weirwood and Jaime's dream

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 minute ago, cgrav said:

Are we assuming it was Jojen paste? 

I guess the Ghost did say that she "gorged on grief at Summerhall", though I took that as a purely metaphorical gorging and a reference to the upcoming wedding feast. So if that was literal gorging, I guess she ate some Targaryen. 

Or did you mean, who was the Ghost of HH in her pre-weirwood life? 

Well, I subscribe to the Jojen paste theory (poor Jojen), and the idea that blood sacrifice is required for a greenseer to wed the trees. And it seems to me that the ghost of High Heart is a greenseer wed to a tree. So, if that's true, somebody musta been turned to paste. 

[cgrav]

Who was sacrificed for Bloodraven, then? Maybe it's a full-on Odin thing, what with the missing eye.

or maybe it's not about blood sacrifice, but some other form of personal loss: BR's eye, Bran's legs, Ghost of HH's entire household. 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Please do not get me started on that BS. Martin wrote the books the way he wrote them. No need to make sumptin outta nuttin.

Awww come on! You don't wanna dance? We can take turns wearing the pink dress 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, cgrav said:

Who was sacrificed for Bloodraven, then? Maybe it's a full-on Odin thing, what with the missing eye.

or maybe it's not about blood sacrifice, but some other form of personal loss: BR's eye, Bran's legs, Ghost of HH's entire household. 

Good question. 

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Good question. 

 I don't know, I feel like blood sacrifice is just too vague to assume as a cause of events when it's not clearly stated or implied. Right now my money's on personal loss being the counterweight to greensight. I don't think anyone makes a conscious sacrifice to gain prophetic knowledge, but those who do are guided to it by the course of their post-tragedy lives.

[Clegane'sPup]

6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Awww come on! You don't wanna dance? We can take turns wearing the pink dress 

You can wear the pink one. I'll wear the red one. please leave the furry one in the closet all that hair makes me nose itch.

[Cridefea]

12 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

The mention of Stark followed by Rhaegar and the Kingsguard  accusing Jaime I do read that way, yes. After he wakes he even thinks to himself it wasn't Stark he was angry with, implying it was self-loathing he projected onto Ned.

 

 

And the first part too. About the Lannisters. He can't count on his family, not anymore.

 

12 hours ago, Cowboy Dan said:

Also you asked "how did he read the dream after seeing the white stump", I'm not sure what you mean by that. Can you re-phrase the question?

Jaime notice the weirwood stump, then he goes to rescue Brienne.  He thinks his dream is important, but how does he work it out?

[Cridefea]

12 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Do you reckon Bloodraven was just chilling, watching something on the weirnet then notices Jaime's put his head on a stump. 

Oh fuck is that Jaime Lannister? Better send him some cryptic shit to confuse him.

Bloodraven was just bored this entire time. 

LoL

[Jaime4Brienne]

On 8/30/2016 at 1:49 AM, Trigger Warning said:

Do you reckon Bloodraven was just chilling, watching something on the weirnet then notices Jaime's put his head on a stump. 

Oh fuck is that Jaime Lannister? Better send him some cryptic shit to confuse him.

Bloodraven was just bored this entire time. 

Haha!!!!

[ravenous reader]

21 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

How does he know? He just does. The dream makes him certain of it just as Dany was when birthing dragons.

Indeed.  When Brienne asks him why he came back -- she recognises it's 'out of character' for him -- he simply says:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VI

"Ser Jaime?" Even in soiled pink satin and torn lace, Brienne looked more like a man in a gown than a proper woman. "I am grateful, but . . . you were well away. Why come back?"

A dozen quips came to mind, each crueler than the one before, but Jaime only shrugged. "I dreamed of you," he said.

This is the first time in a long while we've seen Jaime being sincere (without his true thoughts having to be written in italics and without quotation marks).  Ironically, although Brienne thinks he's acting 'out of character,' Jaime's actually more 'in character' than he's ever been -- thanks to the dream which has woken him up.  He's turning away from his 'Smiling Knight' persona, in a similar vein to Theon turning away from his 'Reek' persona-- both of them affected and effected by weirwood 'magic.'

[Lost Melnibonean]

28 minutes ago, Cowboy Dan said:

True but that realization wasn't until the end of ASOS when he sits in front of the White Book. Actually the whole reason he left Brienne behind was because he was in such a hurry to get back to KL and his family (Cersei most of all). So I guess it was the first hint we had he was going in that direction, and becoming so alienated from his fellow Lannisters.

The dream reminds him of how guilty he feels about Rhaegar's kids. He doesn't want to feel guilty for Brienne. 

[ravenous reader]

38 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The dream reminds him of how guilty he feels about Rhaegar's kids. He doesn't want to feel guilty for Brienne.

It's more than that.   It's about her personally, just as much as Rhaegar's children.  Brienne actually made an appearance in his dream.  She's there beside him, after everyone else (including Tywin and Cersei) has abandoned him.  She's his swordhand.  And in a certain light, she could almost be a knight, almost be a beauty...She's also naked, recapitulating the Harrenhal 'bathtub' scene.  Come, let's read between the lines!

[Meera of Tarth]

28 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Indeed.  When Brienne asks him why he came back -- she recognises it's 'out of character' for him -- he simply says:

This is the first time in a long while we've seen Jaime being sincere (without his true thoughts having to be written in italics and without quotation marks).  Ironically, although Brienne thinks he's acting 'out of character,' Jaime's actually more 'in character' than he's ever been -- thanks to the dream which has woken him up.  He's turning away from his 'Smiling Knight' persona, in a similar vein to Theon turning away from his 'Reek' persona-- both of them affected and effected by weirwood 'magic.'

Oh yes, I couldn't agree with you more. That dream somehow changed him and his relationship with Brienne.

"I dreamed of you" it's not  a line easy to dismiss in their relationship. It can foreshadow that they will fall in love with eachother, although at that moment, he doesn't interpret these words necessarily in that way.

[cgrav]

Sometimes all you need to get your life back on track is a nightmare sent by a semi-mortal sorcerer through a magical tree stump. A lesson anyone can relate to.

[Meera of Tarth]

On 29/8/2016 at 10:13 PM, Cridefea said:

Probably you have already talked about this topic in many threads.

In Asos Jaime, on his way from Harrenhal to KL, makes a dream that influence his decision to come back and rescue Brienne.

  Reveal hidden contents

Naked and alone he stood, surrounded by enemies, with stone walls all around him pressing close. The Rock, he knew. He could feel the immense weight of it above his head. He was home. He was home and whole. He held his right hand up and flexed his fingers to feel the strength in them. [...]

Around him stood a dozen tall dark figures in cowled robes that hid their faces. In their hands were spears. “Who are you?” he demanded of them. “What business do you have in Casterly Rock?” They gave no answer, only prodded him with the points of their spears. He had no choice but to descend. Down a twisting passageway he went, narrow steps carved from the living rock, down and down. I must go up, he told himself. Up, not down. Why am I going down? Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him. [...]

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. […] There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. “What place is this?” “Your place.” The voice echoed; it was a hundred voices, a thousand, the voices of all the Lannisters since Lann the Clever, who’d lived at the dawn of days. But most of all it was his father’s voice, and beside Lord Tywin stood his sister, pale and beautiful, a torch burning in her hand. Joffrey was there as well, the son they’d made together, and behind them a dozen more dark shapes with golden hair. “Sister, why has Father brought us here?” “Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.” Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go. “Stay with me,” Jaime pleaded. “Don’t leave me here alone.” But they were leaving. “Don’t leave me in the dark!” Something terrible lived down here. “Give me a sword, at least.” “I gave you a sword,” Lord Tywin said. It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. [...]

From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound… but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. “I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.” Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. “Ser. Please. If you would be so good.” The steel links parted like silk. “A sword,” Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. in this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more. “The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.” “Sister!” he shouted. “Stay with me. Stay!” There was no reply but the soft sound of retreating footsteps. Brienne moved her longsword back and forth, watching the silvery flames shift and shimmer. [...] She was as tall and strong as he remembered, yet it seemed to Jaime that she had more of a woman’s shape now.

“Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?” “Doom.” No bear, he knew. No lion. “Only doom.” In the cool silvery-blue light of the swords, the big wench looked pale and fierce. “I mislike this place.” “I’m not fond of it myself.” Their blades made a little island of light, but all around them stretched a sea of darkness, unending. “My feet are wet.” “We could go back the way they brought us. if you climbed on my shoulders you’d have no trouble reaching that tunnel mouth.” Then I could follow Cersei. He could feel himself growing hard at the thought, and turned away so Brienne would not see. “Listen.” She put a hand on his shoulder, and he trembled at the sudden touch. She’s warm.“Something comes.” Brienne lifted her sword to point off to his left. “There,” [...] “A man on a horse. No, two. Two riders, side by side.” “Down here, beneath the Rock?” It made no sense. Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof. He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys’s throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord’s eyes, cold and grey and full of judgment. “Is it you, Stark?” Jaime called. “Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead.” Brienne touched his arm. “There are more.” He saw them too.

They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them. Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne. “You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.” “I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.” “We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly. The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.” “He was your king,” said Darry. “You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent. “And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn. Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.” “I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king… “Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur. “Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn. “The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull. The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in. “No,” he said, “no, no, no. Nooooooooo!”

You can read it in a psychological way and it makes perfect sense.

You can read it as a rapresentation of jaime's past present and imminent future.

You can read it as a prophecy in long terms. but jaime was sleeping on a weirwood stump.

Does it indicate the dream is necessarily prophetic? And most of all, since Jaime notice the the white stump, how did he read his own dream? How did it affect his decision to rescue Brienne?

I believe that dream has multiple layers to explore. I definitely think he has a psychological effect on him, realising what he may become ig he doesn't change 

Quote

The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.” “Sister!” he shouted. “Stay with me. Stay!

Here there's a conflict with Cersei, maybe foreshadowing of their break-up. He doesn't analyse Cersei's words at all, but Cersei wants him dead.

Quote

Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne. “You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.” “I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oat

Then they blame him for the oaths, and tries to apologise 

Ser Arthur, for a moment, seems to understand him (but at the end he accuses him too). (On a sidenote, I've always wondered if that would mean that Ser Arthur Dayne also broke an oath....)

Quote

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

I think that the key point is that Jaime feels secure as long as he has the sword, but the flame of the word disappears, while Brienne's flaming sword is still working. And the cause of it seems to be the terror. I think there must be something mre related to the fact he fears terror, and only Brienne's sword still burns, but I don't know what could be. The most simplistic thing to think about would be Jaime dying but it could be something much more complicated. BTW...why does Brienne also have a burning sword?

Quote

Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back. [...]

....

Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue

.....

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in. “No,” he said, “no, no, no. Nooooooooo!”

 

[ravenous reader]

7 hours ago, cgrav said:

Sometimes all you need to get your life back on track is a nightmare sent by a semi-mortal sorcerer through a magical tree stump. A lesson anyone can relate to

Sometimes you need a weirwood stump to knock some sense into you!  Jaime's head was 'pounding' after the dream, implying the weirwood stump had 'pounded' in some new self-awareness.  It's psychoanalysis Westerosi-style!  I agree with this:

On 8/30/2016 at 0:33 AM, cgrav said:

I feel like blood sacrifice is just too vague to assume as a cause of events when it's not clearly stated or implied. Right now my money's on personal loss being the counterweight to greensight. I don't think anyone makes a conscious sacrifice to gain prophetic knowledge, but those who do are guided to it by the course of their post-tragedy lives.

The loss of Jaime's sword hand represented a turning point.  Prior to that, he had always relied on his superior talent for violence, which he applied liberally, expediently, impulsively, and flippantly in order to enforce his aims (or rather Cersei's aims, since he had not yet individuated himself from his twin's agenda).  Following this blow to his narcissism, however, he had to begin developing his other more cerebral, reflective faculties, not being able to resort to his usual defenses. His attention to the dream represents an awakening of 'brain vs. brawn', to put it crudely.  You can see evidence of this in his handling of the siege of Riverrun, as well as his deft management of Ser Loras (whom he recognises as a reflection of his younger, impetuous, arrogant and immature self) and his other Kingsguard brothers on becoming LC of the Kingsguard.  Meeting Brienne coincident with losing his sword hand is likewise a turning point in his life, because she is a reflection of 'the better angels of his nature' as well as being an alternative female figure to Cersei he can relate to.  She teaches him that it's possible for a person to combine strength with gentleness, high idealism with honesty:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jaime V

"The knights of the Kingsguard are sworn to keep the king's secrets. Would you have me break my oath?" Jaime laughed. "Do you think the noble Lord of Winterfell wanted to hear my feeble explanations? Such an honorable man. He only had to look at me to judge me guilty." Jaime lurched to his feet, the water running cold down his chest. "By what right does the wolf judge the lion? By what right?" A violent shiver took him, and he smashed his stump against the rim of the tub as he tried to climb out.

Pain shuddered through him . . . and suddenly the bathhouse was spinning. Brienne caught him before he could fall. Her arm was all gooseflesh, clammy and chilled, but she was strong, and gentler than he would have thought. Gentler than Cersei, he thought as she helped him from the tub, his legs wobbly as a limp cock. "Guards!" he heard the wench shout. "The Kingslayer!"

Jaime, he thought, my name is Jaime.

Jaime is very vulnerable in front of Brienne. He's revealed the truth about himself to her; he's naked, barely standing, governed by pain, 'limp cock'-- and still she catches him, still she protects him, and by implication accepts him as he is, which is an experience he's never had with the Lannisters and specifically any woman for that matter, and is therefore very healing to his psyche (he lost his mother early in life and then had Tywin and Cersei both of whom lack nurturing 'feminine' traits, to say the least).  In the experience of being held by Brienne, Jaime is now ready in turn to start holding -- by which I mean 'serving' --others with more selflessness than hithertofore. That's why he goes back to Harrenhal, to serve someone other than himself.  (I think Nikolaj Coster-Waldau understands this scene and his character's internal psychological state very well. Look up a few of his interviews, if you're interested).

Similarly to Jaime, Theon also had a history of wearing the 'Smiling Knight' persona and relying on 'brawn over brain.' His castration/penectomy was analogous to Jaime losing his sword hand (a sword is a phallic symbol, also in the Nissa Nissa story, etc.; and as I pointed out above the symbolism of Jaime's 'flaccidity' in the bathtub)-- a catastrophic disjunction in his identity which led to him losing his 'self' for a while, thus adopting the 'Reek' persona by Ramsay's coercion, before like Jaime gathering himself and developing other more cerebral, reflective, 'spiritual' faculties, etc.  Analogous to Jaime's moral trajectory, the first thing he does after his 'weirwood awakening,' in which like Jaime he reclaims his name ('Kingslayer' becomes 'Jaime'; 'Reek' becomes 'Theon' again), is turn towards serving someone else (rescuing Jeyne).

GRRM would like to send us a message about making a sacrifice for someone else rather than of someone else, in order to effect change.  @TheSeason and @Kingmonkey, among others, have spoken about this theme on other threads.

6 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

..why does Brienne also have a burning sword?

I'm not entirely sure of the symbolism, but it could be foreshadowing of him giving Brienne Oathkeeper, which is one of two -- Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail both having been forged from Ice, and Widow's Wail presumably still being in Lannister possession.  Giving someone your sword has symbolic significance: it's a token of a pact, or even a marriage; it can be a phallic symbol, so sexuality, marital consummation, and childbirth are all included in that...'forging' a sword comes to have multiple connotations.  Since Jaime as head of House Lannister and Brienne now carry the twin swords respectively of House Stark (these old swords 'remember'), this is also a symbolic indication that Jaime's course is separating from his biological twin.  Brienne is his new 'twin' reflection after which he will model himself instead of Cersei.  I also think deep down he admires, trusts, is attracted to, and may even love her.  GRRM revels in subverting our prejudices and inverting the Beauty-Beast paradigm.  She's the female version of 'Arthur Dayne'-- Jaime's dream woman!:

Quote

 “Give me the sword, Kingslayer.”

    “Oh, I will.” He sprang to his feet and drove at her, the longsword alive in his hands. Brienne jumped back, parrying, but he followed, pressing the attack. No sooner did she turn one cut than the next was upon her. The swords kissed and sprang apart and kissed again. Jaime’s blood was singing. This was what he was meant for; he never felt so alive as when he was fighting, with death balanced on every stroke. And with my wrists chained together, the wench may even give me a contest for a time. His chains forced him to use a two-handed grip, though of course the weight and reach were less than if the blade had been a true two-handed greatsword, but what did it matter? His cousin’s sword was long enough to write an end to this Brienne of Tarth.

    High, low, overhand, he rained down steel upon her. Left, right, backslash, swinging so hard that sparks flew when the swords came together, upswing, sideslash, overhand, always attacking, moving into her, step and slide, strike and step, step and strike, hacking, slashing, faster, faster, faster . . .

    . . . until, breathless, he stepped back and let the point of the sword fall to the ground, giving her a moment of respite. “Not half bad,” he acknowledged. “For a wench.”

    She took a slow deep breath, her eyes watching him warily. “I would not hurt you, Kingslayer.”

    “As if you could.” He whirled the blade back up above his head and flew at her again, chains rattling.

    Jaime could not have said how long he pressed the attack. It might have been minutes or it might have been hours; time slept when swords woke. He drove her away from his cousin’s corpse, drove her across the road, drove her into the trees. She stumbled once on a root she never saw, and for a moment he thought she was done, but she went to one knee instead of falling, and never lost a beat. Her sword leapt up to block a downcut that would have opened her from shoulder to groin, and then she cut at him, again and again, fighting her way back to her feet stroke by stroke.

  The dance went on. He pinned her against an oak, cursed as she slipped away, followed her through a shallow brook half-choked with fallen leaves. Steel rang, steel sang, steel screamed and sparked and scraped, and the woman started grunting like a sow at every crash, yet somehow he could not reach her.  It was as as if she had an iron cage around her that stopped every blow. [yip, that's Brienne the Maid's version of a 'chastity belt'!]

    “Not bad at all,” he said when he paused for a second to catch his breath, circling to her right.

    “For a wench?”

    “For a squire, say. A green one.” He laughed a ragged, breathless laugh. “Come on, come on, my sweetling, the music’s still playing. Might I have this dance, my lady?”

    Grunting, she came at him, blade whirling, and suddenly it was Jaime struggling to keep steel from skin. One of her slashes raked across his brow, and blood ran down into his right eye. The Others take her, and Riverrun as well! His skills had gone to rust and rot in that bloody dungeon, and the chains were no great help either. His eye closed, his shoulders were going numb from the jarring they’d taken, and his wrists ached from the weight of chains, manacles, and sword. His longsword grew heavier with every blow, and Jaime knew he was not swinging it as quickly as he’d done earlier, nor raising it as high.

    She is stronger than I am.

    The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain’s strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all. But this was a woman. A huge cow of a woman, to be sure, but even so . . . by rights, she should be the one wearing down.

    Instead she forced him back into the brook again, shouting, “Yield! Throw down the sword!”

    A slick stone turned under Jaime’s foot. As he felt himself falling, he twisted the mischance into a diving lunge. His point scraped past her parry and bit into her upper thigh. A red flower blossomed, and Jaime had an instant to savor the sight of her blood before his knee slammed into a rock. The pain was blinding. Brienne splashed into him and kicked away his sword. “YIELD!”

    Jaime drove his shoulder into her legs, bringing her down on top of him. They rolled, kicking and punching until finally she was sitting astride him. He managed to jerk her dagger from its sheath, but before he could plunge it into her belly she caught his wrist and slammed his hands back on a rock so hard he thought she’d wrenched an arm from its socket. Her other hand spread across his face. “Yield!” She shoved his head down, held it under, pulled it up. “Yield!” Jaime spit water into her face. A shove, a splash, and he was under again, kicking uselessly, fighting to breathe. Up again. “Yield, or I’ll drown you!”

    “And break your oath?” he snarled. “Like me?”

    She let him go, and he went down with a splash.

    And the woods rang with coarse laughter.

    Brienne lurched to her feet. She was all mud and blood below the waist, her clothing askew, her face red. She looks as if they caught us fucking instead of fighting. Jaime crawled over the rocks to shallow water, wiping the blood from his eye with his chained hands. Armed men lined both sides of the brook. Small wonder, we were making enough noise to wake a dragon. “Well met, friends,” he called to them amiably. “My pardons if I disturbed you. You caught me chastising my wife.”

    “Seemed to me she was doing the chastising.”

He's going to 'give her the sword...you shall have it...'  How many more double entendres do we need from GRRM in order to understand what's happening..?!  Then again, maybe one of them will end up killing the other, should you prefer the more prosaic interpretation.

They were 'making enough noise to wake a dragon'-- hmmm...that's a metaphor for childbirth.

[Cridefea]

 

1 hour ago, Cowboy Dan said:

 

Okay now I get you. Well it's like asking how Dany worked out putting the dragon eggs in Drogo's funeral pyre would birth them. They're prophetic dreams and as Jaime thinks in his dream:

How does he know? He just does. The dream makes him certain of it just as Dany was when birthing dragons. Shit's magic, explaining it takes all the fun away! 

Even in my dreams I have "the certainty of dream" but there's no magic in them, not even in my life.  But I'm quite sure that if I woke up and found out I were sleeping on a powerful magic tree I'd give more credit to my dreams! What I was wondering is precisely that. Is Jaime's decision (to come back) affected by the discovery of weirwood?  (BTW I hope not)

1 hour ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I believe that dream has multiple layers to explore. I definitely think he has a psychological effect on him, realising what he may become ig he doesn't change 

 

This is my thought. The three layers I was talking about in the firts post. 

[Meera of Tarth]

27 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Sometimes you need a weirwood stump to knock some sense into you!  Jaime's head was 'pounding' after the dream, implying the weirwood stump had 'pounded' in some new self-awareness.  It's psychoanalysis Westerosi-style!  I agree with this:

The loss of Jaime's sword hand represented a turning point.  Prior to that, he had always relied on his superior talent for violence, which he applied liberally, expediently, impulsively, and flippantly in order to enforce his aims (or rather Cersei's aims, since he had not yet individuated himself from his twin's agenda).  Following this blow to his narcissism, however, he had to begin developing his other more cerebral, reflective faculties, not being ably to resort to his usual defenses. His attention to the dream represents an awakening of 'brain vs. brawn', to put it crudely.  You can see evidence of this in his handling of the siege of Riverrun, as well as his deft management of Ser Loras (whom he recognises as a reflection of his younger, impetuous, arrogant and immature self) and his other Kingsguard brothers on becoming LC of the Kingsguard.  Meeting Brienne coincident with losing his sword hand is likewise a turning point in his life, because she is a reflection of 'the better angels of his nature' as well as being an alternative female figure to Cersei he can relate to.  She teaches him that it's possible for a person to combine strength with gentleness, high idealism with honesty:

Jaime is very vulnerable in front of Brienne. He's revealed the truth about himself to her; he's naked, barely standing, governed by pain, 'limp cock'-- and still she catches him, still she protects him, and by implication accepts him as he is, which is an experience he's never had with the Lannisters and specifically any woman for that matter, and is therefore very healing to his psyche (he lost his mother early in life and then had Tywin and Cersei both of whom lack nurturing 'feminine' traits, to say the least).  In the experience of being held by Brienne, Jaime is now ready in turn to start holding -- by which I mean 'serving' --others with more selflessness than hithertofore. That's why he goes back to Harrenhal, to serve someone other than himself.  (I think Nikolaj Coster-Waldau understands this scene and his character's internal psychological state very well. Look up a few of his interviews, if you're interested).

Similarly to Jaime, Theon also had a history of wearing the 'Smiling Knight' persona and relying on 'brawn over brain.' His castration/penectomy was analogous to Jaime losing his sword hand (a sword is a phallic symbol, also in the Nissa Nissa story, etc.; and as I pointed out above the symbolism of Jaime's 'flaccidity' in the bathtub)-- a catastrophic disjunction in his identity which led to him losing his 'self' for a while, thus adopting the 'Reek' persona by Ramsay's coercion, before like Jaime gathering himself and developing other more cerebral, reflective, 'spiritual' faculties, etc.  Analogous to Jaime's moral trajectory, the first thing he does after his 'weirwood awakening,' in which like Jaime he reclaims his name ('Kingslayer' becomes 'Jaime'; 'Reek' becomes 'Theon' again), is turn towards serving someone else (rescuing Jeyne).

GRRM would like to send us a message about making a sacrifice for someone else rather than of someone else, in order to effect change.  @TheSeason and @Kingmonkey, among others, have spoken about this theme on other threads.

I'm not entirely sure of the symbolism, but it could be foreshadowing of him giving Brienne Oathkeeper, which is one of two -- Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail both having been forged from Ice, and Widow's Wail presumably still being in Lannister possession.  Giving someone your sword has symbolic significance: it's a token of a pact, or even a marriage; it can be a phallic symbol, so sexuality, marital consummation, and childbirth are all included in that...'forging' a sword comes to have multiple connotations.  Since Jaime as head of House Lannister and Brienne now carry the twin swords respectively of House Stark (these old swords 'remember'), this is also a symbolic indication that Jaime's course is separating from his biological twin.  Brienne is his new 'twin' reflection after which he will model himself instead of Cersei.  I also think deep down he admires, trusts, is attracted to, and may even love her.  GRRM revels in subverting our prejudices and inverting the Beauty-Beast paradigm.  She's the female version of 'Arthur Dayne'-- Jaime's dream woman!:

He's going to 'give her the sword...you shall have it...'  How many more double entendres do we need from GRRM in order to understand what's happening..?!  Then again, maybe one of them will end up killing the other, should you prefer the more prosaic interpretation.

They were 'making enough noise to wake a dragon'-- hmmm...that's a metaphor for childbirth.

-Oh, that's really cool.

The part of the symbolism, especially the one involving childbirth.

If we read the dream with the symbolic (phallic) element that the sword has in  other passages, such as the one you posted, it could very well symbolise it, because his wrod stops flaming while Brienne's doesn't.

There is a moment when both swords are flaming too....

 

-The other symbolism: Oathkeeper (as a foreshadowing element) is the most obvious to think, and it makes sense, since he dreams of Joffrey and Tywin being with the dead. (possibly Cersei too?).

@Cridefea about the last layer:

We could also think of what will happen with that sword (if it's Oathkeeper) and if it will be important in the future, because Brienne uses it to defend herself. Might it be important in an upcoming battle?

Then there is the terror element, doe sit foreshadow Jaime dying in a battle, while fighting with Brienne and she surviving?

 

Anyway I think that any of these could be valid, and they are not mutually exclusive. (all the layers I mean)

[Meera of Tarth]

On 30/8/2016 at 2:35 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

There is also a Brienne/ Bear and the Maiden Fair connection when he uses a bear skin as a pillow. So he is double doomed by having the pelt of a bear on top of a weirwood stump before he goes into a Ned-like fever dream. This was such a turning point for me and my cheering Jaime on.

I believe in this too, though it's not part of the "explanation of the dream", but it's nice because it works naturally for the subsequent scenes with Brienne.

[Cridefea]

45 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

 

Great post! I think the sword is going to be a central point. Something foreseen (Oathkeeper) and prophetic.