycloak (Turin's foster father) who confirmed that story - and this happened: (Gurthang is sword reforged from Anglachel)

Quote

 

J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion, Chapter 21:

Then Mablung was dismayed, but needs must tell to Túrin how Morwen was lost, and Nienor cast into a spell of dumb forgetfulness, and how she escaped them upon the borders of Doriath and fled northwards. Then at last Túrin knew that doom had overtaken him, and that he had slain Brandir unjustly; so that the words of Glaurung were fulfilled in him. And he laughed as one fey, crying: 'This is a bitter jest indeed!' But he bade Mablung go, and return to Doriath, with curses upon it. 'And a curse too upon your errand!' he cried. 'This only was wanting. Now comes the night.'

Then he fled from them like the wind, and they were amazed, wondering what madness had seized him; and they followed after him. But Túrin far out-ran them; and he came to Cabed-en-Aras, and heard the roaring of the water, and saw that all the leaves fell sere from the trees, as though winter had come. There he drew forth his sword, that now alone remained to him of all his possessions, and he said: 'Hail Gurthang! No lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee. From no blood wilt thou shrink. Wilt thou therefore take Túrin Turambar, wilt thou slay me swiftly?'

And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly.'

Then Túrin set the hilts upon the ground, and cast himself upon the point of Gurthang, and the black blade took his life. But Mablung and the Elves came and looked on the shape of Glaurung lying dead, and upon the body of Túrin, and they grieved; and when Men of Brethil came thither, and they learned the reasons of Túrin's madness and death, they were aghast; and Mablung said bitterly: 'I also have been meshed in the doom of the Children of Húrin, and thus with my tidings have slain one that I loved.'

Then they lifted up Túrin, and found that Gurthang had broken asunder. But Elves and Men gathered there great store of wood, and they made a mighty burning, and the Dragon was consumed to ashes. Túrin they laid in a high mound where he had fallen, and the shards of Gurthang were laid beside him. And when all was done, the Elves sang a lament for the Children of Húrin, and a great grey stone was set upon the mound, and thereon was carven in runes of Doriath:

TÚRIN TURAMBAR DAGNIR GLAURUNGA

and beneath they wrote also:

NIENOR NINIEL

But she was not there, nor was it ever known whither the cold waters of Teiglin had taken her.

 

 

There are quite many nods to Silmarillion in ASOIAF - for example Brandon the Burner, but this one is interesting:
 

Quote

J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion, 

Chapter 19

Of Beren and Lúthien

But Lúthien heard his song, and she sang in answer, as she came through the woods unlooked for. For Huan, consenting once more to be her steed, had borne her swiftly hard upon Beren's trail. Long he had pondered in his heart what counsel he could devise for the lightning of the peril of these two whom he loved. He turned aside therefore at Sauron's isle, as they ran northward again, and he took thence the ghastly wolf-hame of Draugluin, and the bat-fell of Thuringwethil. She was the messenger of Sauron, and was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband; and her great fingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with and iron claw. Clad in these dreadful garments Huan and Lúthien ran through Taur-nu-Fuin, and all things fled before them.

Beren seeing their approach was dismayed; and he wondered, for he had heard the voice of Tinúviel, and he thought it now a phantom for his ensnaring. But they halted and cast aside their disguise, and Lúthien ran towards him. Thus Beren and Lúthien met again between the desert and the wood. For a while he was silent and was glad; but after a space he strove once more to dissuade Lúthien from her journey.

'Thrice now I curse my oath to Thingol,' he said, 'and I would that he had slain me in Menegroth, rather than I should bring you under the shadow of Morgoth.'

Then for the second time Huan spoke with words; and he counselled Beren, saying: 'From the shadow of death you can no longer save Lúthien, for by her love she is now subject to it. You can turn from your fate and lead her into exile, seeking peace in vain while your life lasts. But if you will not deny your doom, then either Lúthien, being forsaken, must assuredly die alone, or she must with you challenge the fate that lies before you--hopeless, yet not certain. Further counsel I cannot give, nor may I go further on your road. But my heart forebodes that what you find at the Gate I shall myself see. All else is dark to me; yet it may be that our three paths lead back to Doriath, and we may meet before the end.'

Then Beren perceived that Lúthien could not be divided from the doom that lay upon them both, and he sought no longer to dissuade her. By the counsel of Huan and the arts of Lúthien he was arrayed now in the hame of Draugluin, and she in the winged fell of Thuringwethil. Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings. Then howling under the moon he leaped down the hill, and the bat wheeled and flittered above him.

They passed through all perils, until they came with the dust of their long and weary road upon them to the drear dale that lay before the Gate of Angband. Black chasms opened beside the road, whence forms as of writhing serpents issued. On either hand the cliffs stood as embattled walls, and upon them sat carrion fowl crying with fell voices. Before them was the impregnable Gate, an arch wide and dark at the foot of the mountain; above it reared a thousand feet of precipice.

There dismay took them, for at the gate was a guard of whom no tidings had yet gone forth. Rumour of he knew not what designs abroad among the princes of the Elves had come to Morgoth, and ever down the aisles of the forest was heard the baying of Huan, the great hound of war, whom long ago the Valar unleashed. Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him. Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth. There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong. Carcharoth, the Red Maw, he is named in the tales of those days, and Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst. And Morgoth set him to lie unsleeping before the doors of Angband, lest Huan come.

Now Carcharoth espied them from afar, and he was filled with doubt; for news had long been brought to Angband that Draugluin was dead. Therefore when they approached he denied them entry, and bade them stand; and he drew near with menace, scenting something strange in the air about them. But suddenly some power, descended from of old from divine race, possessed Lúthien, and casting back her foul raiment she stood forth, small before the might of Carcharoth, but radiant and terrible. Lifting up her hand she commanded him to sleep, saying: 'O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though lightning had smitten him.

Then Beren and Lúthien went through the Gate, and down the labyrinthine stairs; and together wrought the greatest deed that has been dared by Elves or Men. For they came to the seat of Morgoth in his nethermost hall that was upheld by horror, lit by fire, and filled with weapons of death and torment. There Beren slunk in wolf's form beneath his throne; but Lúthien was stripped of her disguise by the will of Morgoth, and he bent his gaze upon her. She was not daunted by his eyes; and she named her own name, and offered her service to sing before him, after the manner of a minstrel. Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had yet come into his heart since he fled from Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice, for he watched her, leaving her free for awhile, and taking secret pleasure in his thought. Then suddenly she eluded his sight, and out of the shadows began a song of such surpassing loveliness, and of such blinding power, that he listened perforce; and a blindness came upon him, as his eyes roamed to and fro, seeking her.

All his court were cast down in slumber, and all the fires faded and were quenched; but the Silmarils in the crown on Morgoth's head blazed forth suddenly with a radiance of white flame; and the burden of that crown and of the jewels bowed down his head, as though the world were set upon it, laden with a weight of care, of fear, and of desire, that even the will of Morgoth could not support. Then Lúthien catching up her winged robe sprang into the air, and her voice came dropping down like rain into pools, profound and dark. She cast her cloak before his eyes, and set upon him a dream, dark as the outer Void where once he walked alone.

Suddenly he fell, as a hill sliding in avalanche, and hurled like thunder from his throne lay prone upon the floors of hell. The iron crown rolled echoing from his head. All things were still.

As a dead beast Beren lay upon the ground; but Lúthien touching him with her hand aroused him, and he cast aside the wolf-hame. Then he drew forth the knife Angrist; and from the iron claws that held it he cut a Silmaril.

As he closed it in his hand, the radiance welled through his living flesh, and his hand became as a shining lamp; but the jewel suffered his touch and hurt him not. It came then into Beren's mind that he would go beyond his vow, and bear out of Angband all three of the Jewels of Fëanor; but such was not the doom of the Silmarils. The knife Angrist snapped, and a shard of the blade flying smote the cheek of Morgoth. He groaned and stirred, and all the host of Angband moved in sleep.

So Beren and Luthien are skinchangers - they're wolf and bat - and now let's look at this:

Quote

From A Storm of Swords, Arya XIII

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.