Joffrey's wedding gifts - What do they represent?

[Seams]

In ASoS (Sansa IV), eleven "groom gifts" are mentioned. These are given to Joffrey alone, separate from gifts given to Margaery:

Cersei: the wife's cloak that he would drape over Margaery's shoulders. "It is the cloak I donned when Robert took me for his queen, the same cloak my mother Lady Joanna wore when wed to my lord father." Sansa thought it looked threadbare, if truth be told, but perhaps because it was so used.

Jalabhar Xho:a great bow of golden wood and quiver of long arrows fletched with green and scarlet feathers;

Lady Tanda: a pair of supple riding boots;

Ser Kevan: a magnificent red leather jousting saddle;

Prince Oberyn: a red gold brooch wrought in the shape of a scorpion;

Ser Addam Marbrand: silver spurs;

Lord Mathis Rowan: a red silk tourney pavilion.

Lord Paxter Redwyne: a beautiful wooden model of the war galley of two hundred oars being built even now on the Arbor.

Tyrion and Sansa: a huge old book called Lives of Four Kings, bound in leather and gorgeously illuminated. Grand Maester Kaeth's history of the reigns of Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the Blessed, Aegon the Unworthy, and Daeron the Good.

Lord Mace Tyrell: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. "Seven faces for Your Grace's seven kingdoms," the bride's father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf.

Lord Tywin: a longsword. Its scabbard was made of cherrywood, gold, and oiled red leather, studded with golden lions' heads. The lions had ruby eyes.

"A great sword must have a great name, my lords! What shall I call it?"

The guests were shouting out names for the new blade. Joff dimissed a dozen before he heard one he liked. "Widow's Wail!" he cried. "Yes! It shall make many a widow, too!"

Why are these eleven gifts listed? I assume each one carries some meaning.

Tyrion's Book

I have a guess about the Lives of the Four Kings book given by Tyrion and Sansa. I believe it represents foreshadowing but also some explanation about the kings who have recently died. The four kings discussed in the book are Daeron the Young Dragon, Baelor the Blessed, Aegon the Unworthy, and Daeron the Good. I think GRRM wants us to match up these four with Robb Stark, Balon Greyjoy and Renly Baratheon, as well as Joffrey who is about to become the fourth dead king out of the "War of the Five Kings" group. 

The matches aren't exact, of course; the threads I've explored that discuss repetition of history and myth seem to agree that there are echoes and inversions and reordering of details each time we see the wheel come around. I would match up the following "War of the Five Kings" leaders with the historical figures in Tyrion's book:

Robb Stark with Daeron I Targaryen. Daeron ascended to the throne at the age of fourteen and is famous for conquering Dorne, which he wrote about in his Conquest of Dorne. Robb was made King in the North as a teenager and he had notable success as a military leader.

Balon Greyjoy with Baelor I Targaryen, known as the Beloved and the Blessed. This match-up might not seem valid. I guess I'm persuaded by the theories in this forum that Balon's body has been used by the Faceless Men to create the character of the High Sparrow. So this is an ironic match, if correct: Baelor was truly devout, while Balon didn't even worship the Seven Gods.

Joffrey with King Aegon IV Targaryen. Known as Aegon the Unworthy he is considered to be one of the worst Targaryen kings. Joffrey would have been a bad king, most people agree.

Renly with Daeron II Targaryen. Daeron the Good. His bastard half-brother, Daemon Blackfyre, challenged his rule and the result was a terrible civil war, the Blackfyre Rebellion. The war was mostly won by his sons and his other half-brother, Brynden Rivers. Daeron died during the Great Spring Sickness in 209 AC.

The destruction of the book is significant, I think. We saw the Winterfell library burned before the attempt on Bran's life. We see this book destroyed before Joffrey's death. Roose Bolton also burns a book in a fire at Harrenhal, and he is the one who will kill Robb Stark at the Red Wedding.

Other gifts

The threadbare wife's cloak is part of the fabric and sewing motif that I love: the fabric of Westeros is worn out after two generations of Lannisters in powerful positions in King's Landing (Tywin as Hand and Cersei as Queen), but Cersei can't see it.

The riding boots could be interesting. I believe that Bran says skinchanging into Hodor is like slipping into an old pair of boots. Arya takes the nice boots that belong to Dareon the singer who deserts from the Night's Watch in Braavos. Eventually, she throws them in the canal with her other possessions.

Tyrion "gave" Bran a special saddle design. Is there a tie here to the saddle Ser Kevan Lannister gives to his grand-nephew?

The scorpion pin seems to imply a surprise attack by poison, to me. Can't imagine why Oberyn would think that was an appropriate gift for a Lannister.

I'd be curious to hear whether anyone can think of possible interpretations or connections for the other gifts, or more meaningful associations than the ones I have guessed at.

Which important wedding guests are not mentioned among the eleven gift-givers named in Sansa's POV? There must have been hundreds of wedding gifts, with a thousand guests expected for the wedding. The book says it is a custom from the Reach to give separate gifts to the bride and groom the morning before the wedding, so maybe most of the gifts came from Margaery's side of the family. Which makes it curious that Ser Garlan, Ser Loras and Lady Olenna aren't mentioned among the gift-givers. Maybe Sansa just gives us the highlights. Anyone included among the eleven who surprises you?

I am also curious which wedding guest suggested the name for Joffrey's sword. Anyone care to guess? For what it's worth, Widow's Wail is the name of a flower.

[BlueNightzx]

sometimes a gift is just a gift, you're reading too deep man, relax

the only gift that had some hidden meaning was tyrion's book like "here your little shit, it would do you some good to read about those kings and learn something"

other than that, was just royal ass kissing.

[Seams]

9 hours ago, BlueNightzx said:

sometimes a gift is just a gift, you're reading too deep man, relax

the only gift that had some hidden meaning was tyrion's book like "here your little shit, it would do you some good to read about those kings and learn something"

other than that, was just royal ass kissing.

Silly me! I keep thinking these books are deep and complex. Luckily, you have come along to remind me that GRRM is just a shallow hack writing pulp for mass consumption.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think the brooch is also an insult about his heritage. It's neither a stag nor a lion, but a pest and an "insect" (arachnid) known for stinging itself to death. 

The cup, in addition to being a murder weapon, communicates Mace's unambitious conservatism, and his non-involvement in Tywin's scheming. When Joffrey starts defacing the cup, it's not just an insulting gesture, it's also an expression of political incompatibility. 

The horsemanship / archery equipment is ironic as Joffrey seemingly sucks at martial pursuits, and there's been this continuous looming threat of Dothraki invasion. 

[Raisin' Bran]

14 hours ago, Seams said:

The riding boots could be interesting. I believe that Bran says skinchanging into Hodor is like slipping into an old pair of boots. Arya takes the nice boots that belong to Dareon the singer who deserts from the Night's Watch in Braavos. Eventually, she throws them in the canal with her other possessions.

Sorry, it was from Varamyr that stated skinchanging dogs becomes like slipping on a pair of old boots and the boots Lady Tanda gave, though surely soft like old boots, were not worn like old boots.

Quote

Dogs were the easiest to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. (ADwD, Varamyr)

And Arya gave Daeron's boots to Brusco,

Quote

By the time Cat returned to Brusco's house, an evening fog was gathering about the small canal. She put away her barrow, found Brusco in his counting room, and thumped her purse down on the table in front of him. she thumped the boots down too. (AFfC, Cat of the Canals)

 

7 minutes ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

I think the brooch is also an insult about his heritage. It's neither a stag nor a lion, but a pest and an "insect" (arachnid) known for stinging itself to death. 

The cup, in addition to being a murder weapon, communicates Mace's unambitious conservatism, and his non-involvement in Tywin's scheming. When Joffrey starts defacing the cup, it's not just an insulting gesture, it's also an expression of political incompatibility. 

The horsemanship / archery equipment is ironic as Joffrey seemingly sucks at martial pursuits, and there's been this continuous looming threat of Dothraki invasion. 

I can get on board with this for the most part (I think Joffrey is no good at archery, but we don't see him jousting)

I also wanted to comment on the chalice. I thought it interesting that despite the Starks being attainted and Roose Bolton being the new Lord Paramount, the direwolf was still depicted.

I can try giving it more thought though about the other gifts.

[Seams]

4 hours ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

I think the brooch is also an insult about his heritage. It's neither a stag nor a lion, but a pest and an "insect" (arachnid) known for stinging itself to death. 

The cup, in addition to being a murder weapon, communicates Mace's unambitious conservatism, and his non-involvement in Tywin's scheming. When Joffrey starts defacing the cup, it's not just an insulting gesture, it's also an expression of political incompatibility. 

The horsemanship / archery equipment is ironic as Joffrey seemingly sucks at martial pursuits, and there's been this continuous looming threat of Dothraki invasion. 

I bet you're right on the brooch. The brooches of high-born men do tend to show their house sigil, so there has to be a reason Oberyn would give something other than a stag or a lion. Maybe it is the Martell way of saying that the Lannisters are murdering insects. Joffrey had irritated Tywin by saying that Tywin had hidden under a rock while Joffrey's "father" had fought boldly. So maybe the scorpion continues that hiding under a rock motif.

The cup ends up being such an important "player" in the feast - part of the humiliation of Tyrion, believed to be a vessel for poison. I wish I had a clear idea of the symbolism of wine throughout the series. Often it seems to represent blood but I've seen analysis that Arbor Gold represents lies. Either one would be appropriate for the fate that is soon to overtake Joffrey. Of the seven sigils on the cup, some member of each House would have reason to wish Joffrey and his family ill: Martells, Tullys, Starks, Arryns and Baratheons because his family killed their family members (I'm assuming that Cersei helped kill King Robert and that people believe the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn); Lannister and Tyrell because he is a jerk and will make a bad king and husband.

I wouldn't describe Mace Tyrell as unambitious - Olenna pretends he is the only one in the family who wants Margaery to be queen but I don't quite believe that - his ambition is shared by the entire Tyrell team, so far as I can tell. The size of the cup would indicate that Mace is a guy who is happy to show off his wealth and who really wants to call attention to the fact that his daughter is marrying a king - one who rules the seven kingdoms; maybe one who drinks the "blood" of those seven great families. That's one way to show dominance.

Joffrey's threat to chip the direwolf off the cup is more of a message to Sansa than to Mace, although I agree that the Tyrells and Lannisters have no genuine affection or trust for each other. But the separating of the wolf's head from the cup (blood supply?) is also a motif with Joffrey, as he threatened to defeat Robb Stark in combat and to feed his body to wolves, and then to make Sansa eat Robb's head at Joffrey's wedding feast.

Returning to the sword among the gifts: If you re-read the wedding feast scene with the idea that Joffrey is being made into a sword, it appears that the Tyrells are the smiths. Here are a couple of key excerpts:

"Have a care, Your Grace," Ser Addam Marbrand warned the king. "Valyrian steel is perilously sharp."

"I remember." Joffrey brought Widow's Wail down in a savage twohanded slice, onto the book that Tyrion had given him. The heavy leather cover parted at a stroke. "Sharp! I told you, I am no stranger to Valyrian steel."

Tobho Mott has told us that old swords remember. The second part I have bolded is one of those cleverly vague choices of words that GRRM uses so well - what does Joffrey mean by saying he is no stranger? He is not the god of the Seven who represents death? It's an idiom, of course, that indicates he is familiar with Valyrian steel. His families did not have Valyrian steel swords, but Tyrion suspects that Joffrey procured the Valyrian steel dagger that was used in the attempt on Bran Stark's life. Is this drunken statement about his familiarity with Valyrian steel an admission of guilt by Joffrey? In a little while, we will see a man who embodies the Stranger, Ser Ilyn Payne, provide a mysterious sword to Joffrey for the purpose of cutting the dove-filled pie. Is Joffrey's "no stranger" remark foreshadowing of the death's-head-pommel sword about to be placed in his hands?

When Joffrey starts choking, we have Ser Garlan Tyrell pounding him on the back and Mace Tyrell bellowing. These are the actions of a smith in a forge - pounding and using a bellows. Joffrey's nails tearing flesh, Joffrey making a clacking sound, and his face turning red and then black. Joffrey pointing. Swords tear flesh, clack against other swords, point. When they are being forged, swords turn red and then black.

I was quite convinced by an earlier interpretation of sword clues in the wedding preparations and feast scene that contact poison on a sword hilt or the runes on Ser Ilyn's sword had caused Joffrey's death. Now I'm wondering whether the clues I was seeing were part of this "reforging" symbolism: not necessarily causing Joffrey's death, but somehow transforming him into a new sword. Tommen? Will Widow's Wail come back into the story in a way that shows Joffrey's intentions being carried out; the sword symbolizing Joffrey's continuing presence in the world?

I agree with the irony of a lot of the other gifts - that people envision Joffrey jousting or going to war seems to be pretense on everyone's part. One thought I had is that maybe these are symbolic "grave goods". Noble people in the Celtic culture would be buried with weapons and brooches and cups and horse gear to take along to the afterlife. The wedding guests wouldn't be aware that Joffrey is about to die, of course, but the author could be setting up a grand send-off for Joffrey's funeral.

[Seams]

6 hours ago, Raisin(g) Bran 2 Greenseer said:

Sorry, it was from Varamyr that stated skinchanging dogs becomes like slipping on a pair of old boots and the boots Lady Tanda gave, though surely soft like old boots, were not worn like old boots.

And Arya gave Daeron's boots to Brusco,

This was the quote about Bran that I had in mind:

. . . he slipped his skin, and reached for Hodor.

It was not like sliding into Summer. That was so easy now that Bran hardly thought about it. This was harder, like trying to pull a left boot on your right foot. It fit all wrong, and the boot was scared too, the boot didn't know what was happening, the boot was pushing the foot away. He tasted vomit in the back of Hodor's throat, and that was almost enough to make him flee. Instead he squirmed and shoved, sat up, gathered his legs under him—his huge strong legs—and rose. I'm standing. He took a step. I'm walking.

(ASoS, Bran IV)

Any you're right, the boots Arya threw in the canal were not the same pair she took from Dareon:

At the water's edge she stopped, the silver fork in hand. It was real silver, solid through and through. It's not my fork. It was Salty that he gave it to. She tossed it underhand, heard the soft plop as it sank below the water.

Her floppy hat went next, then the gloves. They were Salty's too. She emptied her pouch into her palm; five silver stags, nine copper stars, some pennies and halfpennies and groats. She scattered them across the water. Next her boots. They made the loudest splashes. Her dagger followed, the one she'd gotten off the archer who had begged the Hound for mercy. Her swordbelt went into the canal. Her cloak, tunic, breeches, smallclothes, all of it. All but Needle.

(AFfC, Arya II)

 

[BlueNightzx]

On 8/30/2016 at 11:02 AM, Seams said:

Silly me! I keep thinking these books are deep and complex. Luckily, you have come along to remind me that GRRM is just a shallow hack writing pulp for mass consumption.

Keep your sarcasm for yourself, don't get all pissy because someone dared to contradict you, learn to accept difference of opinions in a civilized, courteous way.

if every rock, every peasant, every wine flagon held some secret meaning and symbolism it would detract value and weight from the real symbolism and complexity of the book, becoming rather pedant and pompous.

even george once said (i don't recall when) that sometimes, fans read to much and too deep into simple things. there is a lot of symbolism in asoiaf, and i love to search them in every re-read, but this particular occasion that you are saying i don't see nothing of substance other than people giving gifts based on their personalities, rank and relationship to the king.

A knight give silver spurs, and the lord of the biggest fleet in westeros gives the model of a galley, jeez i wonder why.

i respect your opinion, respect my

cheers.

[Seams]

42 minutes ago, BlueNightzx said:

Keep your sarcasm for yourself, don't get all pissy because someone dared to contradict you, learn to accept difference of opinions in a civilized, courteous way.

if every rock, every peasant, every wine flagon held some secret meaning and symbolism it would detract value and weight from the real symbolism and complexity of the book, becoming rather pedant and pompous.

even george once said (i don't recall when) that sometimes, fans read to much and too deep into simple things. there is a lot of symbolism in asoiaf, and i love to search them in every re-read, but this particular occasion that you are saying i don't see nothing of substance other than people giving gifts based on their personalities, rank and relationship to the king.

A knight give silver spurs, and the lord of the biggest fleet in westeros gives the model of a galley, jeez i wonder why.

i respect your opinion, respect my

cheers.

If you don't have something constructive to say about the original post, you should stay off the thread.

I didn't need your condescending order to "relax" when I know my topic was worth discussing. I responded with irony as a way of calling attention to the lack of substance in your superficial opinion (not to mention gratuitous profanity) in response to my content-filled post. Now you have responded to my irony with a lecture on courtesy! I can tell you feel humiliated by the fact that I exposed your callowness for all to see. Instead of lashing out yet again, why don't you take a long walk and internalize the lesson that you shouldn't comment unless you have something of substance to say? Learn, too, that no one here wants a lecture on how to enjoy the books on a more superficial level. You may be militantly superficial, but you cannot force other people to conform to your point of view.

I do not come to this forum to read people's opinions, I come here for give and take about the substance of the books. You appear to offer none so you can stay away from my threads.

I respect that you are a child, and you will mature some day. Meanwhile, I am blocking you so I will not see any further tantrum you might post in response.

Cheers, little one!

[Springwatch]

I for one am enjoying the thread. I suspect the minor gifts are just a scrap of a hint about the future of the giver, so:

Cersei: the wife's cloak that he would drape over Margaery's shoulders. "It is the cloak I donned when Robert took me for his queen, the same cloak my mother Lady Joanna wore when wed to my lord father." Sansa thought it looked threadbare, if truth be told, but perhaps because it was so used.

Cloaks are for protection; the Lannisters have been protected by their powerful family, but that protection is looking threadbare.

Jalabhar Xho:a great bow of golden wood and quiver of long arrows fletched with green and scarlet feathers;

Jalabhar gives a weapon - he is still a fighter. (My interpretation: gold for glory, green for ambition, red for blood.)

Lady Tanda: a pair of supple riding boots;

Not so good; boots get walked on. Lady Tanda later dies following a riding accident.

Ser Kevan: a magnificent red leather jousting saddle;

Kevan is sort of a warrior, but this is not a weapon. Kevan's role is to support the family.

Prince Oberyn: a red gold brooch wrought in the shape of a scorpion;

As said by earlier posters: this is a direct threat.

Ser Addam Marbrand: silver spurs;

Spurs might represent knighthood, or impatience or even cruelty. (Silver is often associated with the power to harm.) Adam serves as commander of the city watch and appears competent.

Lord Mathis Rowan: a red silk tourney pavilion.

Represents the siege of Storm's End.

Lord Paxter Redwyne: a beautiful wooden model of the war galley of two hundred oars being built even now on the Arbor.

Admiral of the Fleet.

The major gifts - the book, the chalice and the sword - probably don't fit this pattern, but are definitely worth interpretation.

[Springwatch]

On 8/31/2016 at 0:14 AM, Seams said:

This was the quote about Bran that I had in mind:

. . . he slipped his skin, and reached for Hodor.

It was not like sliding into Summer. That was so easy now that Bran hardly thought about it. This was harder, like trying to pull a left boot on your right foot. It fit all wrong, and the boot was scared too, the boot didn't know what was happening, the boot was pushing the foot away. He tasted vomit in the back of Hodor's throat, and that was almost enough to make him flee. Instead he squirmed and shoved, sat up, gathered his legs under him—his huge strong legs—and rose. I'm standing. He took a step. I'm walking.

(ASoS, Bran IV)

It just occurred to me that Tommen also received a gift of Boots, in kitten form. Makes the quote above very suggestive.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Ser Kevan: a magnificent red leather jousting saddle;

Kevan is sort of a warrior, but this is not a weapon. Kevan's role is to support the family.

 

Your list is awesome. Good work.

Another thought I had about the saddle from uncle Kevan is maybe subconsciously Kevan was saying to Joffery, "you are no real threat," because jousting is not a real battle, but a mock display of power with the intent to unseat the opposition. Just a thought.

[The Fattest Leech]

4 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Lord Paxter Redwyne: a beautiful wooden model of the war galley of two hundred oars being built even now on the Arbor.

Admiral of the Fleet.

The major gifts - the book, the chalice and the sword - probably don't fit this pattern, but are definitely worth interpretation.

Ok, one more. This could have been a little foreshadowing of the Redwyne fleet going into battle for the crown with the Greyjoys? Now, whether his loyalty to the crown means Lannister or Tyrell (based on scheming), we won't really know until Winds when we will probably see that fleet again if Euron pops up around there.

[Springwatch]

Yeah, Kevan chose a good present  - Joff's a bit of a fake as a fighter, and as a king.

2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Ok, one more. This could have been a little foreshadowing of the Redwyne fleet going into battle for the crown with the Greyjoys? Now, whether his loyalty to the crown means Lannister or Tyrell (based on scheming), we won't really know until Winds when we will probably see that fleet again if Euron pops up around there.

I think you're right. I think all these gift givers are highlighted because they make a significant difference to the plot (even just by dying!).

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 30-8-2016 at 3:44 AM, Seams said:

Prince Oberyn: a red gold brooch wrought in the shape of a scorpion;

I always thought Oberyn's gift was a direct reference to this:

“When the Young Dragon conquered Dorne so long ago, he left the Lord of Highgarden to rule us after the Submission of Sunspear. This Tyrell moved with his tail from keep to keep, chasing rebels and making certain that our knees stayed bent. He would arrive in force, take a castle for his own, stay a moon’s turn, and ride on to the next castle. It was his custom to turn the lords out of their own chambers and take their beds for himself. One night he found himself beneath a heavy velvet canopy. A sash hung down near the pillows, should he wish to summon a wench. He had a taste for Dornish women, this Lord Tyrell, and who can blame him? So he pulled upon the sash, and when he did the canopy above him split open, and a hundred red scorpions fell down upon his head. His death lit a fire that soon swept across Dorne, undoing all the Young Dragon’s victories in a fortnight. The kneeling men stood up, and we were free again.”

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I for one am enjoying the thread. I suspect the minor gifts are just a scrap of a hint about the future of the giver, so:

Cersei: the wife's cloak that he would drape over Margaery's shoulders. "It is the cloak I donned when Robert took me for his queen, the same cloak my mother Lady Joanna wore when wed to my lord father." Sansa thought it looked threadbare, if truth be told, but perhaps because it was so used.

Cloaks are for protection; the Lannisters have been protected by their powerful family, but that protection is looking threadbare.

Jalabhar Xho:a great bow of golden wood and quiver of long arrows fletched with green and scarlet feathers;

Jalabhar gives a weapon - he is still a fighter. (My interpretation: gold for glory, green for ambition, red for blood.)

 

Aha! I had been thinking the gifts signaled something about expectations for Joffrey, but it could go the other way, too, telling us things about the givers.

The threadbare cloak is a good symbol of Cersei. Not only did it originate with a Lannister-to-Lannister wedding, but it is threadbare.

Jalabhar Xho is from the Summer Isles, and his own colors, including his feathered cloak, are red and green. We have seen Summer Islanders in some key places - Alleras in Oldtown is half Summer Islander, and a Summer Islander who pulls Sam out of the canal in Braavos and helps him find a ship to continue his journey. Any others? Jalabhar Xho will be one of the people Cersei arranges to have falsely accused of sleeping with Margaery. If he survives, he is probably going to be super-anti-Lannister. If he finds a way to get back into power, or someone to team up with, will he turn on Cersei and the Lannisters? (Maybe he already is anti-Lannister - he would be an excellent candidate for the informer who keeps the Martells in-the-know about what's going on at the court in the Red Keep.)

So many of the gifts are about jousting and combat. What did these people envision for Joffrey's future?

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Another thought I had about the saddle from uncle Kevan is maybe subconsciously Kevan was saying to Joffery, "you are no real threat," because jousting is not a real battle, but a mock display of power with the intent to unseat the opposition. Just a thought.

Joffrey gets a lot of red, even this red leather saddle, I'm thinking, and not much gold. You'd think Cersei would put the word out that she wants Joffrey armored in gold, like Jaime wears. Maybe matching colors isn't significant. There does seem to be a blood motif, though.

There has been some excellent analysis of jousting matches by sweetsunray (and maybe others) to show that they foreshadow major conflicts and other plot developments that will arise. Maybe the fact that Joffrey never does more jousting and swordplay than destroy a single book with his sword shows that his story is coming to an end.

Some discussion on another thread finally helped me to noticed that Craster was the only person in his keep who had a chair. I think it's a symbolic throne. So saddles are probably important, too. Bran goes into a feast riding a horse and exits "riding" Hodor; Tywin rides a horse up to the Iron Throne, where the horse deposits a manure pile. Dany receives a horse at her wedding, and immediately exceeds all of her previous riding experiences and leaps over a fire on the back of the galloping horse. Maybe the symbolism here is that Joffrey never gets a chance to use the saddle.

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

I always thought Oberyn's gift was a direct reference to this:

... and a hundred red scorpions fell down upon his head. His death lit a fire that soon swept across Dorne, undoing all the Young Dragon’s victories in a fortnight. The kneeling men stood up, and we were free again.”

This is excellent! I bet you're right. And the Sand Snakes could represent the "Dornish women" that the Lord thought he was summoning. Or maybe they are the other 99 scorpions, ready to be unleashed on Westeros.

I'm thinking we are probably meant to compare Joffrey's gifts to Dany's wedding gifts. That's the only other place where we are given a list of gifts, isn't it? Here's a summary from the chapter index:

As the sun sets, Daenerys receives her bride gifts. Viserys gives her three hand maids that cost him nothing, picked to teach her what she needs to know: Irri (to teach her how to ride), Jhiqui (to teach her the Dothraki tongue) and Doreah (to teach her the arts of love). Ser Jorah, with an apology since it was all he could afford, gives her a stack of old books in the Common Tongue, and she thanks him with all her heart. Illyrio gives her fine silks and fabrics, and three huge dragon's eggs: one is green, one is cream-colored, and one is black with scarlet ripples and swirls. Illyrio tells her that they have turned to stone over the years. Khal Drogo's bloodriders give her the traditional three weapons, which she refuses with the traditional refusals and passes to her husband. Many other gifts come from the other Dothraki.

Last of all Drogo brings forward his own bride gift, a fine grey filly. Drogo easily lifts her by the waist up to the saddle. She does not know what to do. Ser Jorah tells her to take the reins and ride. She is only a fair rider, having traveled almost exclusively by other means, but as she rides, she forgets her fears and eventually sends the horse into a gallop, and even has it leap over a firepit. She returns and tells Illyrio to tell her husband that he has given her the wind, and Drogo smiles. (AGoT, Chapter 11)

So we see Dany actually riding, not just receiving riding equipment. She is effusively grateful for the books. The fabrics are fine and uncut. She does not take up the weapons. Lots of things to contrast with Joffrey.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

13 hours ago, Seams said:

This is excellent! I bet you're right. And the Sand Snakes could represent the "Dornish women" that the Lord thought he was summoning. Or maybe they are the other 99 scorpions, ready to be unleashed on Westeros.

I was thinking in more general terms. The young King (Daeron I Targaryen/Joffrey I Targaryen) demanded fealthy from the Dornishmen. After the scorpion-indicent, Dorne soon freed itself from Daeron's power. The gift of the red scorpion from Oberyn to Joffrey is, I think, therefore a subtle hint that Dorne is not willing to submit to the young Baratheon king, and that Dorne will soon be free once more.

 

13 hours ago, Seams said:

I'm thinking we are probably meant to compare Joffrey's gifts to Dany's wedding gifts. That's the only other place where we are given a list of gifts, isn't it? Here's a summary from the chapter index:

As the sun sets, Daenerys receives her bride gifts. Viserys gives her three hand maids that cost him nothing, picked to teach her what she needs to know: Irri (to teach her how to ride), Jhiqui (to teach her the Dothraki tongue) and Doreah (to teach her the arts of love). Ser Jorah, with an apology since it was all he could afford, gives her a stack of old books in the Common Tongue, and she thanks him with all her heart. Illyrio gives her fine silks and fabrics, and three huge dragon's eggs: one is green, one is cream-colored, and one is black with scarlet ripples and swirls. Illyrio tells her that they have turned to stone over the years. Khal Drogo's bloodriders give her the traditional three weapons, which she refuses with the traditional refusals and passes to her husband. Many other gifts come from the other Dothraki.

Last of all Drogo brings forward his own bride gift, a fine grey filly. Drogo easily lifts her by the waist up to the saddle. She does not know what to do. Ser Jorah tells her to take the reins and ride. She is only a fair rider, having traveled almost exclusively by other means, but as she rides, she forgets her fears and eventually sends the horse into a gallop, and even has it leap over a firepit. She returns and tells Illyrio to tell her husband that he has given her the wind, and Drogo smiles. (AGoT, Chapter 11)

So we see Dany actually riding, not just receiving riding equipment. She is effusively grateful for the books. The fabrics are fine and uncut. She does not take up the weapons. Lots of things to contrast with Joffrey.

Interesting. Joffrey receives several gifts that are trying to make him look like more knightly: the riding boots, the jousting saddle, the silver spurs, a tourney pavillion, even the bow could fit in here. Meanwhile, he also receives several gifts that are trying to emphasize his Lannister heritage (the wedding cloak and the sword). 

Dany's wedding gifts also emphasize her heritage (the books in the Common Tongue, and the dragon eggs), as well are meant to make her fit in better with the Dothraki. So there's a parallel there as well.

[Byfort of Corfe]

While we are on the subject of wedding presents I have a question, did Tywin give Joffrey and Jaime cursed weapons?

 

Tyrion notes that the colors on the sword are uncommon, that Valyrian steel is usually a very dark grey, almost black.  But he notes that this sword has red, almost as deep a color but that the two colors lapped over one another without touching, like "waves of night and blood upon some steely shore".

 

The armourer continues that Tywin had asked for crimson but "I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it.  And some folds would not take the red at all... "   Now the armourer had also told them the Valyrian Steel remembered and was stubborn.

 

Now since the two swords were being forged from the steel that had made the Stark sword "Ice" I wonder if the blade "remembers" and feels that the Lannisters are not worthy of it?  After all grey is also a Stark color and it seems to be drinking in the attempts to make it crimson.  Now Joffrey dies almost immediately after receiving his blade.  Jaime, almost as quickly, gives his to Brienne, who will of course use it in service to the Starks. 

 

Now at the very least I think that the swords are a portent of things to come.  This is at House Starks lowest ebb, the Red Wedding has just happened, as far as anyone knows Bran and Rickon are dead, Winterfell lies in ruins, Arya is missing and presumed dead and Sansa has been given to the Imp. Yet the grey is battling the Crimson.  However I also think that there is a strong possibility that these swords remember where the came from, that their steel is meant to be wielded for House Stark not against it and it's bad luck for any Lannsiter carrying one, which, IMO is bad news for Tommen since he probably inherited it after Joffrey's death.

 

 

[Seams]

22 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

While we are on the subject of wedding presents I have a question, did Tywin give Joffrey and Jaime cursed weapons?

Tyrion notes that the colors on the sword are uncommon, that Valyrian steel is usually a very dark grey, almost black.  But he notes that this sword has red, almost as deep a color but that the two colors lapped over one another without touching, like "waves of night and blood upon some steely shore".

The armourer continues that Tywin had asked for crimson but "I worked half a hundred spells and brightened the red time and time again but always the color would darken, as if the blade was drinking the sun from it.  And some folds would not take the red at all... "   Now the armourer had also told them the Valyrian Steel remembered and was stubborn.

Now since the two swords were being forged from the steel that had made the Stark sword "Ice" I wonder if the blade "remembers" and feels that the Lannisters are not worthy of it?  After all grey is also a Stark color and it seems to be drinking in the attempts to make it crimson.  Now Joffrey dies almost immediately after receiving his blade.  Jaime, almost as quickly, gives his to Brienne, who will of course use it in service to the Starks.

Now at the very least I think that the swords are a portent of things to come.  This is at House Starks lowest ebb, the Red Wedding has just happened, as far as anyone knows Bran and Rickon are dead, Winterfell lies in ruins, Arya is missing and presumed dead and Sansa has been given to the Imp. Yet the grey is battling the Crimson.  However I also think that there is a strong possibility that these swords remember where the came from, that their steel is meant to be wielded for House Stark not against it and it's bad luck for any Lannsiter carrying one, which, IMO is bad news for Tommen since he probably inherited it after Joffrey's death.

I like your thinking. I keep going back to my own old posts, but I agree that Tywin consciously uses magic and that he may have used a sword to kill Joffrey.

Actually, earlier today I was thinking about the contrast in Dany and Joffrey's reactions to their wedding gifts and thinking that Dany gave the "traditional refusals" when the bloodriders offered her three weapons. Joffrey accepted the arrows and the sword from Tywin. The third weapon offered to him as part of the wedding ceremony may have been the dagger that Tyrion promised to give him to replace the destroyed book, but the third weapon that Joffrey accepted was the sword from Ser Ilyn. It wasn't a gift, technically, unless it was "giftig," which is the German word for poisonous.

Apparently the author has given an interview saying that the sword Widow's Wail is still at the Red Keep. (I haven't seen the interview, so I don't know if this is true.) Otherwise, there had been speculation that Widow's Wail was the sword with the ruby on the hilt that Tommen gave to Ser Loras before he went off and got cut up and burnt and hammered.

I am also trying to pull together some old ideas about Theon Greyjoy as the personification of the sword Ice. While I was researching Theon ideas, though, I realized that Joffrey is also treated like a sword in a forge as he is dying - people pounding on his back, his face turns from red to black, Mace Tyrell is bellowing (a smith uses a bellows). I don't know what to make of Joffrey as a sword, except I've had this suspicion for awhile that Joffrey is a sort of weird parody of Azor Ahai - his first sword, Lion's Tooth is plunged into water when Arya throws it into a river. We don't know the current whereabouts of his second sword - maybe Hearteater is the one that Tommen gave to Ser Loras. If the notion is true that the third sword, Widow's Wail, has something to do with his death, maybe it's a match for Azor Ahai's second sword, which is plunged into the heart of a lion.

I'm not sure if Oathkeeper is a cursed weapon. As you point out, it may be a happy sword to be working for Brienne and Lady Stoneheart. Or its curse may have been neutralized because Jaime didn't accept it. With his kingslayer hand severed from his body, Jaime may be free of Tywin's attempts to use him as a weapon.

Tommen had a practice sword fight with Bran at Winterfell, and there is some early stuff in ACoK where Bran and Tommen seem to be symbolically engaged in jousting (Tommen is at Joffrey's nameday tournament and Bran is at Winterfell, thinking about being a knight). To me, the subtext is indicating that Tommen and Bran will engage in some kind of life or death battle at some point in the future. A straw man will also be involved, if I've read the symbolism correctly. Wish I knew more about that.

[YOVMO]

On August 29, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Seams said:

The scorpion pin seems to imply a surprise attack by poison, to me. Can't imagine why Oberyn would think that was an appropriate gift for a Lannister.

a great topic and one I have thought much about. A few things on scorpions that may help you out here. Scorpions are unique in being the only animal that will attack its own as readily as it will attack another animal. A common truism is that if you put 100 scorpions under a glass in a day or two there would only be 14. they are all linked by being the same thing (obviously i am thinking linked by blood) but they do not differentiate between other scorpions and other animals. Everything is to be attacked.

 

Another thing, near the end of the 40 years of travel in the desert after the exodus from egypt one of the things Moses specifically says to be thankful for is that they weren't killed by scorpions. 

 

Once again from the bible: a Christ quote (you are going to love this one I know) If a son shall ask of his father an egg, will he give him a scorpion?"

 

Also Christ gives his disciples the power to "tread on serpents and scorpions"

 

More

1 Kings 12:11 Whereas my father loaded you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke; my father disciplined you with whips, but I will discipline you with scorpions

 

Here is a good one from the bible in context specifically of the mountain (though I don't know how long Qyburn's work actually took) 

And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man

 

Moving away from the bible to dream analysis. The scorpion represents that a person may be deceived. A scorpion crawling on ones bed in a dream represents that inside the group of people you trust there is someone who will betray you.

 

But by and far the best one.

 

In Macbeth

In Act III, scene ii of Macbeth, Macbeth says "O full of scorpions is my mind... thou knowst that Banquo and his Fleance lives."

 

I would write this out but the e-notes description is more clearly written than I could express and it is so awesome This is so laden with apt meaning that I can't imagine GRRM wasn't actively thinking of macbeth when he let the red viper give the scorpion. 

 

Have fun!

 

In Macbeth, Macbeth is deeply influenced by a prophesy the witches make when he and Banquo are returning from battle. In Act I, scene iii, Macbeth comments on the day being "foul and fair" (line 38). They have been victorious against the enemy (fair) and so Macbeth is cheerful and yet the weather is so stormy (foul). Of course, this foreshadows later events when the seemingly noble Macbeth will plot to kill his king and anyone who stands in the way of his kingdom - including Banquo. The witches tell Macbeth that not only will he be Thane of Cawdor, but he will be king. This unsettles Macbeth when, due to his valor in battle, Duncan does give him the title, leading Macbeth, with Lady Macbeth's help, to further his "vaulting ambition" (I.vii.27).  

Once Duncan, the king, has been murdered and Macbeth, initially tormented by his own remorse, has realized that, although he is now king, the witches foretold that Banquo's sons would also be kings, Macbeth feels that he must act against Banquo because, as the witches prophecies have been true thus far, then he (Macbeth) is not safe, saying that Banquo has the capacity to spoil everything: "Under him, my Genius is rebuked" (III.i.55). Macbeth is angry that he has possibly murdered "the gracious Duncan" (65) for the benefit of Banquo's heirs. 

Macbeth elicits the help of two murderers and convinces them that they should murder Banquo. He tells them that he would do it himself if he could. He also tells them to be sure to kill Fleance, Banquo's son who must also "embrace the fate of that dark hour" (136). Lady Macbeth notices that Macbeth is preoccupied and tells him not to worry because "What's done is done" (III.ii.12). She has no idea that he is plotting his next murder although he does tell her that the matter is not closed because "We have scotched the snake, not killed it" (13), indicating that his kingdom is in jeopardy. Lady Macbeth encourages Macbeth to "leave this" (35) and not worry; this is when he advises her that his "mind is full of scorpions" (36), knowing that Banquo and Fleance are alive. 

Macbeth is trying to tell Lady Macbeth that he cannot rest or enjoy his kingdom because his mind is unsettled. Just as a scorpion sting would hurt and make a person restless, so too do Macbeth's thoughts. Scorpions inflict much pain and therefore the reference to them is two-fold. They cause Macbeth pain but they also give him the courage to cause others pain in the pursuit of absolute power. So, for Macbeth, the scorpion reference is indicative of how he confuses his quest for power with pain - his own and others.