PINK LETTER

[Makk]

13 hours ago, Goldhands said:

When has Jon seen other letters of Ramsay before? And why would GRRM even include the Deepwood letter when it doesn't seem to have any purpose other than showin us how Ramsay would write a letter to intimidate someone? And if Ramsay actually wrote the PL his only possible motive is to actually intimidate Jon and cause chaos at the NW. That would probably work even better with some pieces of skin and blood for ink.

Jon received a previous letter from Ramsay in ADWD, Jon VI.

Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber. "Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett.
Jon saw no reason not to tell him. "Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …" His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father.
"Lord Snow?" Clydas peered at him closely with his dim pink eyes. "Are you … unwell? You seem …"
"He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. 
 

As you can see he already has a history of sending Jon letters to boast and cause pain and angst. That is his way. As for the purpose of the letter, GRRM needed some way of getting Jon into the fight. It also leaves the reader believing Stannis has lost since there is so much truth in the letter, although the twist is quite probably that Ramsay has false information and Stannis has not lost. 

[Clegane'sPup]

I pondered whether I would respond to this. I don’t much appreciate your innuendoes.

12 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

What he said about autistic people was a personal attack. I called him out for what he is. If you took it personal on his behalf, your problem not mine CP.

Now I'll leave you to it with your new buddy. Enjoy his YouTube inspired threads while they last. 

More likely the autistic remark was poor judgment or ignorance about the condition.

Called him out? What exactly is he? Please specify.

I take nothing personal on this public internet forum. What I do not appreciate is your projection or assumptions.

Why would you assume to presume I got me a new buddy?

See the thing of it is, I don’t even watch Elio’s and Linda’s videos, but thank you for your permission to watch videos.

People on this thread were having a grand time talking shite they wanted to talk about. You jumped in with

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It doesn't look like you have contributed anything at all to this thread, not one comment, apart from creating it and sharing a YouTube clip which you have taken your opinion from. (Which is actually someone else's opinion).

Is that the way of it?

 

You followed up with:

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I'm sure you wrote something original and similar to someone else about parties on your other thread. You know the dumbass one that had that comment by yourself about autism?  Unsurprisingly the mods deleted a heap of it.

By the way you conduct yourself on here I'd place you in your teens so it doesn't surprise me that you get your ideas off YouTube, post them, and then sit back and watch the grown ups discuss the topic for you. It's an unusual method but whatever works for ya young 'Beastmaster.

Yeah you kinda forgot to mention that you started and were involved in a thread that experienced a moderator invention.

Then you went on to attack me

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Speak for yourself. We're not all in the same boat as you and Beastmaster CP. If you build on others ideas I'm sorry you have hit a block and can't find nothing original to create posts with.

I have begun and been part of quite a lot of original threads and ideas and they ain't slowing down anytime soon. 

And don't start that dramatic personal attack rubbish, Beastmaster knows what I'm talking about, you must have missed his moment of genius autism slur, but others didn't.

I think both Beastmaster and I require an apology from you. The moderator’s can delete my post or they can leave it.

 

 

[Goldhands]

6 minutes ago, Makk said:

Jon received a previous letter from Ramsay in ADWD, Jon VI.

Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber. "Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett.
Jon saw no reason not to tell him. "Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …" His heart seemed to stop for a moment. No, that is not possible. She died in King's Landing, with Father.
"Lord Snow?" Clydas peered at him closely with his dim pink eyes. "Are you … unwell? You seem …"
"He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. 
 

As you can see he already has a history of sending Jon letters to boast and cause pain and angst. That is his way. As for the purpose of the letter, GRRM needed some way of getting Jon into the fight. It also leaves the reader believing Stannis has lost since there is so much truth in the letter, although the twist is quite probably that Ramsay has false information and Stannis has not lost. 

I don't agree with your conclusion but thanks for showing this to me, guess I simply forgot about that letter. Still it's weird that these details like the "huge, spiky hand" don't get mentioned when Jon receives the Pink Letter. For example GRRM could've easily wrote something like "he instantly recognized the huge, spiky hand the letter was written in".

Someone here mentioned that Jon would've probably recognized if it wasn't Ramsay's hand, however, I don't agree with that. Jon was in a very pressured situation at that time and was probably shocked by the content of the letter. I think it would be reasonable  if he wouldn't recognize it.

[Makk]

Do recall though that Jon did not act on the letter impulsively. It hit him hard but he responded calmly and considered. He actively questioned the authenticity of it. He sat down with Tormund and plotted for hours. Jon is perceptive enough to realise if someone else was actually writing the letter.

"Not often," Jon Snow admitted. Dark wings, dark words. Perhaps there was more truth to those wise old sayings than he'd known. "It was sent by Ramsay Snow. I'll read you what he wrote."
When he was done, Tormund whistled. "Har. That's buggered, and no mistake. What was that about Mance? Has him in a cage, does he? How, when hundreds saw your red witch burn the man?"
That was Rattleshirt, Jon almost said. That was sorcery. A glamor, she called it. "Melisandre … look to the skies, she said." He set the letter down. "A raven in a storm. She saw this coming." When you have your answers, send to me.
"Might be all a skin o' lies." Tormund scratched under his beard. "If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o' maester's ink, I could write down that me member was long and thick as me arm, wouldn't make it so."
"He has Lightbringer. He talks of heads upon the walls of Winterfell. He knows about the spearwives and their number." He knows about Mance Rayder. "No. There is truth in there."
"I won't say you're wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?"
Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …
"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.
They talked for the best part of two hours.
 

 

[Goldhands]

Well, how he acted after that doesn't occur that well considered to me. Also the letter being not mentioned to be written in the typical Ramsay-style is not the only argument againt Ramsay writing the PL. How would Ramsay, for example, even know of people like Val? Through torturing Mance? I don't quite get how it would come to him mentioning her. Why would he even want to get Val, Mel and Mance's son? And why doesn't he seem to care for Shireen at all? After all, with Stannis being dead, she would be his heir and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

There are also some other clues, pointing towards other characters: Stannis always refers to Val as "the wildling princess", Theon mentions "he wants his bride back and he wants his Reek" to Stannis in the Theon sample chapter, "black crows" is a term most of the time used by wildlings etc.

[Makk]

2 hours ago, Goldhands said:

Well, how he acted after that doesn't occur that well considered to me. Also the letter being not mentioned to be written in the typical Ramsay-style is not the only argument againt Ramsay writing the PL. How would Ramsay, for example, even know of people like Val? Through torturing Mance? I don't quite get how it would come to him mentioning her. Why would he even want to get Val, Mel and Mance's son? And why doesn't he seem to care for Shireen at all? After all, with Stannis being dead, she would be his heir and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

There are also some other clues, pointing towards other characters: Stannis always refers to Val as "the wildling princess", Theon mentions "he wants his bride back and he wants his Reek" to Stannis in the Theon sample chapter, "black crows" is a term most of the time used by wildlings etc.

Of course he would torture Mance and the Spearwives if he caught them. They just made off with fArya and Reek and he would want to know who was behind it, and he has a vendetta against everyone involved. I doubt he expects Jon to accede to any of these demands of course, it's just his usual threatening behavior combined with anger.

He does specifically refer to Shireen...I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch

As for the manner of speech, by your own argument you contradict your argument. The letter cannot possibly have been written by Mance and Stannis, yet the term "black crows" and "wildling princess" is used. So you can see straight away, just because some person uses words to describe something, does not mean another person cannot use the same words. Black crows to me just seems like a derogatory term for the nights watch. Wildling princess is just how everyone south of the wall would describe Val after getting a basic description of her. Theon calls himself Ramsay's Reek because that is what Ramsay has called him.

[Macgregor of the North]

11 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I pondered whether I would respond to this. I don’t much appreciate your innuendoes.

More likely the autistic remark was poor judgment or ignorance about the condition.

Called him out? What exactly is he? Please specify.

I take nothing personal on this public internet forum. What I do not appreciate is your projection or assumptions.

Why would you assume to presume I got me a new buddy?

See the thing of it is, I don’t even watch Elio’s and Linda’s videos, but thank you for your permission to watch videos.

People on this thread were having a grand time talking shite they wanted to talk about. You jumped in with

 

 

 

You followed up with:

Yeah you kinda forgot to mention that you started and were involved in a thread that experienced a moderator invention.

Then you went on to attack me

I think both Beastmaster and I require an apology from you. The moderator’s can delete my post or they can leave it.

 

 

The mods won't delete this. They have better things to do Cp.

Why have you taken it personally that I've scorned a person who poured ugliness on a disability?

Your in the wrong CP, siding with that individual, And the thing is--- You damn well know it.Which takes me and you to the end of our journey. My minds made up. Me and you ain't never discussing things again on here. 

If you side with a guy who makes fun of disabled people then don't ever tag me, or come on a thread of mine ever again, or you will be met with an icy wrath.

 Seriously. I thought you were better!!

[Clegane'sPup]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

The mods won't delete this. They have better things to do Cp.

Why have you taken it personally that I've scorned a person who poured ugliness on a disability?

Your in the wrong CP, siding with that individual, And the thing is--- You damn well know it.Which takes me and you to the end of our journey. My minds made up. Me and you ain't never discussing things again on here. 

If you side with a guy who makes fun of disabled people then don't ever tag me, or come on a thread of mine ever again, or you will be met with an icy wrath.

 Seriously. I thought you were better!!

 

[Goldhands]

I'm not saying neither that Mance wrote the letter, nor that Stannis wrote it. For example it could be Theon, he was in contact with both of them and he used the phrase "he wants his bride back and he wants his Reek".

And yes, I agree with you that he'd torture him (I never said he wouldn't). But how could it come to Mance telling Roose / Ramsay of Val in said torture? They don't even know that she exists so how could they ask him about her?

Furthermore I also never said that Shireen wasn't in the letter at all, I just said that Ramsay doesn't seem to care about her very much, since he only mentioned her in like one sentence.

 

I'm not arguing for anyone specifical to have written the PL, I'm just arguing that I don't find it likely that GRRM would just pick the obvious solution for the major ADWD cliffhanger, even if it speaks against so many hints he gave before.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

I can't make up my mind who wrote the pink/bastard letter. There was a poster who brought the four letters together and provided observations. Here's the link for those who are interested. Inside the reveal tabs you will find the letters.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

22 hours ago, Jon Snows Ghost said:

Stannis motive = Bringing a Wildling host with him to battle like he intended on doing by making Jon lord of Winterfell in ASOS.

First of all we are talking about Stannis, the same character who would not call Robert his beloved brother because it was not true and insisted on calling Jaime Ser, so him lying is completely out of character.

Second of all Stannis already tried to get Jon to come south with him and failed, now you are suggesting that telling Jon the odds are much longer that he could hope to succeed is suppose to increase the likelihood of him coming.  While that is what wound up happening, Stannis is not omniscient and no one in their right mind would come up with that plan.  If you are somehow brilliant enough to do so, then you should be brilliant enough to realize it could lead to a mutinee and Jons death, which it did, so it wasn't really brilliant at all.

Third, if Stannis did want reinforcements the situation has changed since he left the wall, at that time there were about 300 wildlings now there are a few thousand.  He does not need Jon to come south if he wants those reinforcements all he has to do is order them(in his mind).  Again this isn't true but he will think it is, he does not know they will only follow Jon he tries to take the wildlings when he left so he obviously did not consider how they decide their loyalties.  

To sum all this up if Stannis wanted men he has no reason and it is completely out of character for him to lie about the situation.  When you try to get men to join you you want them to think you can win you play up victories and play down defeats, not vice versa, Stannis faking his death is for Ramsay, Ramsay has bought it and sent it onto Jon which has now lead to unforeseen consequences. Jon getting killed.

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

3 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

First of all we are talking about Stannis, the same character who would not call Robert his beloved brother because it was not true and insisted on calling Jaime Ser, so him lying is completely out of character.

But Stannis did lie about killing Mance, as was in the PL, so it isn't that out of question he would lie about this. Sure, he doesn't like lying, and wouldn't do it unless absolutely necessary, but he would do it. We are told Stannis breaks before he bends, but everything we know about Stannis shows this is not the case. When he 'bends' to gain an army after Renly's death, for example. If Stannis got what he wanted, these Lords would all be beheaded for treason, but he doesn't punish them at all. He also does what he feels needs to be done, but what he doesn't want to do, in killing Renly, Cortnay Penrose and Edric Storm (had Davos not saved him). So Stannis isn't as rigid as you make him out to be.

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

But Stannis did lie about killing Mance, as was in the PL, so it isn't that out of question he would lie about this. Sure, he doesn't like lying, and wouldn't do it unless absolutely necessary, but he would do it. We are told Stannis breaks before he bends, but everything we know about Stannis shows this is not the case. When he 'bends' to gain an army after Renly's death, for example. If Stannis got what he wanted, these Lords would all be beheaded for treason, but he doesn't punish them at all. He also does what he feels needs to be done, but what he doesn't want to do, in killing Renly, Cortnay Penrose and Edric Storm (had Davos not saved him). So Stannis isn't as rigid as you make him out to be.

We have no information that says Stannis knows about the lie that is Mances life. In fact, since Melissandre tells Jon that she was in immense pain and could barely hold on, I would think that were Stannis in on the plan she would have told him it would be difficult for her and could fail, and thus a different form of execution would be better.

[Goldhands]

12 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

We have no information that says Stannis knows about the lie that is Mances life. In fact, since Melissandre tells Jon that she was in immense pain and could barely hold on, I would think that were Stannis in on the plan she would have told him it would be difficult for her and could fail, and thus a different form of execution would be better.

Stannis needs to know that Mance is alive and will rescue Arya in my opinion. That's the only way Stannis's plan of marching straight on Winterfell makes sense to me. He wanted to pick up Arya from Mance and lure the Boltons out of Winterfell that way. Or do you think Stannis (the genuis battle commander as he's presented to us) would just march to Winterfell without having any plan on how to take it (like he did in the HBO show)?

[Ser Scott Malkinson]

59 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

We have no information that says Stannis knows about the lie that is Mances life. In fact, since Melissandre tells Jon that she was in immense pain and could barely hold on, I would think that were Stannis in on the plan she would have told him it would be difficult for her and could fail, and thus a different form of execution would be better.

Mel advising Stannis NOT to burn someone?  

But seriously, you may be right that Stannis didn't know. But even if he didn't lie before, my argument still stands that Stannis could have lied now if he had thought it absolutely necessary (him having the information required to have written the PL does become problematic though... but Stannis wasn't my top candidate for it anyway).

[aryagonnakill#2]

4 hours ago, Goldhands said:

Stannis needs to know that Mance is alive and will rescue Arya in my opinion. That's the only way Stannis's plan of marching straight on Winterfell makes sense to me. He wanted to pick up Arya from Mance and lure the Boltons out of Winterfell that way. Or do you think Stannis (the genuis battle commander as he's presented to us) would just march to Winterfell without having any plan on how to take it (like he did in the HBO show)?

That's the whole reason Stannis is faking his death, so he can pass some of northern clansmen off as Karstark men/send some Manderlys back/pass of some of his men as Freys, to get them back into the castle to let the rest of them in.

 

3 hours ago, Ser Scott Malkinson said:

Mel advising Stannis NOT to burn someone?  

But seriously, you may be right that Stannis didn't know. But even if he didn't lie before, my argument still stands that Stannis could have lied now if he had thought it absolutely necessary (him having the information required to have written the PL does become problematic though... but Stannis wasn't my top candidate for it anyway).

Lol.

I'm not saying Stannis doesn't have a motive to call for reinforcements, what I'm saying is that he has no reason to lie about it to Jon.  Saying that he won the battle and now that Jon has lots of wildlings he really needs some more man power to take Winterfell is the logical way to go about doing it.

[The Drunkard]

9 hours ago, Goldhands said:

Stannis needs to know that Mance is alive and will rescue Arya in my opinion. That's the only way Stannis's plan of marching straight on Winterfell makes sense to me. He wanted to pick up Arya from Mance and lure the Boltons out of Winterfell that way. Or do you think Stannis (the genuis battle commander as he's presented to us) would just march to Winterfell without having any plan on how to take it (like he did in the HBO show)?

He didn't march straight to Winterfell. When he left the Wall to rally the mountain clans and liberate Deepwood Motte, Winterfell was a ruin inhabited by squatters and the Boltons were at Barrowton. Only after Stannis rallied a sizable army did Roose hunker down in Winterfell, and at that stage Stannis was forced to march else he would lose his new support.

"Let Stannis march on us. He is too cautious to come to Barrowton … but he must come to Winterfell. His clansmen will not abandon the daughter of their precious Ned to such as you. Stannis must march or lose them …"

Even prisoners have ears, and she had heard all the talk at Deepwood Motte, when King Stannis and his captains were debating this march. Ser Justin had opposed it from the start, along with many of the knights and lords who had come with Stannis from the south. But the wolves insisted; Roose Bolton could not be suffered to hold Winterfell, and the Ned's girl must be rescued from the clutches of his bastard. So said Morgan Liddle, Brandon Norrey, Big Bucket Wull, the Flints, even the She-Bear.

The alternative to marching was to risk losing the many thousands of northmen that had just come to his cause, which would make him easy pickings for the Bolton forces, so better to risk a march and hope that an opportunity presents itself.